Dueling Skills..

Romelis

instead of writing miles of text and forcing other ppl to read it try understanding, that you are writing with fork on the surface of water.

you try to base your theory on ratio 1 x 1. i told its wrong since its more complicated. and gave hypothetical example according to my experience in other games where formulas are involved. i didnt say its correct. just some material ppl to think about before thinking plain "you got 10 aim and i have 20 dodge, so my dodge negates your aim"
 

MadAlice

Romelis's head is going to explode if he doesn't figure out the intricacies and nuances of the west's dueling system.

Shouldn't 10 dodge negate the 10 aim?
 

Danzeman

It's almost impossible to figure out, I know there is a random in the duel engine, also the Paper,Rock, Scissors theory is the main reason I go Toughness - Reflex over Dodge, I fight many duels and am rarely get hurt, but saying that I fear fighting against a melee more than I do ranged weapon user.

This could go on forever, as Romelis said 1 x 1 isn't correct, how would you explain a pure builder with 0 aim dodge or tactics winning a duel?
I swear to you I got battered all the time then I bought a machete and all of a sudden started winning a few duels and hitting a lot even though a machete don't increase aim?

Ah whatever, I'm successful on w4 anyway so I don't care now.......

Cheers Dahammer for the Dodge/aim input.
 

Dr.Drud

Romelis's head is going to explode if he doesn't figure out the intricacies and nuances of the west's dueling system.

Shouldn't 10 dodge negate the 10 aim?
I think you're kinda talking past eachother (is that an English term too?). What IS (or at least very well might be) based on ratio's is the reduction of Aim, based on Appearance VS. Tactics. This is - as far as I remember right now - the only major unknown factor in determining whether a hit is scored or not.

Let's completely ignore the effects of Appearance and Tactics (assume both players have none, or have the same amount and that it then cancels out (which is not certain, but I believe equal levels would cancel out)).

The we first determine the Attack Value [AV] (for both players). This is given by the players Aim + 5. If the player used the duelling stance 'Aim' (not dodging/5 red dots) it is given by 2*Aim + 5. This is true for either player. [With dodge/appearance in the picture, one of the players would incur a penalty to their attack value].

We then determine the Defense Value [DV] of both players in each round. If the attacker aims at a spot where the defender does not dodge, the Defense Value is given by Dodging + 5. If the defender does dodge where the attacker aims, the Value is 2*Dodging + 5.

So let's say we have an attacker with 10 Aim and 5 Dodge, while our defender has 5 Aim and 5 Dodge. Let's assume both players dodge to the left, and they both shoot at the left hand/shoulder (so no doubling of either Dodge or Aim).

The AV of the attacker is thus 15 and the DV of the defender is 10. What happens now is that the computer draws a random number for the attacker between 1 and 15 (the AV) and a random number for the defender between 1 and 10 (the DV). If the Attacker's random number is higher a hit is scored. What happens in a tie is unknown (I think).

The following is an attempt to write up all combinations of random draws:

Code:
    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   10   11   12   13   14   15
1  ?    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X
2  -    ?    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X
3  -    -    ?    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X
4  -    -    -    ?    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X
5  -    -    -    -    ?    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X
6  -    -    -    -    -    ?    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X
7  -    -    -    -    -    -    ?    X    X    X    X    X    X    X    X
8  -    -    -    -    -    -    -    ?    X    X    X    X    X    X    X
9  -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    ?    X    X    X    X    X    X
10 -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    ?    X    X    X    X    X
So of the 150 possibilities, we can see that a Hit is scored in 95 of them. A miss is scored in 45 and in 10 cases we have a tie.

If a hit is scored damage is then calculated - and we have no idea how this happens. :p
Weapon dmg + Vigor/Shooting VS. Toughness/Reflexes.

If the defender survives the hit he tries to hit back with an AV of 10 vs. the attackers DV of 10.
 

Bill

Not necessarily. There are some other factors involved.

First off, 'aim' and 'shooting' are used in every duel, while 'appearance' isn't. So if a person is defensive, rarely if ever challenging, then spending points on 'appearance' is a waste.

Appearance is only effective to whatever level of tactics you are facing. Appearance never increases your attack value. It only prevents it from being lowered by your opponents tactics. So excessive appearance is a waste of skill points.

Also, all an opponent's tactics can do is lower your attack value. If you have a high aim, you will start off with a higher attack value to begin with. There is also a mechanism built into the game that allows you to double your attack value. You can opt not to dodge, which means you just get your regular defense value instead of an opporunity to double it. If you have higher dodge, that becomes a more viable option.

Also, it shouldn't be assumed that all soldiers have high tactics points. Some soldiers do not opt to use their bonus to have extraordinary tactics values, but rather they use the bonus so they can spend less points on tactics and focus more skill points on other dueling skills.
I believe appearance is still important in duels. I lost many of my early duels when I had low appearance to attack. You also have to keep in mind that appearance is important in many jobs, including some of those that are needed in the first quests. Putting a few points towards appearance is not and never a waste.
 

Romelis

few points put anywhere is a waste. a significant result might come in 30-40 points.
 

