DeletedUser15641
Well maybe fort fighters are exhausted...via wants a fun battle which they can win/lose....they would probably get exp and bonds...
Why don't you fort fight?
- Thread starter Bad Billy Jack
- Start date
DeletedUser
OK, just had to post a few more reasons and solutions to the fort fighting dilemma:
First, for people who stop coming because they don't get included in battles (and that includes a lot more than we realize because those of us reading this here are, for the most part, the active and experienced fort fighters):
#20 in my top 10 list : Make participation in fort battles based on a first come, first serve basis and throw out the entire ranking process in-so-far as who gets into a battle or not. If you're defending a small fort and you're one of the first 42 to sign up AND you're at the fort, you're IN. What's wrong with this ... EVERYTHING ... and that's what makes it so great. First of all, people who sign up know if they're going to get into a fort battle when they sign up, and it takes it out of the hand of the elitist rankers. I'd do the autoranking as onliners in the order they signed up, offliners in the order they signed up. The leaders and fort owners won't have this high HP or by alliance/town clique system anymore, if you see someone signup who isn't going to be a good fort fighter then either train them or duel them before they get to the fort to KO them and send them home or negotiate with them to not show up. With this in place then everybody has an equal chance (more or less) of getting into fort fights and players aren't complaining about not being ranked by other players. Exceptions could be made for attacking towns and fort owners/members but that would be as far as you could nerf this idea and even that might be too much. Would this hurt the strength of the attacking and defending forces? Of course it would, in the short run, but overall we'd have higher turnouts for battles because more people would/could be included. The damage to the strength of the attacking/defending forces should, over time, be about equal so this suggestion should favor neither side over the other. I can think of a possible exploit but it would require a significant conspiracy effort or the use of multi-accounts to do so and it would be much more inclusive to the participants of fort fighting battles.
Second, there's a saying "out of sight, out of mind" so place a fort fighting scrolling marquee line across the top.
Where your current job is presently listed is an area of the screen that could be turned into a "scrolling banner". This banner would list any fort battles where your alliance is either an attacking or defending member. If you've already signed up for a battle then that battle would be highlighted and all battles with an earlier time would be excluded from the banner (since you've obviously already seen those other battles and chosen to not participate in them). An additional type of font could be used if there were insufficient members defending/attacking a battle and it was close to battle time (this would be great for many because you're virtually assured a place in the fort). The banner could be updated whenever a job or action in the game was initiated or completed so it didn't require a constant RSS feed type of addition to the game (Keep It Sweet and Simple - KISS). Here's an example of how this could work:
Battles:
Fort Dixie : 1:20 from now with your alliance attacking
Fort Jackson : 3:54 from now with your alliance defending
Fort Hopeless : 17:00 from now but not an alliance attack or defense
Fort Never : 23:00 from now defending
If you signed up for Fort Jackson, but no other battles then Fort Dixie would not be displayed in your alert so it would look like:
"You are currently 'doing a job/sleeping' ... Defend Fort Jackson in 3:54, Fort Never is under attack in 23:00"
(Fort Hopeless could be included as a general statement or ignored as an alert. If it were included then the message would be 'Battle at Fort Hopeless in 17:00')
There could also be a control to turn off all battles, all defenses, all attacks, all non-alliance battles.
This way, everyone would see the battles constantly scrolling but it would not be something that was so 'in your face' that it would effect the playing or the enjoyment of the game for anyone.
