Dueling Skills..

DeHammer

Then I moved 4 points from appearance (my only "spares") to aim. In the second duel, I got 2 hits versus 5.

Can we say that means very much? Not really, because it is so small an example. But I wouldn't underestimate the value of having a strong appearance to complement your aim.
Sorry, I think you lost me. You decreased 'appearance', to raise your 'aim', which appeared to be successful. But how does that demonstrate the importance of 'appearance'. I would think it demonstrates the importance of 'aim' more so.

In any case, I think you're right that you need some of both. If for no other reason than to protect your own attack value. Of course, with no 'aim', you have no attack value to begin with.
 

Bill

Reflex may not be as bad like some of you think. It actually protects you well against firearms if you had a good value at it.
 

Violette LeDrunc

Sorry, I think you lost me. You decreased 'appearance', to raise your 'aim', which appeared to be successful. But how does that demonstrate the importance of 'appearance'.
He got an extra hit in. And assuming his stance is set and not random, I had adjusted my defensive stance to make up for the hits, which means he would have got even more. Like I said, no conclusions can really be reached from this one example, but I still thought it was interesting that his hits increased when my appearance decreased.
 

DeHammer

He got an extra hit in. And assuming his stance is set and not random, I had adjusted my defensive stance to make up for the hits, which means he would have got even more. Like I said, no conclusions can really be reached from this one example, but I still thought it was interesting that his hits increased when my appearance decreased.
Ah, gotcha. Yea, it's likely your appearance was suppressing his attacks more on the first duel.
 

bonez

Since some of the players here have shared some decent insights already I thought I share some of the observations from the German players.

From observations it seems the help section is not accurate in describing the reflex value only to be affecting ranged attacks/ the toughness value only to be affecting melee attacks.

It seems more like the below:

- for ranged attacks it is: weapon + shooting - reflex - 0.5 toughness = dmg
- for melee attacks it is: weapon + vigor - toughness - 0.5 reflex = dmg

This is just a high level formula: don't expect it to fit a 100%. All it does is expressing that no matter if ranged or melee, toughness and reflex will both reduce the dmg.

That's why apparently a reflex, toughness skilling is actually more valuable than many would think and works quite well. At least Holysatan seems to follow that approach and it has played out well for him so far.

Cheers,
Bonez
 

Romelis

good observation. will have that in mind

thanks for spreading the word bonez
 

Abigaelle Spencer

From france...

Hi (stupid forum i need to create a character to post here).

Some of my investigation have learn me something, don't believe the rules !!!

1st fight :
I have 239 shooting 47-79 weapon, Adversary have 68 reflex.
I have done 112 & 158 Damge in hand, 112 & 132 Damage in shoulder
So : Shooting is not a "+" Damage skill for 1 SP = 1 Damage.

2nd fight :
Adversary have 106 power (skill for melee damage, is the name correct?) and a 15-85 Weapon. I have 30 toughness.
Damages : 89, 123, 136, 243 in head.

3rd fight :
I have 65 Dodge, and 0 Tactics. He have 30 Aiming and 68 Appearance.
I change side each round ... he hit me 8 time in the hand !

So Here is what i think :

Damage is : WEAPON*(100+Power/Shoot)/(100+Reflex/Toughness)
Damage is +15% on shoulder but +100% on head (and not +50% as written)

Appearance and Tactics works to Lower the Aiming of the opponent but ALSO work to raise your aiming or lower the dodge of the opponent.

So Appearance/Tactics are exactly as good as dodge, even better if you can always choose to be the attacker or the defender.
All i said here are what i "think" atm. If you can proove it's false, or if it works with your own duel. tell it.
 

DeHammer

First of all, I'd like to point out that observations like yours can only show what might be possible. You can't take a couple of duels and use them to extrapolate the formulas used in dueling. Secondly, if you happen to have missed a possible factor, such as in your first example, then your theory will be off.


1st fight :
I have 239 shooting 47-79 weapon, Adversary have 68 reflex.
I have done 112 & 158 Damge in hand, 112 & 132 Damage in shoulder
So : Shooting is not a "+" Damage skill for 1 SP = 1 Damage.
The post above by bonez, suggests that not just reflex would be considered, but that against a shooter, toughness would also come into play at 50% of it's value. You only give the defender's reflex here. Perhaps you've missed an important factor involved.



2nd fight :
Adversary have 106 power (skill for melee damage, is the name correct?) and a 15-85 Weapon. I have 30 toughness.
Damages : 89, 123, 136, 243 in head.
Not sure what your point is. Is just the final hit in the head, or all in the head? If you were to add the vigor and weapon damage, assuming a very high damage of 201 points, then consider +50% for a head shot, the 243 would be possible.


3rd fight :
I have 65 Dodge, and 0 Tactics. He have 30 Aiming and 68 Appearance.
I change side each round ... he hit me 8 time in the hand !
This is possible under the rules, if all of the random values based on your dodge were low, and his were high. Are you saying that he could hit you in the hand 8 times over the course of many duels? Or is this a one time thing? Might just be a fluke. You say you change sides (dodge?) each round. So were you dodging the hand that he hit each time? Or were you dodging the hand he wasn't shooting at? That would make a difference.

