Toughness/reflex and the uber-melee fighter

[DeletedUser]

Adelei Niska, have you ever tried to have a conversation with anybody without trying to belittle people or starting a fight?

I'll be nicer if you be smarter.

Any case, this link is not for you (since it cannot be scientifically proven - everybody else lies, right?) For the rest of the community, see http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=227485&postcount=35 - toughness/reflex build can easily be beaten, as kman288 had also said.

This was discussed before. Please try to keep up with the conversation... To get this, even as other players admitted, you have to abandon all other fighting skills and become a player so focused on Shooting or Vigor that you are useless in duels other than fighting against a high resistance player...

In other words...this just PROVES what I've been saying all along... Resistances are out of whack and need to be retooled.

 

[DeletedUser]

How does someone with a high appearance, or high tactics if on defense, weigh into this?

 

[DeletedUser]

How does someone with a high appearance, or high tactics if on defense, weigh into this?

Not well at all.

Appearance and Tactics only affect the ability to hit, not the ability to do damage.

Again, to hit dueling skills follow the law of diminishing returns. That is, the more over-powered your skill is, the less benefit you will get out of putting more points into that skill. Because of that, it's almost impossible to avoid being hit at all (or, always hitting no matter what).

The high resistance character won't put (read waste) any points on dodging. All those points will go to the resistances. So, your Appearance points are also wasted. The high resistance character doesn't care about getting hit...your hits are going to do close to nothing.

So, the battle will end up looking like this...

You hit for 10 points -- they miss
You hit for 11 points -- they miss
You hit for 10 points -- they miss
You hit for 14 points -- they miss
You hit for 12 points -- they miss
You hit for 11 points -- they miss
You hit for 15 points -- they miss
You hit for 11 points -- they hit for 136 points.

They win.

 

[DeletedUser]

If shooting and resistance (tough/reflex) roughly cancel out a balanced build should win. Because if you are doing about the same amount of damage then dodging a couple extra will win the fight.

The real strength of this build is the point efficiency. Putting one stat point into strength gets you attack and defence (and health) then you only need a bit of aim. Meanwhile for shooting one stat will get you defence or damage (and aim). It also helps that strength has lots of nice early jobs with multiple strength skills (probably intended for workers) over shooting.

 

[DeletedUser]

If shooting and resistance (tough/reflex) roughly cancel out a balanced build should win. Because if you are doing about the same amount of damage then dodging a couple extra will win the fight.

I would reserve your speculations until you actually experience this...

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not sure how accurate your law of diminishing returns is. I've had plenty of experience where even with 40-70 tactics and 30-50 aim I've still seen plenty of reports with 0 hits against the aggressor. With 30-50 dodge and 40-70 tactics, I still see lots of reports where the aggressor hit every single time.

I also see that there are items there that can quickly add up to HUGE dueling bonuses, especially for shooters.

With next to no aim and appearance, this super-build (I refuse to translate super to German just to sound cool) is hardly going to be an aggressor. Why not just leave the poor f**ker alone and fight someone else if you can't beat him?

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not sure how accurate your law of diminishing returns is. I've had plenty of experience where even with 40-70 tactics and 30-50 aim I've still seen plenty of reports with 0 hits against the aggressor. With 30-50 dodge and 40-70 tactics, I still see lots of reports where the aggressor hit every single time.

Without exact knowledge of the other person's stats, where they aimed for, how you dodged...er...what did you want us to get out of this, again?

I also see that there are items there that can quickly add up to HUGE dueling bonuses, especially for shooters.

There are items that are good for any build...

With next to no aim and appearance, this super-build (I refuse to translate super to German just to sound cool) is hardly going to be an aggressor. Why not just leave the poor f**ker alone and fight someone else if you can't beat him?

Er...let me guess. Your character (are you even a dueler?) is somewhere in the 30's or so, right?

Come back when you know what you're talking about.

 

[DeletedUser]

Without exact knowledge of the other person's stats, where they aimed for, how you dodged...er...what did you want us to get out of this, again?



There are items that are good for any build...



Er...let me guess. Your character (are you even a dueler?) is somewhere in the 30's or so, right?

Come back when you know what you're talking about.

You are one foul tempered, pretentious SOB, I'll give you that.

I'm in the 50's thank you, I gave up dueling actively as near-pointless in the late 20's. There is just far greater reward for honest work.

For your first comment, I can gleam a lot. In fact, you smug prick, I have asked the aggressor in a jovial manner when I got horribly beaten and they were kind enough to give me detail on occasion. I can also make some degree of estimation from their level and equipment, but as you are too busy being abusive, you may not have considered any of this.