Want to see a sample and how easy it is to code, then go to this site or any of more than a dozen like it to generate your own marquee : http://www.htmlmarquee.com/generators.html
First, for people who stop coming because they don't get included in battles (and that includes a lot more than we realize because those of us reading this here are, for the most part, the active and experienced fort fighters):
#20 in my top 10 list : Make participation in fort battles based on a first come, first serve basis and throw out the entire ranking process in-so-far as who gets into a battle or not. If you're defending a small fort and you're one of the first 42 to sign up AND you're at the fort, you're IN. What's wrong with this ... EVERYTHING ... and that's what makes it so great. First of all, people who sign up know if they're going to get into a fort battle when they sign up, and it takes it out of the hand of the elitist rankers. I'd do the autoranking as onliners in the order they signed up, offliners in the order they signed up. The leaders and fort owners won't have this high HP or by alliance/town clique system anymore, if you see someone signup who isn't going to be a good fort fighter then either train them or duel them before they get to the fort to KO them and send them home or negotiate with them to not show up. With this in place then everybody has an equal chance (more or less) of getting into fort fights and players aren't complaining about not being ranked by other players. Exceptions could be made for attacking towns and fort owners/members but that would be as far as you could nerf this idea and even that might be too much. Would this hurt the strength of the attacking and defending forces? Of course it would, in the short run, but overall we'd have higher turnouts for battles because more people would/could be included. The damage to the strength of the attacking/defending forces should, over time, be about equal so this suggestion should favor neither side over the other. I can think of a possible exploit but it would require a significant conspiracy effort or the use of multi-accounts to do so and it would be much more inclusive to the participants of fort fighting battles.
Second, there's a saying "out of sight, out of mind" so place a fort fighting scrolling marquee line across the top.
Where your current job is presently listed is an area of the screen that could be turned into a "scrolling banner". This banner would list any fort battles where your alliance is either an attacking or defending member. If you've already signed up for a battle then that battle would be highlighted and all battles with an earlier time would be excluded from the banner (since you've obviously already seen those other battles and chosen to not participate in them). An additional type of font could be used if there were insufficient members defending/attacking a battle and it was close to battle time (this would be great for many because you're virtually assured a place in the fort). The banner could be updated whenever a job or action in the game was initiated or completed so it didn't require a constant RSS feed type of addition to the game (Keep It Sweet and Simple - KISS). Here's an example of how this could work:
Battles:
Fort Dixie : 1:20 from now with your alliance attacking
Fort Jackson : 3:54 from now with your alliance defending
Fort Hopeless : 17:00 from now but not an alliance attack or defense
Fort Never : 23:00 from now defending
If you signed up for Fort Jackson, but no other battles then Fort Dixie would not be displayed in your alert so it would look like:
"You are currently 'doing a job/sleeping' ... Defend Fort Jackson in 3:54, Fort Never is under attack in 23:00"
(Fort Hopeless could be included as a general statement or ignored as an alert. If it were included then the message would be 'Battle at Fort Hopeless in 17:00')
There could also be a control to turn off all battles, all defenses, all attacks, all non-alliance battles.
This way, everyone would see the battles constantly scrolling but it would not be something that was so 'in your face' that it would effect the playing or the enjoyment of the game for anyone.
Want to see a sample and how easy it is to code, then go to this site or any of more than a dozen like it to generate your own marquee : http://www.htmlmarquee.com/generators.html
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DeletedUser
Im a little out of fort battles because, right now, Health is 99% of the battle.
Everything else can be bought (or made).
A team that is mainly health can win easily against others that have different skills.
If there is a change where people mainly health will be without evasion and aim it would get more people into the fights and more fair fights.
Last night my alliance lost a fort because of an adventurer with 4000 health points that got on the flag, and stayed there for 3 rounds alone against 38 defenders firing on him. On those 3 rounds we only got 5 hits on him. That got time for the others to get in and get the flag.
He got the bonus active on those 3 rounds and it was alone on the flag. I was on a tower and didn´t got the bonus for the 12 rounds i was there and was killed by the 10 shot on the same round(evaded 4 on that round before been killed) ... but i only started with less than half of his health.
That makes people that gets into jobs or other things less active on fort fights. Because they will get killed and lose almost everytime.
On many servers the alliance get 50 to 100 players and only collect things for the craft and skill only on health and some few more things. And they will get wins, almost everytime.
So the other ones are getting away from the forts and less people is showing up for the battles.
Everything else can be bought (or made).
A team that is mainly health can win easily against others that have different skills.
If there is a change where people mainly health will be without evasion and aim it would get more people into the fights and more fair fights.
