Daily Insights

Status
Not open for further replies.

DeletedUser

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
~Thomas Jefferson
 

DeletedUser

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
~Thomas Jefferson
And in rebuttal:

"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
~ Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800


And back to my previous point:

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." ~ Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782)
 

DeletedUser

Faith and Reason are like the shoes on your feet.
You get further with two than just the one

 

DeletedUser

Faith and Reason are like the shoes on your feet.
You get further with two than just the one
And now, of course, is the chuckle: You quoted a script line in a television series, Babylon 5, episode "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars," said by the character, Brother Alwyn.


In rebuttal:

"Nowhere am I so desperately needed as among a shipload of illogical humans." ~ Spock in episode, "I, Mudd" of the original Star Trek series.
 

DeletedUser

Actually, yes it does make it less true. It was a line from a science "fantasy" television series, posing a concept not grounded in "reality." If you're going to try and grab a quote, the least you could do is get it from a legitimate source. Or would you prefer we all start quoting Flintstone, Bugs Bunny, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer?


"And remember, 'mud' spelled backwards is 'dum'." ~ Bugs Bunny
 

DeletedUser

Actually, yes it does make it less true. It was a line from a science "fantasy" television series, posing a concept not grounded in "reality." If you're going to try and grab a quote, the least you could do is get it from a legitimate source. Or would you prefer we all start quoting Flintstone, Bugs Bunny, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer?


"And remember, 'mud' spelled backwards is 'dum'." ~ Bugs Bunny

And HOW isn't it grounded in reality?

I feel the quote is VERY grounded in reality, and here's why.. To try to explain everything with reason, is impossible.. To take everything on faith would be folly.. But sometimes you just have to take something on faith, and something with reason..

People who are able to take things both on faith, and also use their own reason and common sense gets further than people who just takes everything on faith, or people who demands that everything should be proven, even things that cannot be proven når disproven..
 

DeletedUser

And in rebuttal:

"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
~ Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800


And back to my previous point:

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." ~ Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782)

I'm not sure how that's a rebuttal. There are a lot of things that I dislike, but don't think the government should have any say about. I also don't see how you not being a Christian in any way harms those who are. Non-believers are also not harmed by the thoughts or words of believers either, but unfortunately things too often go beyond just words.
 

DeletedUser

As I said earlier in my post, brother Hellstromm; just to share, and not to stir provocation.
Now, let's take it from your own words of "assumption". If it's such a mistake for you to assume, then firstly why is there ever such a word? And isn't this assumption also the main thing relied upon by the "Big Bang" theory of the scholarly scientists? If nothing is nothing; we go back to the very first question...if there was totally nothing, how come there was a big bang in the first place? Wasn't it true that the big bang came from something as well? Now, these that caused the big bang, therefore is something, and comes again the question - where did it come from?

As I've mentioned before, I'm just sharing my thought. If it doesn't cater to your liking, it's okay with me. However, to make a discussion that later results to a would-be debate would be like discussing it to a child. Yes, don't worry..the childlike would be Me. For I am not scholarly, nor much learned in your field of understanding; but as I said before - where reasons end, that's where Faith begins. And that's just me...

No offense, just trying to convey my point of sharing. :nowink:

* * * * * * *

24th OF MAY, 2010

Gospel for today:
Mark 10:17-27 The Rich Man

Food for thought:
The more you love Jesus, the more you’ll talk about Him.
:indian:
 

DeletedUser

And to brother Lou Kane, I agree with you. I see you have wisdom in you. :)
 

DeletedUser

People who are able to take things both on faith, and also use their own reason and common sense gets further than people who just takes everything on faith, or people who demands that everything should be proven, even things that cannot be proven når disproven..
And do you have any proof of this claim? No, of course not, because those without this so-called faith get just as far in life as those who do not. In fact, I could pose just the opposite (sans proof, as you just did), that those without faith approach in a much more regimental and responsible fashion, thus are more likely to become successful.

I'm not sure how that's a rebuttal. There are a lot of things that I dislike, but don't think the government should have any say about. I also don't see how you not being a Christian in any way harms those who are. Non-believers are also not harmed by the thoughts or words of believers either, but unfortunately things too often go beyond just words.
We had this discussion before Artemis, but I'll reiterate. It is not even remotely true that non-believers are not harmed by the thoughts or words of believers, and especially not by their actions. The Inquisition is a prime example but, for more recent incidents, we have the attack on same-sex marriage, the murdering of abortion doctors, the killing of Judeo-Christians by Muslims, the killing of Muslims by Judeo-Christians, the words and actions of the Westboro Baptist Church (at soldier funerals and otherwise), the ostracizing, physical abuse, incarceration and murder of bi/homo/transexuals, the whole-scale undermining of scientific discovery and education, the brutal utilization of religion as a means to recruit people into hate groups such as KKK and the White Supremacist movement, the manipulation and exploitation of ignorant folk into believing stem cell research is evil, the blatant lies posed about how the Earth, and all life in it, is here for us to harvest at our leisure and that God will provide when all evidence demonstrates we're exhausting its resources and posing to extinction its so-called harvest of plants/forests/animals, the ignorance bent into the minds of our youth into thinking evolution is not factual when it is both fact and theory, the deceptive inclusion of puritanical laws into both State and Nation, the suppression of women's rights, etc and so on.