For your second point, no kidding, genius, but there consistently better items for a dedicated offensive ranged dueler than there are to support this supposed super-man that you're whining about.

For your last point, what was it again?

At any rate, I've said my bit, and OBVIOUSLY you know far better, so I'll not waste my breath arguing with a wall.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm in the 50's thank you, I gave up dueling actively as near-pointless in the late 20's.

Thank you for confirming that you in fact don't know what you're talking about.

 

[DeletedUser]

There's not a resistance build on W6 yet that i can't beat handily (except i lost one today cause i forgot to do headshots, he's a higher level than me, and he has hernando's sword, but i still would a won if i'd remembered to switch to head shots!).

I fail to see how a resistance build is overpowered since duelists can easily build a very effective shooting/aim/dodge/appearance build that wack them in the arse and send them packing into KO oblivion.

Or is everyone's problem with the resistance build that everyone is a pansy soldier today with their atts split up all over the place in dex/charisma tactics/appearance so they can be the Flavor of Last Month build?

Har Har...something a soldier can't do best...beat a resistance build...unless they ignore tactics and build likea duelist.

It's almost ironic.

Please, lets have MORE resist builds on W6, i'm working on compiling a list so i know who to visit when my motivation is up!

If a resist build doesn't go with balanced reflex/toughness, then he is very vulnerable to the opposite attack than he is focusing on the resist of.

If he does go balanced, then someone focused on shooting as a primary skill and aim/dodge/appearance as secondaries can easily beat him by avoiding enough hits and using headshots since the resist build has no dodge. If the resist build DOES have dodge, then he has even less resistance and thus is not a resisty enough build to beat anyone worth their salt.

There is a great deal of rock (or bag) paper scissors coming to light in The West dueling since people have progressed from launch and learned to game the systems and builds.

Get used to it and get over it, you can't be a god in the west, someone will always have the build to beat you.

The only complaint i possibly find valid about resist melee fighters doesn't have anything to do with their build or them at all...just the hernando's sword quest which puts such an amazingly overpowered weapon in the hands of mele fighters that ranged can't hope to match (and ranged fighters are dodge fighters, not resist, they get the stick on quest gear).

 

[DeletedUser]

For your second point, no kidding, genius, but there consistently better items for a dedicated offensive ranged dueler than there are to support this supposed super-man that you're whining about.

Just for fun, let's thrash this little piece of disinformation.

Fancy Leather Hat
+9 Toughness
+15 Reflex

Fancy Leather Jacket
+16 Toughness

Brown Boots
+12 Toughness

Remember that 1/2 of one resistance counts towards the other. So, the Fancy Leather Hat really is:
+16 Toughness
+19 Reflex(and so on for the other items...)

The rest of the stats on those items aren't bad, either....

 

[DeletedUser]

Just for fun, let's thrash this little piece of disinformation.

Fancy Leather Hat
+9 Toughness
+15 Reflex

Fancy Leather Jacket
+16 Toughness

Brown Boots
+12 Toughness

Remember that 1/2 of one resistance counts towards the other. So, the Fancy Leather Hat really is:
+16 Toughness
+19 Reflex(and so on for the other items...)

The rest of the stats on those items aren't bad, either....

There's some gear that gives 15+ shooting as well as other dueler appropriate bonuses.

I would say they are fairly even, they both have great gear available.

However, in your examples, you should show all the bonuses on the gear and pick ones that are best, imho. You did not show the best resist boots, nor all the bonuses on the hat that help the resist fighter.

The hat you mentioned also includes 8 aim, and their are boots that give 9 reflex and 9toughness which is better for a resist fighter than brown boots are.

Also the fancy dress coat gives a total of 14 reflex 9 vigor 9 aim which is a better resist fighter coat than the one you mentioned.

All this gear is closely matched though for ranged fighters with health tactics shooting and dodge bonuses that are just as good when added up across the whole set of gear.

Some may be better in one slot and not as good in another.

 

[DeletedUser]

There's some gear that gives 15+ shooting as well as other dueler appropriate bonuses.

I would say they are fairly even, they both have great gear available.

I was disproving the point of Jozen who said:

"For your second point, no kidding, genius, but there consistently better items for a dedicated offensive ranged dueler than there are to support this supposed super-man that you're whining about."



I'm glad you agree with me!

