Toughness/reflex and the uber-melee fighter

[DeletedUser]

If you only target weak players, you won't get much experience, therefore won't be able to go up much in the dueling ranks. Even constantly dueling dueling weak players won't help you - if your motivation goes down because you constantly duel low level players, you will get even less experience. Having gained significant dueling experience, would again mean you would have to start dueling stronger players, since you will soon move out of range of your weak opponents.

Having beaten one guy 3 times in a row, does not necessarily mean you are a better dueler than him (although it could be so) - it only means that your build is probably better against his build, which might not be the same for you against all other duelers at a similar level.

 

[DeletedUser]

If you only target weak players, you won't get much experience, therefore won't be able to go up much in the dueling ranks. Even constantly dueling dueling weak players won't help you - if your motivation goes down because you constantly duel low level players, you will get even less experience. Having gained significant dueling experience, would again mean you would have to start dueling stronger players, since you will soon move out of range of your weak opponents.

Having beaten one guy 3 times in a row, does not necessarily mean you are a better dueler than him (although it could be so) - it only means that your build is probably better against his build, which might not be the same for you against all other duelers at a similar level.

Define what you think is weak.

I define it as attacking someone over and over you know you can beat with very little risk / no risk of loosing to - THAT can include people at the top of the rankings

 

[DeletedUser]

You mean like you targeting the number 2 ranked dueler on W6?

 

[DeletedUser]

yeah, cause there will be a shiny cavalry saber as well.

also, i have a friend who is proof that the high toughness/reflex build is NOT invincible, and that high health, dodging, and aim can out beat the toughness/reflexes so called "uber" build. and no im not posting it cause then everyone would have an idea of the build of my friend. but i guarantee that high toughness/reflexes builds are not unfair. the dueling set up is fine as it is.

i love how my argument was completely ignored. just cant except something when it is hard evidence AGAINST your argument (not aimed at you wes, but Adelei Niska).

if you can beat a player every time, then it could possibly be considered that they are weak in comparison to you, but as wes pointed out, just because you can beat him doesn't mean you can beat anyone else on the first page of the rankings. they all may be able to knock you out every time. but if that player got there by being cheap and dueling only weaker players, then that player really deserves to get crushed constantly. and because of that, i wouldn't consider him weak, i'd consider him stupid, cause its his own damn fault he's so high in the dueling rankings as a mediocre dueler.

 

[DeletedUser]

i love how my argument was completely ignored. just cant except something when it is hard evidence AGAINST your argument (not aimed at you wes, but Adelei Niska).

if you can beat a player every time, then it could possibly be considered that they are weak in comparison to you, but as wes pointed out, just because you can beat him doesn't mean you can beat anyone else on the first page of the rankings. they all may be able to knock you out every time. but if that player got there by being cheap and dueling only weaker players, then that player really deserves to get crushed constantly. and because of that, i wouldn't consider him weak, i'd consider him stupid, cause its his own damn fault he's so high in the dueling rankings as a mediocre dueler.

It's called exploiting a flaw in his build which is all what this thread is about he is a toughness / reflex so called uber build yet i beat him for 3 of 3 duels each time by an increased amount.

Just pointing out the build this thread is about isn't uber as is no build. THEY all can be beaten in some way shape or form.......but by setting yourself up for such a success you leave yourself open to another type of build.


Ergo there is no uber build you can always find a build to counter anything if you think about it enough

 

[DeletedUser]

i love how my argument was completely ignored. just cant except something when it is hard evidence AGAINST your argument (not aimed at you wes, but Adelei Niska).

Argument? All I saw from you was a baseless claim that you state that you won't back up...

What was there to respond to?

 

[DeletedUser]

I think this thread have evolved a bit into several different arguments trying to counter each other, while we are actually all saying the same thing (except for Adelei Niska of course, although I am not always sure what he is trying to say - maybe ol' Johnny has a point?). Different arguments from different angles all pointed out that this "uber" build is not really invincible (that was until we all started arguing about each others argument).

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually, about half of the people seem to be trying to defend the Toughness / Reflex exploit, and the other half are calling them on their crap and hypocrisy.

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually, about half of the people seem to be trying to defend the Toughness / Reflex exploit, and the other half are calling them on their crap and hypocrisy.

It isnt an exploite its fighting style in much the same way BJJ is a style of actualy fighting - some fighting styles will work against it others wont.

Its up to you to figure that out

 

[DeletedUser]

Sorry, Azuk...just because you like to use that exploit, doesn't mean that it isn't an exploit. IMO, it is not working as intended...

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually, about half of the people seem to be trying to defend the Toughness / Reflex exploit, and the other half are calling them on their crap and hypocrisy.

So I reckon you consider everybody who differs from you a hypocrite because they differ, and all other arguments contradicting your raving is crap? And you believe everybody who differs from you have exploited this "loophole" and is therefore defending it? For the record, I have nothing even remotely close to such a build.

Someone spent 201 points on resistance skills, and you are upset that it overpowers the 120 you spent on your offensive skill?
I'm sick of your whining, your aggression and your sarcasm. I will not be posting in this thread again.

Amen on that.

 

[DeletedUser]

Awww...he's upset about my calling him on the really bad logic he used about assigning the "top duelers" based on ranking... How cute!

 

[DeletedUser]

Sorry, Azuk...just because you like to use that exploit, doesn't mean that it isn't an exploit. IMO, it is not working as intended...