Artemis, Christianity, religion as a whole, DOES hurt everyone. Words are not the end page of this and claiming such is simply a false presentation of the severity of this problem plaguing both our nations and the world.

Now, let's take it from your own words of "assumption". If it's such a mistake for you to assume, then firstly why is there ever such a word? And isn't this assumption also the main thing relied upon by the "Big Bang" theory of the scholarly scientists? If nothing is nothing; we go back to the very first question...if there was totally nothing, how come there was a big bang in the first place? Wasn't it true that the big bang came from something as well? Now, these that caused the big bang, therefore is something, and comes again the question - where did it come from?
Why is there a word called assumption? Oh, I don't know, maybe for the same reason there's a word called ignorance, or hate, or destruction, or denial. Because it exists.

And no, assumption is not the main thing relied upon by the "Big Bang" theory, it is evidence --- data. Substantial evidence, presented by the motions of the galaxies, the expansion of the universe, and the singular path away from a particular point in space that serves as the evidence of a Big Bang. Inclusive of this is the various particle and wave studies performed demonstrating a sort of evolution in molecular complexity.

As to what the Big Bang came from, all is not yet known. It is not known what came before the Big Bang. For the most part, suppositions are presented and postulated upon. But here's the big difference Angle: the scientific community doesn't presume to know the answers to things they do not yet know the answers to. They do not claim a falsehood, or an unknown, as FACT. It is, in contrast, the approach of religions to pose FACTs out of nothing, with no evidence whatsoever. Claims are made on a daily basis of GOD having created the universe, and there is absolutely nothing to support this, nothing. The transliterated 2,000+ year old words of primitive men in togas is not support, it is not evidence, and it is clearly not educated (any reasonably sane person, using a modicum of logic would come to this conclusion, but dogmatism is an onerous pet and an expensive one to feed).

The scientific community has some base assumptions, but it is these base assumptions that stand as reliable laws on the ways and actions of the universe and our daily lives. Laws of motion, of energy, of matter. These laws are assumptions, but they are based on irrefutable evidence and our ability to manipulate motion, energy and matter is demonstrative of the correctness of these assumptions. In fact, our lives, our sanity, relies on our comprehension and acceptance of these most basic laws. Why? Because without them we could just as well believe we're imagining everything that is happening around us and thus not make any effort whatsoever to co-exist or even interact with this assumed reality.

So, what was all that about? It's an effort for me to explain the difference between grounded, evidence-based assumption (natural laws), and fantasy-based delusions not grounded in any evidence whatsoever. The postulations of religions are not based on any evidence. Religion, beliefs, stand as their own base, and on top of that base of assumption are notions used to support the assumption, whilst ignoring and/or dismissing any data that is contra to that assumption. This is not even remotely acceptable because, when there is evidence in contra, it firmly disputes the assumption (null & void). But, it is the way that religion works and it is this distortion of analytical thought that is one of the most destructive aspects of religion, of belief. It does not pose a different way of thinking, it poses an unhealthy, a wrong way, of thinking (dogmatism).



"A dogmatical spirit inclines a man to be censorious of his neighbors. Every one of his opinions appears to him written, as it were, with sunbeams, and he grows angry that his neighbors do not see it in the same light. He is tempted to disdain his correspondents as men of low and dark understandings because they do not believe what he does." ~ Isaac Watts
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Hellstrom.. if you play dice or poker, then you sometimes have to take things on faith.. Faith that you will f.i. manage to bluff your opponent at the pokertable when you only have 2 deuces on your hand...

At the same time, you must also be able to use your reason and common sense to not go hog wild when you bet. Thus manage to avoid burning yourself uneccessary...

Get my drift?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Hellstrom.. if you play dice or poker, then you sometimes have to take things on faith.. Faith that you will f.i. manage to bluff your opponent at the pokertable when you only have 2 deuces on your hand..
Get my drift?
Are you honestly going to transpose 'faith' as the wrong definition for someone gambling? Is it your contention that faith is a gamble? Because if such is so, I would have to direct you to this thread, where you will be summarily pwnd --- Pascal's Wager.