Last night my alliance lost a fort because of an adventurer with 4000 health points that got on the flag, and stayed there for 3 rounds alone against 38 defenders firing on him. On those 3 rounds we only got 5 hits on him. That got time for the others to get in and get the flag.
He got the bonus active on those 3 rounds and it was alone on the flag. I was on a tower and didn´t got the bonus for the 12 rounds i was there and was killed by the 10 shot on the same round(evaded 4 on that round before been killed) ... but i only started with less than half of his health.
That makes people that gets into jobs or other things less active on fort fights. Because they will get killed and lose almost everytime.
On many servers the alliance get 50 to 100 players and only collect things for the craft and skill only on health and some few more things. And they will get wins, almost everytime.
So the other ones are getting away from the forts and less people is showing up for the battles.
WanderingStranger
Well-Known Member
How would you stop abuse of this? Have an allied alliance send 10 people under 1k health to the defense of a small and suddenly your attack is much more likely to win.
How would people develop strategy? You have 100 people sign up for a small attack and 30 of them are offline out of 50 because you cant get onliners in.
I am so tired of the HP excuse.
Lets look at what would happen if no one put points into HP with a simple word problem.
1 defender at level 120 with no points in health, no named or quest items would have around 2000 HP with the best possible HP gear.
Lets say you can focus 25 shots on 1 defender. The 1 defender dodges about 66% of these shots meaning only 8 of them hit. At a 250+ average damage for a precise winchester that means they take 2000 damage.
2000 minus 2000 = KOed
So in Conclusion Anyone who mounted point would die. So if you cleared 1 tower you now have 50 guns on 1 person for 4k damage.
Imagine 50 guns in a medium thats maybe 4k damage? 70 in a large is maybe 5500? WHO WOULD EVER TAKE POINT ANYWHERE?! Not the guy with 2k. He cant even be bothered to put points in HP. He just wants the exp while everyone else dies for him so he can get exp.
I am fine with 2k players in a fight but blaming the people keeping you alive when they dont receive the same benefit from you is just stupid in my opinion.
*EDIT* This is not for you personally. This is for everyone who complains about people with HP without realizing what that HP does for them. Everyone who complains about HP take the time to go through my math and honestly ask yourself "WOULD I BE WILLING TO DIE FIRST? Then ask "HOW MANY TIMES WOULD I IF NO ONE ELSE WAS WILLING TO?".
Anyone who was around early in 15 can tell you, I asked myself these questions and I was the first or one of the first to die a lot and honestly it took a long time for there to be more than a few of us. Confirmation if you were not there can be done with a simple look at westforts. I have the most fights by far and yet I am not even in the top 10 in damage on wesforts because I was willing and did die early a lot to keep everyone else alive.
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DeletedUser16008
This is simply not true on many details.
1 As a pure dex shooter soldier with 0 on hp and 0 on the strength line i still have 3250 hp with just kit alone at lvl 120 ... thats not even close to 2k and not even a point buying world either so don't try to exaggerate by 60%
2 If your an adven you'll ghost and rarely lose more than 1.5 k in a round anyway.
3 There are plenty melee and pure strength people of all classes at 4 - 6k already with soldiers around 4k at the minimum to 6k hp if pure strength and non prem, to 7k if your prem bounus is activated this includes 0 SP added to hp
This just tells me you are exactly the player that wont take point unless you have enough hp to be comfortable with to last longer than you need. You have 12k there, totally over the top
No one is suggesting no hp be allowed to be added just not to the extreme allowing hundreds of 10k + tanks like it has got to on 15, where coincidently no one has raved about there being great battles and fun, 7k should be more than enough. You die because you don't know when to or how to move or ask for a swop in time, thats the reason nothing more, a tank is a tank until hes got regular hp at that time its time to stop being a hero, change position or swop and try to stay alive a bit longer to add your firepower to your teams, if your dead you are not helping either them or yourself.
