Duel Mot Split...

DeletedUser

""'Discover new lands and experience exciting new lands and duels' kinda gives the game away... wouldn't you agree?""

Not anymore BMax. "It's scroll across the map, tend pigs, sheer sheep, make LOTS of bonds Fort fighting, and if you duel... just wait 6-9 months from now you will have 20 targets, so make sure not to enjoy dueling!" - TY INNO games.
 

DeletedUser35506

"It's scroll across the map, tend pigs, sheer sheep, make LOTS of bonds Fort fighting, and if you duel... actively duel for 2 weeks from now you will have 10 targets wich take approx 6~10 hours to duel them across the map, so make sure not to enjoy dueling!" - TY INNO games.

Fixed that for you.

You also forgot to mention that when ever you revert your skillset from dueler to say a Adventurer/Quests or Trader (or even a frikking fort fighter for that matter.. thats what you want to hear right??), you'll be targetted nonstop by the same people as a EXP farm.
This is currently a 100% accurate resemblance of me on Dakota. Sounds like i'm having a good time right?


Back in the day where we could actively camp towns like others already mentioned with "features" such as hitting&hiding and a good coordinated dueler town could pretty much halt a town completely from building and other things. I get that element was too infuriating to some but it also made the game matter imo.
We are been given less and less reasons to actual duel in a game that used to be all about dueling. This is the sad truth we live in nowadays.

Anyway.. the newest changes, seperating the NPC/PVP mot sliders will make NPC dueling 100% obsolete with the exception of maybe gathering the (useless) achievements.. whoop-di-frikkin-doo. They'll most likely raise everyone's duel levels at some point in the game and thus limiting their freedom in whom to attack. You will force ZMD's onto attacking the lowest levels in their ranges, wich is turn my guess is that'll piss people even more off.. More travel times and the obvious "I need to hit someone lowest". I cannot believe that this effect is deliberate. Also getting attacked by who deliberately gives you exp to raise your D-lvl so you can get hit by higher levels in his/her seem to become a more viable discussed tactic. Is this by any means deliberate? I most certainly hope not?

TL/DR:

I fixed Smitty's post.
Dueling used to be better.. No surprise there.

I foresee a few things happening with this update:

-ZMD's are forced to attack lowest levels. (Good idea.. srsly?)
-Duelers are semi-forced to travel all around. (More nuggets from cutting travel times.. yea i get it)
-Duelers being limited to less targets because of obvious non-preventable raise of DL.
-Also makes it more likely to being preyed upon by higher levels (looking at you lvl 30 duelers :( )
-NPC dueling is rendered useless (wich it already was, but just sayin)
-Tactics such as deliberately raising one's DL and other abusive stuff being discussed (you really didn't see that comin did you? i mean rly?)
 

DeletedUser

Warning: This post contains common sense.

Hmm, an interesting issue. As others have observed, zero motivation duelling originated and spread during a time before NPC duelling came to be. At the time, the talk of the town was the opposite: that zero motivation would spread like wildfire and harm the game. That happened, to the extent that the current situaiton benefits no camps, but it would be unfair to examine this evidence in isolation. Several other important factors, such as moving duelling from the saloon to the map, the decline in overall player count, addition of new dueller class bonuses and more recently the creation of a high level cluster must be considered.

The decline in player numbers is easy to both over- and understate. Although the absolute drop in player numbers is a low hanging fruit for critics, the wide expanses of level one greenhorns prove are evidence enough that this drop does not equate to lower active players. We can only presume that internal statistics show a similar quota of players quit playing the game before reaching the duelling level range of the majority of the community. The real issue that must be examined is the shift from duelling to fort fighting. No doubt this has had a sizable impact, although I think few would argue if all level 120 specialised duellers were accessible, there would be enough variety of targets.

This does feed into the pressing issue of travel distance, however. Before Version 2.08, it was selfevident the effects of moving the duelling location and the decline in player count vastly outweighed the dueller ability to shave several minutes travel time off each duel. The introduction of a high level area does not appear to have had a sizable impact yet, although it is inevitable that with an aging community, over time activity will further condense in the middle of the map. Instead of visiting several towns to duel multiple targets, one can instead visit several high level job locations to duel multiple targets, as either an aggrevator or defender. The concept of a railroad, briefly introduced in the roadmap, is another light down the tunnel.

This positivity is not immediate, though. The seemingly accidental premature introduction of this change, although of noble intention, cannot be considered beneficial to the game. It is therefore understandable some people have misinterpreted the effects of this change, although there exists a few that ought to know better.