If we're not going to take it in that direction, then I could take it that you're simply posing "experience" as faith. For, as it is, it is the experienced player, who can read body language and various "data" provided by his opponent, as a means to determine the likelihood this person will either bluff, or be bluffed.

So, no, you are dismissing the entire process of education and learning, the counting of cards, the understanding of the odds, and of body language as data, and tossing into a bucket you incorrectly labeled as 'faith.' Also, if you state only on the "odds," and not on any actual learned information, it isn't faith, it is gambling. You don't have faith that a coin will turn up heads, you have a 50% chance.


"When people are taken out of their depths they lose their heads, no matter how charming a bluff they may put up." ~ F. Scott Fitzgerald
 

nashy19

Nashy (as himself)
Hellstrom.. if you play dice or poker, then you sometimes have to take things on faith.. Faith that you will f.i. manage to bluff your opponent at the pokertable when you only have 2 deuces on your hand...

At the same time, you must also be able to use your reason and common sense to not go hog wild when you bet. Thus manage to avoid burning yourself uneccessary...

Get my drift?

Having faith will never increase your odds while gambling. Reasoning in not limited to that "over-protective parent" style of reasoning, which isn't well reasoned at all. If you decide that the riskier approach to a gambling game is the best one to take, you do so for a reason (although you are not always right), that could be something as small as observing other peoples outcomes or taking others advice. You are calling it "faith" but you seem to have decided which approach is the best, I know you didn't make that decision randomly.
 

DeletedUser

@ brother Hellstromm, as I said earlier it would be like discussing it with the childlike... and thereby, the latter would be Myself. You say it comes from evidence - where did such evidence come from? And as I've mentioned earlier, the Big Bang was still "assumed" to have happened, a theory based on such evidences you mentioned. And so again this evidences came from something, something which started started/caused the Big Bang. And we go back to the first question wherein both believers and scientists are at a blank, where did it come from. The very first thing, most likely came from something. And for such that actually has neither answers not actual hard facts to it, I speak for myself, I keep my Faith. Again, my initial sharing was just to share, no need for a prolonged discussion, esp if you are to discuss it with the "childlike".

@ brother John Rose .. I agree/agreed with brother Lou Kane for we both believe in Faith. And though you most likely disagree with such Faith,you still have my respect, as well as brother Hellstromm, and all those I may have encountered along the way, both online and non-online. :laugh:

* * * * * * *

25th OF MAY, 2010

Gospel for today:
Mark 10:28-31 Hundredfold Reward


Food for thought:
We honor God when we honor one another.
:indian:

 

DeletedUser

@ brother Hellstromm, as I said earlier it would be like discussing it with the childlike... and thereby, the latter would be Myself. You say it comes from evidence - where did such evidence come from? And as I've mentioned earlier, the Big Bang was still "assumed" to have happened, a theory based on such evidences you mentioned. And so again this evidences came from something, something which started started/caused the Big Bang. And we go back to the first question wherein both believers and scientists are at a blank, where did it come from. The very first thing, most likely came from something. And for such that actually has neither answers not actual hard facts to it, I speak for myself, I keep my Faith. Again, my initial sharing was just to share, no need for a prolonged discussion, esp if you are to discuss it with the "childlike".
I don't know what you mean by, "childlike," and I doubt anyone else does. Maybe you might want to illuminate upon that word, or at least how you are using it in context.

As to this assumption facet --- no, you're wrong. The Big Bang was not "assumed" to have happened, and it is your lack of comprehension on what it is that constitutes assumption which is tripping you up. The Big Bang theory is based on examined, verifiable, data obtained from observing the light/energy/particle activity and detailed examinations of celestial bodies. There is movement, motion, action and interaction, all of which is examined through a complex series of light/energy/wave/particle analysis and extensive, computer-dependent, mathematical computations, resulting in visual 2D and 3D reproductions. This is not assumption, but pattern analysis, and the research is substantial. In fact, it's astronomical.

In contrast, the Christian argument of First Cause relies entirely upon baseless assumptions, with no data or evidence whatsoever. But, more to the crux of the matter, it (First Cause) is not held to be an assumption, it is held to be FACT. And this, dear sir, is where it fails completely, because you cannot possibly have facts from assumptions, sans any evidence whatsoever. It falls into the same baseless category as claiming there are magically invisible dust bunnies living in your crotch.


“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, It's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, And that enables you to laugh at life's realities.”
~ Dr. Suess
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

I don't know what you mean by, "childlike," and I doubt anyone else does. Maybe you might want to illuminate upon that word, or at least how you are using it in context.