Please don't take this personally but you don't have a clue what your talking about and you are blaming others for playing the rest of the game. You obviously decided to take on a role and expect to be applauded for being the teams heroic shooting gallery until dead, instead of knowing your limits .. more fool you
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DeletedUser
@WanderingStranger you are making some "strange" numbers:
66% evading on all shots? Where?
(im an adventurer on 5 worlds and in over 400 battles i only saw the bonus working on me for 2 times (i don´t have premium anywhere)).
On the 3 worlds where i have ALL the jobs opened without any buff, and with over 400 different items to use (some of them named and rare) i can get around 2500 of health... yeah... but my numbers will dwell the remaining things. The others have 5000 or more and they can use the other normal itens.
On the other side if i have the normal use clothes for a battle, i can get 1900 health... but why bother? if a guy with 6000 health and normal clothes can get me in 2 of 4 shots he makes... and i can get him on 2 of 4 shots i make. (and there im using your numbers)
So basically the points i have on appearance(over 200), evasion (a little over 80) and aim (over 160) doesn´t give me anything for the fort battle... since i can only make the same thing he does.
In the end he can get me 2500 hp and i can get him something over it. But im dead and he can still fight 3 others at the same time.
That´s why people that only do fort fights get 70% or more points into health.
They know that everything else is just for raising the randomness of the hits and misses.
So the other skills are just an extra...
So if they can change the rules for the battles, like raising the use of the "secondary" skills, the battles would be great, since the tanks wouldn´t get 2 hits on 4 rounds on the other side... but getting 1 in each 5 or 6 rounds would be a great point for them. And they would get hit for 3 out of 4 that was fired against them. That way people would get points to the other skills and been a tanker wouldn´t get you a massive advantage like it happens now.
I know that many people that only have health where always crying around since they couldn´t get the quests because they couldn´t do them... now they can do everything just buying things from the shop.
66% evading on all shots? Where?
(im an adventurer on 5 worlds and in over 400 battles i only saw the bonus working on me for 2 times (i don´t have premium anywhere)).
On the 3 worlds where i have ALL the jobs opened without any buff, and with over 400 different items to use (some of them named and rare) i can get around 2500 of health... yeah... but my numbers will dwell the remaining things. The others have 5000 or more and they can use the other normal itens.
On the other side if i have the normal use clothes for a battle, i can get 1900 health... but why bother? if a guy with 6000 health and normal clothes can get me in 2 of 4 shots he makes... and i can get him on 2 of 4 shots i make. (and there im using your numbers)
So basically the points i have on appearance(over 200), evasion (a little over 80) and aim (over 160) doesn´t give me anything for the fort battle... since i can only make the same thing he does.
In the end he can get me 2500 hp and i can get him something over it. But im dead and he can still fight 3 others at the same time.
That´s why people that only do fort fights get 70% or more points into health.
They know that everything else is just for raising the randomness of the hits and misses.
So the other skills are just an extra...
So if they can change the rules for the battles, like raising the use of the "secondary" skills, the battles would be great, since the tanks wouldn´t get 2 hits on 4 rounds on the other side... but getting 1 in each 5 or 6 rounds would be a great point for them. And they would get hit for 3 out of 4 that was fired against them. That way people would get points to the other skills and been a tanker wouldn´t get you a massive advantage like it happens now.
I know that many people that only have health where always crying around since they couldn´t get the quests because they couldn´t do them... now they can do everything just buying things from the shop.
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WanderingStranger
Well-Known Member
Soldier.... So you are ignoring the other 3 classes. Yes I did exclude soldiers. I also didnt figure in crits. So I focus on 3/4 and you give 1/4 as an example. Thats some nice math.
This just shows your ignorance. I can bring dozens if not hundreds of players who would disagree with you.
You focused on me as a player and missed the whole point of the post.
People attack tanks because they have HP and this makes them more useful in fort fights so people that dont have it are less likely to get in. I am fine with people doing other things but why attack those with HP that you are happy to hide behind in a fight when you are not willing to do the job yourself.
that was for dodging on a tower on point. The number is probably a bit high for an average but I gave it the best possible chance.
