Toughness/reflex and the uber-melee fighter

[DeletedUser]

Yeah I agree

Vigor may be better for dueling, but shooting gets jobs much quicker.

I think this is why corrosive acid and Hernando's Sword are melee, and why strength duelers are better, because they're making up for their lack of good jobs.

 

[DeletedUser]

My account been banned for the multiple. There should be a reason for banning me for multiple. I can't show prove that I'm not multiple.
I had explained I have only one account. What I need to prove for that I got only one and only account ?? I had asked to look into accusing me of multiple.

I had played this game for around 20 days. Donated 5 pounds so that I can play better.

Finally, I don't play this game anymore even if I am not banned because I am sure there is no experienced people working as the staff of the game.

Fair well..

 

[DeletedUser]

random ^^^

The argument has already been made well enough, but I'll second that things are much more balanced than the OP gives credit for.

Try being a melee soldier at all, regardless of whether it's a R/T build or not, and make it through your class quest. It's quite viable for a ranged soldier. Ranged duelers can get through their class quest with little trouble, too.

Ranged fighters get the jobs as well as being able to stand tall in a fight. Melee may have the capacity to be stronger in a fight, but it comes at a price...you have to weigh out what kind of game you want to have. If you want the flexibility to fight or work, you almost have to go with a ranged fighter.

 

[DeletedUser]

I am not sure if any of the players who claim this is an 'uber' build have actually played one of these.

If you had, the glaring flaws would be obvious. I have this build on the beta server, and granted I hold one of the top 3 ranks, but one of the other in the top 3, beats me 'every' time; and is a shooter.

Did it ever occur to you, that shooters can simply keep raising dex/shooting, and get aim and high end jobs too? So with a shooting of 200, which plenty of high level shooters have, how the hell will you get your reflex to keep up?

What, you invest everything into reflex and leave yourself open to other melee duelers? Or push up toughness and reflex and do no damage to other high toughness melee duelers? Or leave aim behind and get owned by anyone with high appearance/tactics?

There are SO many different builds that totally own this build that it's not even funny.


Before you go ranting off about how 'unbalanced' it is, and blah, blah, blah, try it.

Then again, if you did, you wouldn't be here complaining would you? You'd be moaning about how shooters are the 'uber' build and should be nerfed, or whichever build the last dueler that owned you had.

 

[DeletedUser]

It's just another build, besides the formula is:

dam(melle) = vigor +weapon - toughness - reflex/2
dam (range) = shooting + weapon -reflex - toughness/2

If that guy doesn't have anything in reflex, he's toast, even with all his toughness.

 

[DeletedUser]

It's just another build, besides the formula is:

dam(melle) = vigor +weapon - toughness - reflex/2
dam (range) = shooting + weapon -reflex - toughness/2

If that guy doesn't have anything in reflex, he's toast, even with all his toughness.

I wouldn't normaly flame someone but have you actualy read any of the thread?

This is with regards to players with high values in BOTH Reflex and Toughness not just 1

 

[DeletedUser]

boy how i like when dudes bang their head to the wall and instead of thinking how to climb the obstacle start saying its impossible or not fair

jesus frightened christ, should i suggest you ways how to overcome as you say "uber " build which is just outcome of how to overcome natural bonus from clothes ranged pricks have as azuk told ?...

you know what ? ive found another build how to beat those who managed to beat the "unbeatable" toughness/reflex build... how fair is that huh ? start complaining now and get less pity on future posts...

 

[DeletedUser]

If you had, the glaring flaws would be obvious. I have this build on the beta server, and granted I hold one of the top 3 ranks, but one of the other in the top 3, beats me 'every' time; and is a shooter.

Brilliant reasoning.

You are in the top 3 with this build.
One other guy can beat you.
Therefore it's not uber?

 

[DeletedUser]

yes its is, cus if you would be able beating everyone you would be the first.

you can climb very high just attacking those you can beat...

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm experimenting with this build and enjoying it so far. Strength gives you access to great jobs very early, far more so than shooting.

I do wish I had access to the black felt hat for my ranged soldier though. The soldier quest hat is melee and there's a real lack of good ranged hats.

 

[DeletedUser]

Brilliant reasoning.

You are in the top 3 with this build.
One other guy can beat you.
Therefore it's not uber?

can you see the difference between good, and uber. by your logic there anyone who is in the top 3 is using an uber unfair build. can't you guys just accept that, yah this build is good and can beat some people and guess what, your build beats alot of people too. just because there is one specific build tat beats yours doesnt mean its unfair.

