Toughness/reflex and the uber-melee fighter

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DeletedUser

It has been admitted on the German forums that toughness works together with reflex to reduce fire-arms damage, and that reflex works together with toughness to reduce melee damage.

Lately, this new kind of uber-melee, high toughness and reflex fighter has started to appear in World 6, and I assume they are also present in other worlds. They have zero dodging, and you hit them all the time, but the damage you do is very, very limited.

The obvious exploit here is that melee fighters get "free" toughness when putting attribute points into strength, their main attribute. It is then a no-brainier for the melee fighter to put skill-points into reflex and ignore dodging. Such a build, when done right, is almost unbeatable.

Combined with the advantage given to melee fighters already, with Hernando's sword (who's quest-details are already out on the web for anyone to see) and the recent addition of corrosive acid as a melee weapon, we will very soon have a western without guns.

Please adjust this. The obvious fix is to make toughness and reflex what they are claimed to be on the Hilfe-pages. Remove the combined damage reduction and make the skills work for one type of damage only.
 
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DeletedUser

D. Saint said:
It has been admitted on the German forums that toughness works together with reflex to reduce fire-arms damage, and that reflex works together with toughness to reduce melee damage.

Lately, this new kind of uber-melee, high toughness and reflex fighter has started to appear in World 6, and I assume they are also present in other worlds. They have zero dodging, and you hit them all the time, but the damage you do is very, very limited.

The obvious exploit here is that melee fighters get "free" toughness when putting attribute points into strength, their main attribute. It is then a no-brainier for the melee fighter to put skill-points into reflex and ignore dodging. Such a build, when done right, is almost unbeatable.

Combined with the advantage given to melee fighters already, with Hernando's sword (who's quest-details are already out on the web for anyone to see) and the recent addition of corrosive acid as a melee weapon, we will very soon have a western without guns.

Please adjust this. The obvious fix is to make toughness and reflex what they are claimed to be on the Hilfe-pages. Remove the combined damage reduction and make the skills work for one type of damage only.
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You dont mention the uber clothes that Firearms Soldiers already have :dry:

And this build has been around since the very begining of W1 the player has now quit but they were the first, so its not a recent thing its always been like it!!!
 
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DeletedUser

The toughness refles vigor clothes available are every bit as uber. The equipment is rather well balanced.
 

DeletedUser

I dont remember a skill that doubles toughness the same as the soldiers does for tactics.

Fancy Felt hat, Black coat & Brown boots need i say more.

You can argue both ways......in otherwords stop moaning and learn to deal with it, other people have very sucessfuly on other worlds
 

DeletedUser

Azuk said:
I dont remember a skill that doubles toughness the same as the soldiers does for tactics.

Fancy Felt hat, Black coat & Brown boots need i say more.

You can argue both ways......in otherwords stop moaning and learn to deal with it, other people have very sucessfuly on other worlds
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Azuk,
You are right about the soldier tactics bonus (and the weapon level bonus) being unbalanced, especially on premium, but that is not what we are talking about here. The problem I have brought up is even more problematic when it comes to soldiers.

Imagine a toughness/reflex, premium melee-soldier. Extremely unbalancing, I would say. Give him/her Hernando's sword, and it cannot be called anything but game-breaking.

This type of build would still be a very good one, even without the combined damage reduction that goes against what is claimed in Hilfe's dueling section.
 
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DeletedUser

Azuk said:
You can argue both ways......in otherwords stop moaning and learn to deal with it, other people have very sucessfuly on other worlds
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You didn't happen to mention that you single-handedly KO'd the entire best dueling town on World 6, wielding Hernando's Sword and using a toughness/reflex build. I bet several of those people had that "uber" tactics gear, huh? :)
 

DeletedUser

czaz said:
You didn't happen to mention that you single-handedly KO'd the entire best dueling town on World 6, wielding Hernando's Sword and using a toughness/reflex build. I bet several of those people had that "uber" tactics gear, huh? :)
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Thats a totaly false statemet I have not ko'd the entire best dueling town on w6

The build has its weaknesses as do all builds....this is basicaly someone starting a thread because there so called uber build has quite a big weakness which they dont like.


Deal with every build has its weakness no matter what you do so IMO dueling is actualy quite fair everything taken into consideration.

Dont forget this build has to pump points into aim you dont if your a firearms dueler and you also have access to far better jobs :nowink:
 

DeletedUser

D. Saint said:
Azuk,
You are right about the soldier tactics bonus (and the weapon level bonus) being unbalanced, especially on premium, but that is not what we are talking about here. The problem I have brought up is even more problematic when it comes to soldiers.

Imagine a toughness/reflex, premium melee-soldier. Extremely unbalancing, I would say. Give him/her Hernando's sword, and it cannot be called anything but game-breaking.

This type of build would still be a very good one, even without the combined damage reduction that goes against what is claimed in Hilfe's dueling section.
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Again totaly depends on your build as you have to make certain scarifices for the build and there are ways to counter it. The main reason this build is so popular is because its a very good counter to tactic whoring ranged soldiers. You are also VERY LIMITED job wise

As for the Toughness / Reflex soldier melee dueler. I have 1 of sorts on W5 and again you have to make sacrifices for ths build and whilst you wont get knocked out you arent going to win every duel

As for hernandos sword its not much more powerful than a buntline or that far ahead of a sharp cavalry sabre, generaly you will find shooters get to their end game weapons first due to exp job advantages
 

DeletedUser

Melee duelers cannot get the best jobs like shooters can.

I thought of this tactic and considered using it, but I never got around to actually being a dueler in any world..
I thought of that at least 4 months ago, so this is by no means "new".
 

DeletedUser

pi-man said:
Melee duelers cannot get the best jobs like shooters can.

I thought of this tactic and considered using it, but I never got around to actually being a dueler in any world..
I thought of that at least 4 months ago, so this is by no means "new".
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auxo was the first to use the strategy pretty much from day 1 of world 1.net being open
 

DeletedUser

Let's just all agree that this build > all, so everyone go for it in w10 while I choose another one wich beats that one.
 

DeletedUser

Yup I remember getting thwacked for 100 damage by Auxo and doing 10 damage in return back in like October !

Azuk is right though - the high Tough/Reflex build has some flaws such as low Dodging Skill and getting hit most rounds ... which works fine til someone comes along and has way more Shooting then you're able to mitigate.

Hernandos is largely irrelevant cause you can either do enough damage to someone or you can't - there isn't alot of middle ground when it comes to fighting high Toughness/Reflex opponents.

While melees do have an advantage in a high Tough/Reflex build ... whats your Vigor and how many character levels behind the top Firearms players are you ? There goes your melee advantage out the window. The XP disparity doesn't really start to show itself until the L 60s and higher but I assure you it's very real.
 

DeletedUser

if you play your cards right with a melle soldier chasing bandits will be your main exp job once you hit lvl 65 or so if your lucky
 

DeletedUser

I have a question for you guys.

If you didn't care much for jobs, wouldn't a very high dodging build be good.
I mean if at level 50 you're sitting with something like:

90 Aim
50 Shooting
80 Dodging (as an approx. example)

You wouldn't do much damage, but you'd rarely get hit.
 

DeletedUser

I just wanted to throw around some rough figures. Assume it's in Appearance.
 

DeletedUser

vigor sucks for growth. enough said. in other words, he may KO you, but soon he wont be able to duel you, as your level will be too high. so toughen up, and ride it out.
 
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