I agree and yet instead of working on raising the values of the other skills people just attack HP.
You just made the point that it is easier to reskill now. Even before the Bond Shop started most fort fighters did most of the quests.
I was going to ignore this because it is such an insane statement.
Attacking a player you dont know and about situations you didnt bother to research is quite odd behavior for a Forum Mod.
Chances are the people you would consider the best fighters, most knowledgeable, and best fight leaders, consider me one of the best fighters, most knowledgeable, and best fight leaders.
Yet instead of checking you make a personal attack. Childish.
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DeletedUser16008
Hehe not being personal just stating the facts. HP overkill has been said time and time again, makes forts less not more exciting for the general player base. I included adventurer, the other 2 classes are exactly the same. I figured youd work that bit out for yourself. Your quip and being a soldier yourself is a bit hypocritical to your argument dont you think ? Which is why i focused on your class as the example, duh.
You know what i say to your normal player hp hiding comment if i was one there in your alliance of huggers ? crack on without me & see you on the other side. Yeesh what an opinion of regular players, must make you real popular. Get over your importance as a tank, its the resistance dueler version of forts,nothing special.
Bring them m8 a dozen would be cool, your a perfect example I like using good examples and yup you move or swop very often much too late and die. Whatever your gameplan is on attack.
My postion has nothing to do with it nor is relevant, im a player. I have indeed done my research and nope i don't agree you move that well. I dont consider the best ranked fighters to be automatically either of the 2 latter boasts, very often they sure arn't all it takes now is lots of HP, activity, nuggets and los, mostly being a dueler class these days, not brain surgery.
You may consider what you will, tanks are for the most part there because it was not considered as an issue in the original fort set up, thats innos mistake for allowing it where it is. S'ok tho this game is really kicking lately in forts I must say.
Yea your right i don't know anything about forts or large attacks and regular hp makes it impossible to enjoy forts
You know what i say to your normal player hp hiding comment if i was one there in your alliance of huggers ? crack on without me & see you on the other side. Yeesh what an opinion of regular players, must make you real popular. Get over your importance as a tank, its the resistance dueler version of forts,nothing special.
Bring them m8 a dozen would be cool, your a perfect example I like using good examples and yup you move or swop very often much too late and die. Whatever your gameplan is on attack.
My postion has nothing to do with it nor is relevant, im a player. I have indeed done my research and nope i don't agree you move that well. I dont consider the best ranked fighters to be automatically either of the 2 latter boasts, very often they sure arn't all it takes now is lots of HP, activity, nuggets and los, mostly being a dueler class these days, not brain surgery.
You may consider what you will, tanks are for the most part there because it was not considered as an issue in the original fort set up, thats innos mistake for allowing it where it is. S'ok tho this game is really kicking lately in forts I must say.
Yea your right i don't know anything about forts or large attacks and regular hp makes it impossible to enjoy forts
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DeletedUser15699
Just disable alliances and maybe FFs will be the way they were once. FUN
WanderingStranger
Well-Known Member
You still dont get the point.
You just attack me as a player over and over and use sarcasm to obscure the issue.
Low HP can hide behind high HP. Thats how it should work.
But then why attack high HP if you do?
It is a reflex action. Attack high HP instead of working to fix the issue by increasing the value of other skills.
If you attack me as a person in another post I will just be done here. I avoided this forum because in every post about HP I saw anyone who didnt immediately say HP is bad was attacked as wrong/stupid/only caring about tanks without anyone bothering to see if their points make sense.
You just attack me as a player over and over and use sarcasm to obscure the issue.
Low HP can hide behind high HP. Thats how it should work.
But then why attack high HP if you do?
It is a reflex action. Attack high HP instead of working to fix the issue by increasing the value of other skills.
If you attack me as a person in another post I will just be done here. I avoided this forum because in every post about HP I saw anyone who didnt immediately say HP is bad was attacked as wrong/stupid/only caring about tanks without anyone bothering to see if their points make sense.