As to this assumption facet --- no, you're wrong. The Big Bang was not "assumed" to have happened, and it is your lack of comprehension on what it is that constitutes assumption which is tripping you up. The Big Bang theory is based on examined, verifiable, data obtained from observing the light/energy/particle activity and detailed examinations of celestial bodies. There is movement, motion, action and interaction, all of which is examined through a complex series of light/energy/wave/particle analysis and extensive, computer-dependent, mathematical computations, resulting in visual 2D and 3D reproductions. This is not assumption, but pattern analysis, and the research is substantial. In fact, it's astronomical.

There are facts, which are true regardless of your existence or thought. And then there is the interpretation of facts, to which you may continue to apply your rose-colored glasses within your hyper-humanistic material world view. You lack the discerning insight that Hawking has, when he noted "Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?". S.W. Hawking, A Brief History of Time—From the Big Bang to Black Holes, Bantam Books, New York, U.S.A.

Well, let's talk about your observable patterns. Improved equipment and observational methods have shaken the "big-bang" theory's core foundations. News Flash: Many astronomers are now raising substantial arguments against the theory.

If the universe proceeded from your big bang, then matter would be evenly distributed. However, the FACT is, the distribution of mass throughout the universe is extremely uneven. Look up Geller and Huchra, 2 astronomers that sought to find evidence for the big bang by initiating a measuring system. Using large star maps, they hoped to see that matter is evenly or uniformly distributed when a large enough scale is utilized. However, the more they pursued this, the more it became apparent that distant galaxies were clustered (like continents) way past almost empty regions of space. This shakes the theory severely. Furthermore, many of the galaxies that we can see don't contain enough mass to explain the existence and distribution of these structures.....so what do the brilliant objective scientists do? Why, invent dark matter, without any direct evidence for it's existence! Dark matter is said to be 10 times the amount of visibly observed mass. Perhaps we just need to take that on faith.

Listen instead perhaps, to Ernst Peter Fischer, physicist from Germany on the popularity of the big bang belief:

… warning given by [physicist and philosopher] Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker … namely that a society which accepts the idea that the origin of the cosmos could be explained in terms of an explosion, reveals more about the society itself than about the universe. Nevertheless, the many observations made during the past 25 years or so which contradict the standard model, are simply ignored. When fact and theory contradict each other, one of them has to yield.’ E.P. Fischer (Ed.), Neue Horizonte 92/93—Ein Forum der Naturwissenschaften—Piper-Verlag, München, Germany, pp. 112–173, 1993.

Ahhh, that is so you Hellstrom, who stands on theory as fact whilst ignoring what is so obvious to so many.

Or there Halton C. Arp connected to some of our major observatories on why the big bang bites-

Since antiquity, ideas of the universe have varied widely, depending on assumptions about factual observations. The current idea of a big bang has been the standard model for about 60 years. But, in the mean time, the number of observations that negate the assumption that the red shift of the light of distant galaxies can be explained by recessive motions, is increasing.....In my opinion the observations speak a different language; they call for a different view of the universe. I believe that the big bang theory should be replaced, because it is no longer a valid theory.""E.P. Fischer (Ed.), Neue Horizonte 92/93—Ein Forum der Naturwissenschaften—Piper-Verlag, München, Germany, pp. 113, 1993.

Back to Germany, where Professor Hans Jorg of the Institute for Astrophysics at Bonn U states:

‘The universe originated about 20 thousand million years ago in a cosmic explosion (the big bang), it has been expanding ever since, and it will continue to do so until the end of time … This sounds convincing, and it is accepted by all present-day mainstream “natural philosophers.” But it should be obvious that a doctrine which is acclaimed noisily, is not necessarily close to the truth. In the field of cosmology the widely supported big bang theory is not more convincing than other alternatives. In fact, there are surprisingly many alternatives.’H.J. Fahr, Der Urknall kommt zu Fall Kosmologie im Umbruch—Franckh-Kosmos Verlag, Stuttgart, Germany, Pg 9-10, 1992.

There are many other major problems with the big bang theory and the supposed formation of stars in relation to it. Your intolerance of any opposing view bespeaks of foolishness, not wisdom. You claim there is no evidence to support the biblical view of the origins of the universe, so you therefore know nothing of the recession of the moon, the magnetic field of planets, spiral galaxies, comets (and the lack of evidence for "Oort clouds", right up there with "dark matter") and the evidence these provide for a younger universe than is commonly believed. Ever heard of "extrasolar" planets? More evidence that is consistent with a biblical view of solar system formation, and at odds with the evolutionary models.



I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, It's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, And that enables you to laugh at life's realities.” ~ Dr. Suess[/SIZE]

At least your taunting ridicule, unlike some others here, is accompanied by a close approximation of meaningful dialog although you are not always able to respond. You should really chill out a bit, and look at the big picture. Like I've said before, your positions are extreme, even more so than Dawkins. Makes me wonder why you have the axe to grind that you do....

Relaxedly yours,

Seamus
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top