 

[DeletedUser]

Why would I bother? You have to actually present something as evidence before that evidence can be called BS... What we have from you is no better than, "I heard it from some guy off the internet" type of claim... Not really worth anyone's time.

i actually DO have the support to back this up. however, i choose not to, because i don't want to give out my own or anyone else's dueling build. i am 100% confident that you are completely wrong, and i don't feel i actually need to give the evidence, especially since you have shown that you are excellent at ignoring everything that doesn't support your position, and the points that you don't ignore you make fun of by bringing up your conclusion, which is completely wrong. i have stated my evidence, and until i get permission from both sides in the duel, i won't be posting anything for you, your thickheaded majesty.

Dodge and tactics aren't enough of a balance? Well...maybe they aren't...but resistances aren't the only "balance" to offensive skills that are out there. In any event, you give absolutely no reason that increasing one type of resistance should affect the other type of resistance. If I have a high shooting...does that affect how well I can do damage with melee weapons? Of course not.

valid point, but if you got shot, your a tough person would be able to handle it more than a wimp. same goes with when your attacked by a sword, your reflexes can help limit the damage.

It is not because not many use it, but because it is over-powered. Period. And it doesn't use Vigor. One resistance is in the Str category as is Vigor, but it does not "use" Vigor.

many resistance fighters go with vigor weapons. i dont understand why someone wouldn't. you put your attributes into strength, and get vigor, toughness, and health. put skill points into reflexes and toughness, and a little bit of aim. so yes, when you do think about it, when making this build you do get points in vigor when improving your toughness.

Do you even have a high level dueler who has fought against people with high resistances? I really question that you have any idea of what you are talking about.

yes, i do. you can find me on w1. i am level 58, with a dueling level of 97, and i didn't duel for about a month to avoid getting an overly high dueling level. if i hadn't done that, i could be on the first few pages of the dueling rankings, rather than being at rank 63. you can check the spoiler in my signature as well.
and i do actually fight against these high resistance fighters. and i win. as do my friends.
i am an honest person with no reason to lie about actually having seen these reports. they are the reason why i know for a fact that you are wrong. i think your just angry cause you can't beat the high resistance duelers yourself.

 

[DeletedUser]

i actually DO have the support to back this up. however, i choose not to, because i don't want to give out my own or anyone else's dueling build.

And you'd agree, I assume, that no one has any reason to believe you without your backing it up...

i am 100% confident that you are completely wrong, and i don't feel i actually need to give the evidence, especially since you have shown that you are excellent at ignoring everything that doesn't support your position, and the points that you don't ignore you make fun of by bringing up your conclusion, which is completely wrong.

You mean like statements where people make claims without backing them up? Like you? Again, why should I believe such a statement. You can state that you are "100% confident" all you like. That doesn't mean that I have any reason to believe you...

i have stated my evidence, and until i get permission from both sides in the duel, i won't be posting anything for you, your thickheaded majesty.

You haven't stated ANY EVIDENCE! You just got done stating that. So don't claim that you "stated your evidence"... Did you even read what you wrote?

valid point, but if you got shot, your a tough person would be able to handle it more than a wimp. same goes with when your attacked by a sword, your reflexes can help limit the damage.

Now you're trying to make real life justifications based on the names of the skills to what are clearly game mechanics... Completely absurd.

many resistance fighters go with vigor weapons. i dont understand why someone wouldn't.

I don't either. It is clearly biased towards vigor weapons.. That's one of my complaints...

But the fact remains that putting points into VIGOR, like you originally said, doesn't do squat. It's putting points into STR.

yes, i do. you can find me on w1. i am level 58, with a dueling level of 97, and i didn't duel for about a month to avoid getting an overly high dueling level. if i hadn't done that, i could be on the first few pages of the dueling rankings, rather than being at rank 63. you can check the spoiler in my signature as well.
and i do actually fight against these high resistance fighters. and i win. as do my friends.
i am an honest person with no reason to lie about actually having seen these reports. they are the reason why i know for a fact that you are wrong. i think your just angry cause you can't beat the high resistance duelers yourself.

This is an Ad Hominem fallacy. You are full of bad logic.

In any event, you still haven't provided even a shred of proof...so your claims are easily dismissed.

 

[DeletedUser]

And you'd agree, I assume, that no one has any reason to believe you without your backing it up...

someone who knows me would.

You mean like statements where people make claims without backing them up? Like you? Again, why should I believe such a statement. You can state that you are "100% confident" all you like. That doesn't mean that I have any reason to believe you...

i have the support, but i would rather honor my enemies wishes than give you what you are begging for.

You haven't stated ANY EVIDENCE! You just got done stating that. So don't claim that you "stated your evidence"... Did you even read what you wrote?

yes i did thank you, and you are again coming to conclusions way too quickly. yes, i have stated my evidence. no, i have not shown it to you.