 

[DeletedUser]

I have a question for you guys.

If you didn't care much for jobs, wouldn't a very high dodging build be good.
I mean if at level 50 you're sitting with something like:

90 Aim
50 Shooting
80 Dodging (as an approx. example)

You wouldn't do much damage, but you'd rarely get hit.

Because an 80 dodging probably wouldn't help. You may get hit less times, but if you get hit even once, you will most likely lose the fight.

All skills but Reflex / Toughness seem to work on the principle of the law of diminishing returns. That is, after you achieve a certain proficiency with a skill, the more points you put into that skill, the less effective those points become.

(fictional numbers to prove a point)
Lets say that you are fighting someone with a 40 Aim and you have 50 Dodging. You dodge his attacks 70 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 60. You now dodge his attacks 80 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 70. You now dodge his attacks 85 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 80. You now dodge his attacks 88 percent of the time.

Don't believe me? Try it yourself. This is the way the skill works.

Now, consider Reflex / Toughness.

First, with a Reflex / Toughness build, you only have to hit your opponent ONCE to win the fight. While your opponent hits all eight times against you, he only does 10-15 damage per hit. You do your full 150 + damage (you have a high Vigor from pumping points into STR).

Second, Reflex / Toughness do not work on the law of diminishing returns, but actually work the opposite way. If you have a low Reflex / Toughness, it will do absolutely nothing against your opponent's attacks. But, if you have a higher Reflex / Toughness than your opponent, it has a massive effect.

With a high Reflex / Toughness, you effectively mitigate:
Dodging
Aim
Shooting / Vigor (as long as Reflex / Toughness combo is just a little higher than attacker's Shooting / Vigor)
Health Points
Appearance / Tactics.

And THAT is why it is imbalanced.

 

[DeletedUser]

Let's talk about jobs...

List the low end jobs that a high Reflex / Toughness will give you access to.
Add to that the list of high end jobs that a high Reflex / Toughness will give you access to.
Now, these may not be the best jobs in the game, but also consider that they are a lot of high money jobs in there that a compareable Shooting build won't have access to until much later in the game.

Now, list the jobs that a high Aim / Dodging / Hit Points build has access to...

(All three of those skills are mitigated by a high Reflex / Toughness. Don't believe me? Show me one person who defended the high Reflex / Toughness build by saying you can beat it with a high Aim / Dodging / Hit Point build... They ALL suggested that you should pump up your Shooting / Vigor)

 

[DeletedUser]

Lets say that you are fighting someone with a 40 Aim and you have 50 Dodging. You dodge his attacks 60 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 60. You now dodge his attacks 66,7 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 70. You now dodge his attacks 71,4 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 80. You now dodge his attacks 75 percent of the time.

Just added the correct dodging percentages. The conclusion remains the same.

EDIT: And by 'correct' I mean wrong in a different way. George Hurst has them right in the following post.

 

[DeletedUser]

(fictional numbers to prove a point)
Lets say that you are fighting someone with a 40 Aim and you have 50 Dodging. You dodge his attacks 59 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 60. You now dodge his attacks 65 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 70. You now dodge his attacks 70 percent of the time.

You add 10 to your Dodging bringing your total Dodging up to 80. You now dodge his attacks 73.5 percent of the time.

These are the figures I get. But, this is assuming you dodge incorrectly, or do not dodge. If you dodge these figures become: 78.6%, 82%, 84.5% and 86.3%. This is assuming that your appearance is indentical to their tactics.
So it seems spending lots of points in dodging is a waste? I disagree, I think that for any dueling skill, once you have a higher stat than your opponents counter ability, any further boost to that skill is less effective. There are no linear relationships between any of the different attack and defence values.
For example my tactics is 20, you want to attack me, it aids your attack a lot if you boost your appearance from 20 to 25, but if it was already 45, another 5 points in appearance will make very little difference at all.
If your shooting/vigor is 30 and my combined resistance value is also 30 (say 20 in each Toughness and reflex) then 5 points either way will greatly effect the damage you can inflict, however, if your vigor/shooting were 60 already, another 5 points would not even make a noticable difference to the damage.
So when is a skill point wasted as a dueler?
When it is spent on a skill in which you already dominate.
Where is the weakness for this kind of build?
They cannot hope to get their resistance values higher than the shooting of a respecced trapper/shooter (who built for jobs, not dueling), plus they have little to no dodge, so the shooter can hit head shots at will, doing awesome damage.