Hectorlee

Dr. Drud's calculation about aim/dodge is the most correct explanation as far as I know. Have anyone figured out about the formulation including appearance/tactics? How about the damage calculation formula?
 

Bill

few points put anywhere is a waste. a significant result might come in 30-40 points.
You put "few" points little by little every few levels or so and later on these few will be many. Good enough to make a significant change. You put little by little so you can proportionally distribute the rest of the points on the other skills as you level up. Its the player's choice anyway.
 

DeHammer

Shouldn't 10 dodge negate the 10 aim?
The help section is pretty explicit in describing the details of how each attack works...

With each shot the attack value of the attacker is compared to the defense value of the defender. For this a random value is taken between one and the attack value, and a random value between one and the defense value. If the attack value is higher, the attacker lands a hit and causes damage.
So all more 'aim' or more 'dodge' does, is raise the potential upper limit of the random attack/defense values. If it was 10 aim vs 50 dodge, attack value might get a random value of 9, while defense value might happen to get a random value of 4.
 

Danzeman

so everything is possible in the west
YES!! genius, this man is a genius, I believe your right there :)

Lol, I see what you mean, every question that gets asked about duelling there is never a perfect answer, it's all assumption to me and rarely proved if ever.
 

DeHammer

Lol, I see what you mean, every question that gets asked about duelling there is never a perfect answer, it's all assumption to me and rarely proved if ever.
That's a good reason to refer to the help section. It does provide a lot of information about how dueling works. To know more precisely we'd have to examine the game's code.
 

Atlictoatl

Appearance is only effective to whatever level of tactics you are facing. Appearance never increases your attack value. It only prevents it from being lowered by your opponents tactics. So excessive appearance is a waste of skill points.
My reading of the Help file implies that high Appearance will have a better chance of reducing the opponent's Attack value. ie, an aggressor with a 20 Appearance attacking a defender with 0 Tactics will result in the defender's Attack being reduced, and by a larger amount than if the difference between the two scores was by a smaller amount.

Similarly, were one to attack someone with a high Tactics, assuming one lost the Appearance/Tactics comparison, having higher Appearance would result in less of a penalty to one's Attack.

This would imply that high Appearance/Tactics is not a waste of skill points, though it might be less effective than skill points spent elsewhere, dependent on how the math bore out.

Is this an accurate reading? Anyone have more specific numerical data by which to ascertain to what degree Attack value is reduced?

Also, all an opponent's tactics can do is lower your attack value. If you have a high aim, you will start off with a higher attack value to begin with. There is also a mechanism built into the game that allows you to double your attack value. You can opt not to dodge, which means you just get your regular defense value instead of an opporunity to double it. If you have higher dodge, that becomes a more viable option.
Thanks, I hadn't read closely enough to realize this previously. Very helpful!

I'm currently in the teen levels, and agonizing over every SP. It sounds as though this no-dodge strategy is best for those with a high Dodge skill. Is there any merit in focusing on high Toughness/Reflex at the expense of Dodge, or is there generally more merit in focusing on Dodge at the expense of Toughness/Reflex?

There are, ultimately, only so many skills one can choose to have at a reasonable level. From what I've seen from the advice I've been able to pick up on the boards, it seems the minimum formulas one should strive for are Aim=level, Damage=2xlevel, and then it's just a bunch of guesswork.
 

DeHammer

My reading of the Help file implies that high Appearance will have a better chance of reducing the opponent's Attack value.
Yup, I should have worded my statement better. I was referring to the benefits applied to your own attacks. Once your appearance is greater than the challenged person's tactics, you are only reducing their attacks, not improving your own.
 

DeHammer

Is there any merit in focusing on high Toughness/Reflex at the expense of Dodge, or is there generally more merit in focusing on Dodge at the expense of Toughness/Reflex?
Personally, I'd rather have high dodge and avoid attacks from both melee/ranged, than focus on reducing damage. But I've dueled people who obviously have spent a lot of points reducing my damage output. You can tell if you have the potential to do 100+ damage, yet you hit them consistently every time, and only do 20-30 damage each hit... they have to have high reflex/toughness.
 

Atlictoatl

Personally, I'd rather have high dodge and avoid attacks from both melee/ranged, than focus on reducing damage. But I've dueled people who obviously have spent a lot of points reducing my damage output. You can tell if you have the potential to do 100+ damage, yet you hit them consistently every time, and only do 20-30 damage each hit... they have to have high reflex/toughness.
And, generally, did you beat them despite their damage reduction, or did their damage reduction trump your dodging ability?
 

Filipinoy78

Yea.. im now starting to think that reflex is better than dodge..
Since your opponent have a chance hitting even still then have a low aim..
 

Violette LeDrunc

Just an interesting example of the effects of appearance... I have a builder who needed to duel for a workers quest. I had just started branching out from cons with my skill points but had no aim. I attempted the duel and got zero hits versus 4 hits from Butch.

Then I moved 4 points from appearance (my only "spares") to aim. In the second duel, I got 2 hits versus 5.

Can we say that means very much? Not really, because it is so small an example. But I wouldn't underestimate the value of having a strong appearance to complement your aim.