Seeing as one of the head developers confirmed its working as it should I realy dont see how its an exploit, all I see here is alot of moaning about the build yet you have been told how to combat it quite clearly in the thread (Not sure how much more simple it can be explained)


The helpfile is wrong about a great many things deal with it most of the rest of us have

 

[DeletedUser]

Seeing as one of the head developers confirmed its working as it should

Quote please.

The closest thing to a developer comment on this that I've seen was posted here: http://translate.google.com/transla...rum.the-west.de/showthread.php?t=19201&page=4

Basically, the developer said that they were considering removing the bonus from one type of resistance to the other.

 

[DeletedUser]

Quote please.

The closest thing to a developer comment on this that I've seen was posted here: http://translate.google.com/transla...rum.the-west.de/showthread.php?t=19201&page=4

Basically, the developer said that they were considering removing the bonus from one type of resistance to the other.

Are you sure you are reading the translation correctly? As thats not what its telling me

I will point you to ' It was also initial intends' by 'Help correct the article' He means the helpfile which is wrong on quite a few things

 

[DeletedUser]

Basically he says, that it works as it was intended in first place, however he agrees that the two types of weapons should be distinguished more, so the respective influence of "other" defense should have less effect or even none at all. So you're both right.
The help file provided a wrong description all the time.

 

[DeletedUser]

Argument? All I saw from you was a baseless claim that you state that you won't back up...

What was there to respond to?

was expecting you to call it a load of bs and demand i show you the report

also, the idea behind having the two resistances work together was that they realized most duelers would go mostly for offensive skills, so they knew there would have to be some kind of balance for that. so in a way, the toughness/reflex build may be considered "uber", but thats mostly because of the fact that not many use it. and it improves vigor. but something is only truly "uber" if an equal leveled pure dueler can never beat you if you have this particular build, but in fact it can be quite easy to defeat this build. a partial dodging build can beat it about 9/10, mostly appearance/tactics can beat itabout 8/10, and pure aim/shooting can beat it about 4/10. an even build can be a decent match against it. its not hard to beat this build. on paper it may seem uber, because skill points are used 1.5 times, but in reality, they aren't. its like a paradox almost.

 

[DeletedUser]

was expecting you to call it a load of bs and demand i show you the report

also, the idea behind having the two resistances work together was that they realized most duelers would go mostly for offensive skills, so they knew there would have to be some kind of balance for that. so in a way, the toughness/reflex build may be considered "uber", but thats mostly because of the fact that not many use it. and it uses vigor. but something is only truly "uber" if an equal leveled pure dueler can never beat you if you have this particular build, but in fact it can be quite easy to defeat this build. a partial dodging build can beat it about 9/10, mostly appearance/tactics can beat itabout 8/10, and pure aim/shooting can beat it about 4/10. an even build can be a decent match against it. its not hard to beat this build. on paper it may seem uber, because skill points are used 1.5 times, but in reality, they aren't. its like a paradox almost.

You diagnosis is very dependant on a 'Players actual build' if you dont ahve the required shooting / Vigor to do enough dmg vs a Resistance build you arent going to win pure and simple as they will only need to strike once over 8 rounds which is highly likely when defending.

Also you haven't taken into account a Toughness / Reflex tactics soldier having tested one previously and been dueled by the best people on the world when i was using the build even though they were a comparable lvl to say they got an ass whipping would be an understatement

 

[DeletedUser]

was expecting you to call it a load of bs and demand i show you the report

Why would I bother? You have to actually present something as evidence before that evidence can be called BS... What we have from you is no better than, "I heard it from some guy off the internet" type of claim... Not really worth anyone's time.

also, the idea behind having the two resistances work together was that they realized most duelers would go mostly for offensive skills, so they knew there would have to be some kind of balance for that.

Dodge and tactics aren't enough of a balance? Well...maybe they aren't...but resistances aren't the only "balance" to offensive skills that are out there. In any event, you give absolutely no reason that increasing one type of resistance should affect the other type of resistance. If I have a high shooting...does that affect how well I can do damage with melee weapons? Of course not.

so in a way, the toughness/reflex build may be considered "uber", but thats mostly because of the fact that not many use it. and it uses vigor.

It is not because not many use it, but because it is over-powered. Period. And it doesn't use Vigor. One resistance is in the Str category as is Vigor, but it does not "use" Vigor.

but something is only truly "uber" if an equal leveled pure dueler can never beat you if you have this particular build, but in fact it can be quite easy to defeat this build. a partial dodging build can beat it about 9/10, mostly appearance/tactics can beat itabout 8/10, and pure aim/shooting can beat it about 4/10. an even build can be a decent match against it.

Proof please. Oh, that's right. You're just about baseless claims rather than adding anything substantial to this conversation....I forgot. Silly me.

its not hard to beat this build. on paper it may seem uber, because skill points are used 1.5 times, but in reality, they aren't. its like a paradox almost.

Do you even have a high level dueler who has fought against people with high resistances? I really question that you have any idea of what you are talking about.

 

[DeletedUser]

Adelei Niska, have you ever tried to have a conversation with anybody without trying to belittle people or starting a fight? Any case, this link is not for you (since it cannot be scientifically proven - everybody else lies, right?) For the rest of the community, see http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=227485&postcount=35 - toughness/reflex build can easily be beaten, as kman288 had also said.