Now you're trying to make real life justifications based on the names of the skills to what are clearly game mechanics... Completely absurd.

well you seem to have a similar backup of why vigor doesn't improve the damage you cause when using a ranged weapon. in some causes, it could make sense, such as with the throwing knives.

I don't either. It is clearly biased towards vigor weapons.. That's one of my complaints...

im not complaining, im pointing out one of the factors that makes the resistance build a good one.

But the fact remains that putting points into VIGOR, like you originally said, doesn't do squat. It's putting points into STR.

i never said anything about putting points into vigor. but to make you happy, i'll edit what i originally wrote, because i'll admit that it wasn't perfectly clear

This is an Ad Hominem fallacy. You are full of bad logic.

In any event, you still haven't provided even a shred of proof...so your claims are easily dismissed.

and why shouldn't yours be either? i have read through this entire thread, and correct me if im wrong, but not once do i recall you posting your own support. if you want support so bad, then stop tossing aside other people's arguments and show us your own. and no, the fact that each skill point counts for 1.5 skill points in a duel isn't support, thats just something that looks good on paper.

 

[DeletedUser]

someone who knows me would.

Then you admit that I have no reason to believe you. Good.

i have the support, but i would rather honor my enemies wishes than give you what you are begging for.

Begging? Nah... Not any more than I am "begging" for someone to back up their claim that the Easter Bunny is real.

yes i did thank you, and you are again coming to conclusions way too quickly. yes, i have stated my evidence. no, i have not shown it to you.

You have CLAIMED to have evidence. You have not STATED any evidence. Big difference.

well you seem to have a similar backup of why vigor doesn't improve the damage you cause when using a ranged weapon. in some causes, it could make sense, such as with the throwing knives.

What are you talking about?
Do you really think that "toughness" would mean that someone slashed with a sword 8 times means that they only received a minor flesh wound rather than someone "wimpy" would be killed?

This has to be the most pathetic argument I've read on this debate...

im not complaining, im pointing out one of the factors that makes the resistance build a good one.

Can you read? I said that was one of MY complaints...

i never said anything about putting points into vigor. but to make you happy, i'll edit what i originally wrote, because i'll admit that it wasn't perfectly clear

You said, "so in a way, the toughness/reflex build may be considered "uber", but thats mostly because of the fact that not many use it. and it uses vigor." (bold added, mine)

and why shouldn't yours be either? i have read through this entire thread, and correct me if im wrong, but not once do i recall you posting your own support. if you want support so bad, then stop tossing aside other people's arguments and show us your own. and no, the fact that each skill point counts for 1.5 skill points in a duel isn't support, thats just something that looks good on paper.

I did throw out numbers, both in this thread and on at least one other thread on the subject. Your reading comprehension is suspect. But, again, trying to find fault with my arguments isn't going to help your baseless claims. More bad logic on your part.

 

[DeletedUser]

I haven't read this for a while and my gripe isn't with the no dodging lots of resistance build, if a player wishes to go down that route then fine, however, I feel that D. Saint has a point. Hernando's Sword may only have a little extra in the damage department than a Precise Buntline or a Sharp Cavalry Sabre it is however available at a much lower level. I mean on world 6 no-one is anywhere near being able to arm themselves with either a Precise Buntline or a Sharp Cavalry Sabre.

If that weapon is available via a certain quest sequence then Ike's army revolver or Allen's pepperbox should be.

 

[DeletedUser]

I haven't read this for a while and my gripe isn't with the no dodging lots of resistance build, if a player wishes to go down that route then fine, however, I feel that D. Saint has a point. Hernando's Sword may only have a little extra in the damage department than a Precise Buntline or a Sharp Cavalry Sabre it is however available at a much lower level. I mean on world 6 no-one is anywhere near being able to arm themselves with either a Precise Buntline or a Sharp Cavalry Sabre.

If that weapon is available via a certain quest sequence then Ike's army revolver or Allen's pepperbox should be.

isn't there a level requirement of 70 or something to do the quest to get the sword? i think thats a pretty good limitation, as its not much sooner than you can equip a precise buntline.

 

[DeletedUser]

2 people saying "you are wrong, and clueless, but I'm not going to tell you why" aren't really adding much to the discussion.

I will say that as a soldier I overestimated the importance of tactics, aim and dodge because in practice they do have diminishing returns especially if the other party isn't trying to dodge at all (the resistance build). Whereas stacking shooting is good for jobs and trying to get through that resistance.

The only difference is that it does seem to me there's a lot of very good +vigor gear at low levels and that a ranged resistance build is pretty much impossible because one attribute point can not get shooting and a defence like it can for melee. That could be considered an imbalance.