 

[DeletedUser]

These are the figures I get. But, this is assuming you dodge incorrectly, or do not dodge. If you dodge these figures become: 78.6%, 82%, 84.5% and 86.3%. This is assuming that your appearance is indentical to their tactics.
So it seems spending lots of points in dodging is a waste? I disagree, I think that for any dueling skill, once you have a higher stat than your opponents counter ability, any further boost to that skill is less effective. There are no linear relationships between any of the different attack and defence values.
For example my tactics is 20, you want to attack me, it aids your attack a lot if you boost your appearance from 20 to 25, but if it was already 45, another 5 points in appearance will make very little difference at all.
If your shooting/vigor is 30 and my combined resistance value is also 30 (say 20 in each Toughness and reflex) then 5 points either way will greatly effect the damage you can inflict, however, if your vigor/shooting were 60 already, another 5 points would not even make a noticable difference to the damage.
So when is a skill point wasted as a dueler?
When it is spent on a skill in which you already dominate.
Where is the weakness for this kind of build?
They cannot hope to get their resistance values higher than the shooting of a respecced trapper/shooter (who built for jobs, not dueling), plus they have little to no dodge, so the shooter can hit head shots at will, doing awesome damage.

Exactly it isnt uber no build is

 

[DeletedUser]

Damn, I figured out I had posted the wrong numbers (I forgot the +5 added to Attack Value and Defense Value) when I was lying in bed... (does that mean I play/think too much The West?).

George's numbers are correct. And his reasoning and conclusions are as well.

 

[DeletedUser]

I may be reskilling my w5 and w4 character and moving out some of the dodging points I built up. I have come across 2 of these uber-melee duelers, 1 in W5 and 1 in W4.
It's a shame that they don't use either toughness for melee or reflex for range OR divide both by 2 and use them both since they are both important skills in a fight.

Thanks,

JAck

 

[DeletedUser]

So when is a skill point wasted as a dueler?
When it is spent on a skill in which you already dominate.

I understand this concept and thanks to everyone who's participated in this thread so far! Am I correct to assume that it would be in a duelers best interest NOT to overload one particular skill then? But try and be quite proficient in at least two or maybe three aspects of a duel against an opponent who's completely loaded in only one?

 

[DeletedUser]

These are the figures I get. But, this is assuming you dodge incorrectly, or do not dodge. If you dodge these figures become: 78.6%, 82%, 84.5% and 86.3%. This is assuming that your appearance is indentical to their tactics.

Considering that they only have to hit you once to beat you, let's assume that you aren't going to dodge correctly 100% of the time....

So it seems spending lots of points in dodging is a waste? I disagree, I think that for any dueling skill, once you have a higher stat than your opponents counter ability, any further boost to that skill is less effective.

Geeze...that sounds like the law of diminishing returns. Go back up top and read what I said....

There are no linear relationships between any of the different attack and defence values.

There is a difference between a linear relationship and a relationship that uses the law of diminishing returns...

For example my tactics is 20, you want to attack me, it aids your attack a lot if you boost your appearance from 20 to 25, but if it was already 45, another 5 points in appearance will make very little difference at all.

Wow...again, the law of diminishing returns... Bravo.

If your shooting/vigor is 30 and my combined resistance value is also 30 (say 20 in each Toughness and reflex) then 5 points either way will greatly effect the damage you can inflict, however, if your vigor/shooting were 60 already, another 5 points would not even make a noticable difference to the damage.

And again! But you took this from the shooting/vigor side and ignored what happens from the Toughness/Reflex side.

Go back to the dueling ratio thread where someone gives what they believed were the formulas for calculating damage and everyone proved that those formulas don't work. That is, when the person with resistances is hit, instead of doing 80 damage, they were doing 10-20 damage.

Or, how about you take this case. I'm fighting someone with 96 toughness, 105 reflex and I have over 120 Shooting. Yet, my head shots do 20-25 damage.

So when is a skill point wasted as a dueler?
When it is spent on a skill in which you already dominate.

Or, when the game mechanics are so screwed up that even you claim that spending points on dueling skills against a high resistance fighter won't work... In your own words, the way to fight a player with high resistances is spec your character for jobs, AND NOT DUELING...

Where is the weakness for this kind of build?
They cannot hope to get their resistance values higher than the shooting of a respecced trapper/shooter (who built for jobs, not dueling), plus they have little to no dodge, so the shooter can hit head shots at will, doing awesome damage.

:laugh: Awesome damage...

I really have to ask, do you even play a dueler that fights against people with high resistances?