The fundamental assumption underpinning this debate is wrong. The issue need not be worker vs dueller, instead it must be experience dueller vs zero motivation dueller. A series of strange and irreversible circumstances have manifested this environment, in order: the flawed duel level system, shop items being valuable, the existance of the money-motivation quirk, the success of resistance duellers, removing duels from the saloon and finally the tripling of experience values. Punishing zero motivation duellers will not undo this trend when the current circumstances allow no genuine alternative, instead we must seek to address the root of the problem.

History indicates Inno, or INNO if you really must shout like a rampaging buffoon, prefer solutions with a small technical footprint but targeted effect. Therefore, I believe the solution is as clear as crystal:
  • Duelling level must be capped at an arbitrary value, say three times the regular level cap (450). This reflects the reality that duelling level is a measure of past success, not current ability.
  • Duelling experience must rise and fall, again at an arbitrary rate, say one third of the gain rate. This limits the extent to which past success can be a current punishment.
  • Duelling rankings must continue to be based on overall duelling experience gained, sans losses from the recommendation above. This gives the ranking some meaning without negatively impacting current experience duellers.
Several other smaller tweaks could be made, but these are the paradigm shifts necessary to unravel the current mess of a situation. All other debate here is silly politiking worthy only of the Republican Party. Peace!
 
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DeletedUser22685

... FUTU ...

... In response to Futu ...

I don't know where you two guys got the impression that I was arguing with you. Perhaps in my rather long post earlier my position in terms of update equality for duellers was lost. I'm not defending any updates to nerf duelling or appease the job KOing cry babies (it was those guys who I was calling cry babies earlier, not duellers, in case that was misunderstood. It seems a lot of people posting from the duelling point of view here seem to think I was calling them whiners). You're arguing with someone who agrees with you. The only difference between our opinions is that I feel the new system can be fixed, whereas you think it's the end of the world.

I will admit that I didn't realise how big of a problem this would be for the dueller class. Their motivation class bonus must have increased since I left (or since I stopped paying attention).
 

DeletedUser

I love how they did this right before an event giving away bonds etc... Lets take peoples mind off the nasty by giving them something to concentrate on!
 

DeletedUser35506

I love how they did this right before an event giving away bonds etc... Lets take peoples mind off the nasty by giving them something to concentrate on!

because this is first time changes are being made completely unannounced?
Can't believe you are still surprised this is happening.
 

Ripwise

Well-Known Member
because this is first time changes are being made completely unannounced?
Can't believe you are still surprised this is happening.

Changes to dueling were anounced in 2013 roadmap! As for the event, we know that some sort of event is held for such days. What will it be next, you didnt expect Easter event? There is always some sort of excuse trying to be made to justify the whine!
 
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DeletedUser

I love how they did this right before an event giving away bonds etc... Lets take peoples mind off the nasty by giving them something to concentrate on!
because this is first time changes are being made completely unannounced?
Can't believe you are still surprised this is happening.
Both fallacious arguments you have posed, using the term 'argument' loosely. Presenting the announcement style and timing as straw men do not address the flaws in this change, therefore offering no incentive for cranium retrieval into daylight.
 

HelenBack

Well-Known Member
Changes to dueling were anounced in 2013 roadmap! As for the event, we know that some sort of event is held for such days. What will it be next, you didnt expect Easter event? There is always some sort of excuse trying to be made to justify the whine!

From the 2014 RoadMap:
http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?t=54579

Duel System
Evaluate different concepts
Push the interactive duel system prototype we did already
Improve Balancing

From the 2013 RoadMap:
http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?t=52537

New duel system
More interaction (We want to go away from the static pre-calculated duel system).
Maybe special skills that can be activated during the due.

Hmmm.... Sorry... I don't see anything about a war on ZMDs... Nothing about splitting the NPC/PVP duel mots... Maybe it's written in special ink.
:unsure:

BTW... Thank you for reopening this thread... (Whoever you are...)
;)
 

Ripwise

Well-Known Member
And why do you think this is war against ZMDs and why do you think Devs should tell us what are they planing to do in THEIR game?
 

DeletedUser

And why do you think this is war against ZMDs and why do you think Devs should tell us what are they planing to do in THEIR game?


Well Rip, "their" game is dying. It is their own fault. Their constant meddling and tweaking of the game along with their incessant greed with new sets every few weeks has destroyed the game for some. Some call it "rage quitting" when some say they are done. It does not matter. It is still quitting and the worlds get smaller and smaller with each "tweak" of the "Devs. Game". For those that are left, expect Inno to try and suck more nuggets from you as they try to maintain the bottom line.
 