DeletedUser16008
*sigh* bad Vic baad Vic If you feel im attacking you perse sorry if you have a thin skin WS, you made an analogy and an opinion I disagree with it.. as you were looking at it from a personal point of view id have thought youd expect the same.
You did say that tanks do the job others are too scared to do or should do themselves.
Not going to agree the lower HP have to hide at all let alone behind tanks all the time, if you believe thats how it should work then np thats up to you its not the way i see battles.
Each to their own, WS don't pay any mind im like it with everyone, if you think thats an attack you should see how i duel.
Im just a grizzy sarcastic grey bearded old git http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2U
You did say that tanks do the job others are too scared to do or should do themselves.
Not going to agree the lower HP have to hide at all let alone behind tanks all the time, if you believe thats how it should work then np thats up to you its not the way i see battles.
Each to their own, WS don't pay any mind im like it with everyone, if you think thats an attack you should see how i duel.
Im just a grizzy sarcastic grey bearded old git
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2UDeletedUser
This reminds me of my old dealings with Vic. I always thought Vic was an arrogant jerk, though jerk wasn't the word that went through my mind. Before anyone says "look who's talking!', omg stay on topic, this thread is about Vic...err...fort battles and why you don't fight.
@ANDROID: alliances aren't the problem. Even before official alliances, things still always gravitated towards two factions on any world, and I don't think Colorado is better than other worlds because they have more alliances. Hell, this sounds like a joke, but I'm half serious, maybe you shouldn't choose attack or defend, but have it randomly decided when you join.
@ANDROID: alliances aren't the problem. Even before official alliances, things still always gravitated towards two factions on any world, and I don't think Colorado is better than other worlds because they have more alliances. Hell, this sounds like a joke, but I'm half serious, maybe you shouldn't choose attack or defend, but have it randomly decided when you join.
DeletedUser
Makes me wonder, wouldn't it be awesome if Inno turned off the ^0.4 for say a month, and just let us all fight, and see what would happen? Just before the world mergers occur. Just for fun...
Hmm, an idea just brewed.
http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?p=639975#post639975
Hmm, an idea just brewed.
http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?p=639975#post639975
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DeletedUser
Why I dont FF
Poor graphics, erratic movements, too lengthy and just plain boring
Poor graphics, erratic movements, too lengthy and just plain boring
DeletedUser17649
"erratic movements"
What are you talking about? Up on the wall obviously means go around the corner and get shot.
What are you talking about? Up on the wall obviously means go around the corner and get shot.
DeletedUser
He may be talking about bumps and blocks. Or maybe he jut doesn't know how to move and he lets the AI do his thinking for him.
DeletedUser
Been some good discussion of fortfighting on here lately, and some good posts.
I was against any nerfing of HP but I've changed my mind, just against total nerfing of it. Maybe if the weighting attributed to the different ff skills could be rebalanced more along the old model --> 6 different skills so therefore more balanced (and democratic) since most everyone has some points in them, while dedicated fortfighters would still have all their points in those skills of course. Plus we could have more fun with a variety of possible effective builds.
And if they could revamp the battlemap that'd be cool, but won't be holding my breath waiting for that to happen
I was against any nerfing of HP but I've changed my mind, just against total nerfing of it. Maybe if the weighting attributed to the different ff skills could be rebalanced more along the old model --> 6 different skills so therefore more balanced (and democratic) since most everyone has some points in them, while dedicated fortfighters would still have all their points in those skills of course. Plus we could have more fun with a variety of possible effective builds.
And if they could revamp the battlemap that'd be cool, but won't be holding my breath waiting for that to happen
DeletedUser15641
Well i know some players that are sick of other players might leading fights to lose or might lead fights but are making others exhausted of so many attacks.
DeletedUser
The reason people don't fort fight is there are too many tanks who always win no matter what therefore it's impossible to take them down unless you are a really strong fort fighter.
DeletedUser
It is possible, but it requires a lot of time and people, mostly the level 120 with golden guns. Tanks usually have heavy amount of health points, highest I have seen was 4210 soldier with golden gun.