I have played a similar configuration, low tactics and low dodge. Then when I kept my tactics down, but increased my dodge, people began to miss me much more often. So I would say my own experience is that just increasing dodge alone makes a significant difference.


Btw... how do you know the skill point values of the characters you dueled?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Abigaelle Spencer

The post above by bonez, suggests that not just reflex would be considered, but that against a shooter, toughness would also come into play at 50% of it's value. You only give the defender's reflex here. Perhaps you've missed an important factor involved.
Bones suggest is false. I have 239 Shoot and low value of 47 on my weapon. Adversary have 68 Reflex and 60 Toughness. So 239+47-68-30 is 188 ... So i should never have hit for less than 188 with this rule. Any way it's very easy to see that if Shooting is not a "*" but a "+" as Bonez said, you will never have more than te diference between your max an min of weapon in damage ... Or we can see in lot of duel that it is note the case. So i am almost sure that "shooting/power" are a "factor *" and not a "bonus +"... so logicaly, reflex and toughness should be same.


Not sure what your point is. Is just the final hit in the head, or all in the head? If you were to add the vigor and weapon damage, assuming a very high damage of 201 points, then consider +50% for a head shot, the 243 would be possible.
Oh yes but you assume bonez is true, and i really think he is not.

This is possible under the rules, if all of the random values based on your dodge were low, and his were high. Are you saying that he could hit you in the hand 8 times over the course of many duels? Or is this a one time thing? Might just be a fluke. You say you change sides (dodge?) each round. So were you dodging the hand that he hit each time? Or were you dodging the hand he wasn't shooting at? That would make a difference.
In fact i have done it 2 time. And i switch side each round while my friend always hit the same hand... Anyway what i said is not "sure" ... but it will be again more "logical" that tactics and appearance would not be 50% effective than dodge. Anyway, my duels are not prooving anything, juste suggesting it is possible that tactics/appearance are applying both attack and defence skill in the fight.

Btw... how do you know the skill point values of the characters you dueled?
It's the best fighter of our world, so most of is skill are "public" (like mine).
And some fight are against friend just for testing purpose. In this case we know all, tactic, aiming, dodging, skills, weapons and so.
 

DeHammer

Oh yes but you assume bonez is true, and i really think he is not.
No, I don't assume that he is correct. The only thing I would expect to be correct is the game's reference material. But even that is full of holes, probably partly because of being translated from German to English.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Whistlingleaf

Abigaelle there is a maximum amount of Shooting/Vigor that applies to damage.

If you have 200 or 400 Shooting/Vigor it won't increase your damage at all (if your enemy has 0 Reflex.)

The real question is what is maximum number of Shooting/Vigor needed to do maximum damage.

ps Power is "Vigor" in English. (Sometimes Vigor is also called "Strike", but again that is just due to translation programs.)

This is exactly the same as Labor Points and money ... we all know having more LP means more money for a job but you can not do Picking Tobacco and make 500$ cause there is a maximum as to how many LP will help you.
 

Abigaelle Spencer

Maybe ... anyway that doesn't explain how the damage range can be higher than the weapon range. The only fact that can explain this is to use some multiplier. So for myself any théory that is based only on substract and add can only be false or incomplete.
 

Whistlingleaf

1. There is no maybe about what I wrote. There is a maximum damage a person can do regardless of Shooting/Vigor with a particular weapon. Talk to people that have 300+ shooting and you'll see they do not do more damage then people with 200 Shooting. I suspect the number needed to reach the maximum is less then 200 Shooting/Vigor.

2. The formula provided by bonez was taken from the German forum and the player there just kinda made the formula up, so while it is not an exact formula.... it does have some merit cause I have dueled a player with low Toughness and did less damage to him then I did many players with high Toughness and the ONLY factor that can explain the damage difference is Reflex. (The player had super high Reflex and I am a Melee/Vigor attacker, so his Reflex should not have mattered, but it did.)
 

Abigaelle Spencer

Needing more test. But anyway you don't respond to what i said about damage range that is higher than weapon range.. This is a real fact and can't be explain with all "add.sbustract" theory.
 

Whistlingleaf

Needing more test. But anyway you don't respond to what i said about damage range that is higher than weapon range.. This is a real fact and can't be explain with all "add.sbustract" theory.
Nobody is debating that you can do more damage then what is listed by the weapon. bonez' formula is not perfect, but the damage reducing part including both Toughness and Reflex is the best answer I've seen so far.

What I've stated is that you can mitigate damage to a very small amount by raising your Toughness/Reflex to match a persons Shooting/Vigor AND there is more then just Toughness or Reflex that adds into the equation when it shouldn't be ... at least according to the help file.

Go test for yourself !
 

Bill

Hey Whistlingleaf, I think there must be some mistake with your dueling record in World 4. It says you won 902 duels but your dueling level is only 7 levels above your xp level and you said your duel ranking is #3156. It must be a mistake!!!
 

George Hurst

Read the bottom line....
Zero motivation dueler come to take your $$$.
Lots of wins for 0exp.