DeletedUser35238

I must say when i came online this morning i was tempted to delete my 0 mot dueler characters, which unfortunately is 4/5 characters lol, i will try this for a while then think in future about what to do. not happy to be honest with you
 

DeletedUser

Umm Rip, as appalling as some of the nasty comments have been here from those who couldn't be bothered to lift a finger to help out (and all praise to you in that sense), it's understandable the change has been perceived as a misplaced crusade. Joony's choice of the word "fight" is regrettable in that sense. There is a fight to be had, however, and it's the one everyone has ignored since my post a page earlier. The "push" factors of experience duelling are causing these well documented issues, no longer the "pull" factors of zero motivation duelling. In the most general sense, addressing the worker v dueller balance does nothing but spread the misnomer further and polarise the debate. *tosses wet cookie*
 

DeletedUser30417

And why do you think this is war against ZMDs and why do you think Devs should tell us what are they planing to do in THEIR game?

Joony said this was the 1st step in fighting ZMD's, so since more steps are to follow this seems very much like a war.

What bothers me the most about the duel motivation changes is that Inno has taken a negative approach in dealing with the ZMD issue. Inno should instead focus at the underlying problems in regards to the dueling level and the lack of diversity in duel builds. When they fix these problems then they could take steps to deal with ZMD's.

Right now they want to destroy a 'way of dueling' without giving back something in return. That doesn't help to improve the dueling aspect of this game, it will only hurt it.

While it's THEIR (Inno's) game, they need OUR (customer's/player's) money to keep it going. So it's in Inno's best interest to keep their customers involved in developing their product.
 

DeletedUser

What bothers me the most about the duel motivation changes is that Inno has taken a negative approach in dealing with the ZMD issue. Inno should instead focus at the underlying problems in regards to the dueling level and the lack of diversity in duel builds. When they fix these problems then they could take steps to deal with ZMD's.

Right now they want to destroy a 'way of dueling' without giving back something in return. That doesn't help to improve the dueling aspect of this game, it will only hurt it.
Ahh, bingo, we're starting to catch on. (Although I'll bet my own hairy ass that the accompanying financial threats will do more harm than good hehe, drop those.) We're in the unfortunate predicament that management is observing a verbal battle between two camps, the workers and the zero motivation duellers, and responding to it. Most ironically, we'd be better placed if they didn't respond to the player concerns, ignoring the mass-hysteria and generalisations. If you all paused to consider Futu's advice for a moment, and ceased complaining about everything from getting duelled, wanting to quit, having more hair on your right than left buttock and everything in between, you may realise the value of the wisdom you were so fortunate to have bestowed upon you. (It really looked like a rainbow hitting you in the ass, I promise.) The answer to worker-rights nonsense is not dueller-rights nonsense, then jumping up and down screaming it like a monkey, and vice versa. Bring something edumacational to the debate, shift it, win it and then change may just follow. Ooh look, do I win something yet? *smirk*
 

HelenBack

Well-Known Member
And why do you think this is war against ZMDs and why do you think Devs should tell us what are they planing to do in THEIR game?

Joony said this was the 1st step in fighting ZMD's, so since more steps are to follow this seems very much like a war.

What bothers me the most about the duel motivation changes is that Inno has taken a negative approach in dealing with the ZMD issue. Inno should instead focus at the underlying problems in regards to the dueling level and the lack of diversity in duel builds. When they fix these problems then they could take steps to deal with ZMD's.

Right now they want to destroy a 'way of dueling' without giving back something in return. That doesn't help to improve the dueling aspect of this game, it will only hurt it.

While it's THEIR (Inno's) game, they need OUR (customer's/player's) money to keep it going. So it's in Inno's best interest to keep their customers involved in developing their product.

Yup... As Magnadine said, it was in Joony's first post regarding the duel mot split when it first hit Beta.

"This is a first step to fight Zero motivation dueling and we are looking forward to your feedback."

I created the feedback thread in Beta since there wasn't one yet... Back on Jan 28th. And there was a lot of discussion regarding both sides of the issue. However, Inno decided to go ahead and release their "update" to the live worlds.... With NO NOTICE to the general public. This was a fairly major change in the way a lot of people will be able to play their game. No one here on .net got a chance to voice their opinions prior to the "update". One would think that with the amount of debate going on in Beta, they might at least reconsider what they were doing... Maybe create a poll on the .net forums and make an ingame announcement for their customers to go and discuss the options or just vote.

I mean, if they actually want their game to succeed, wouldn't it be important to listen to the feedback given by their customers? ZMDs are customers too... A lot of them pay a lot of RL money to get the best gear and probably buy skills too. This was a dueling game to start... All those duelers in the past supported the West financially and helped the West become what it is today... only to continually be forced into a muzzle by those they were supporting. Doesn't seem really fair does it?
:unsure:
 

DeletedUser

Their Game.

You crack me up. Anyone with that attitude should be eliminated from the payroll. It is why companies fail.
 
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