The Easter Showdown discussion

DeletedUser

It is possible to get every Easter Showdown item without premium - "not impossible, but difficult".

Ah yes, through the "easy-to-beat" free duels, right? I'm sure that by the time Easter is over, the balance of items that I get will be pretty equal to the value of the items from the guy who's dropped cash on at least 149 straight winning duels. It can't be that big of a game changer, can it?

If you made these items available in a quest, it'd either be easy enough that these items would no longer have any value or hard enough that premium players would then have a big advantage in the quest and you'd complain about that as well.

I think you know me better than that, futu. I never once complained about the Premium players having an advantage in the Golden Gun quests. Do you know why? Because it was still possible to obtain that item without Premium. It was just usually slower and required better management of skill points. There's a big difference with what's going on now. Many of the items that they are dumping into the environment are quite significantly more powerful than anything a non-Premium can realistically obtain (again, excepting a Market purchase). I don't know why it's so hard for everyone to admit that these items have a fairly significant impact on the balance between paid and non-paid players, and what effect this has on the overall game. When the morale of the non-paid players drops, the entire community suffers for the resultant reduction in population. And non-paid players DO play just as significant of a role in this game as paid players do. Where do you think future players come from? All the advertising that The West has on the TV?

Premium players pay for their advantage, it's their right to do so.

I've never once said they don't have the right to pay. Or that they shouldn't get some reward for that, either. Or that paying is even a bad thing. My problem isn't so much with the payers as it is with Inno for allowing the game to become so imbalanced with the overpowered items that they've made so easily available to anyone with the cash to get them. I'm not saying anything new. This has been a common theme on most of the communication methods since Inno shifted their focus from a F2P game to a pay-to-win game. You know there's no real winning of this game. And I know there's no real winning of this game. But that doesn't stop other people from thinking that they've won if they can essentially buy their way into stomping the majority of the other players out there.

Face it. The Tombalas cater to the players who are willing and/or able to drop a lot of cash. The Free Rolls were thrown in there to keep the majority of people from complaining. The problem is, some of us have seen what some of those items have done to the balance in the game. And no matter how much people affiliated with Inno tell us that it's really not that big of a deal, it just doesn't fly. It used to feel like Inno cared about ALL of it's players, paid and unpaid alike. It doesn't any more.
 
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DeletedUser

So let people who want to pay for the sheer joy of paying just out of their kind and generous natures and desire to support the game and let everyone else have it for free? Yeah, no flaws whatsoever in that reasoning.
 

DeletedUser

So let people who want to pay for the sheer joy of paying just out of their kind and generous natures and desire to support the game and let everyone else have it for free? Yeah, no flaws whatsoever in that reasoning.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that the paid options in this game have shifted. It's changed the dynamics of the game so that it's almost not worth it to be a non-paying player anymore. I don't think anyone can argue that paying players now have a huge advantage over non-paying players. Part of what always made this game so much fun, and what allowed so many people to join in, was that you didn't have to drop a single dollar to still be competitive in this game. The only difference was, Premium made the game easier. But everything was still within reach of the non-paying player. The balance really started shifting when they began allowing people to buy APs and SPs on some worlds. Again, if a person can't compete, where's the motivation to keep playing?
 

DeletedUser19518

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that the paid options in this game have shifted. It's changed the dynamics of the game so that it's almost not worth it to be a non-paying player anymore.

Indeed Tennismaster.
Now we (non-premiums), have to work 1000% harder and we will..
 

DeletedUser

It is possible to get every Easter Showdown item without premium - "not impossible, but difficult".

If you made these items available in a quest, it'd either be easy enough that these items would no longer have any value or hard enough that premium players would then have a big advantage in the quest and you'd complain about that as well.

Premium players pay for their advantage, it's their right to do so. You do not need these items. You cannot win this game. You survived without the items for years. Now that they exist, how does it affect your ability to play without them? Sure, players have them and you don't, but put it this way - the best reason for having these sets is for collection purposes.

I promised myself I will not post in this thread or on this issue again - but if someone in your position is repeating the same thing over again - I can't help myself :cool:

Nobody needs anything. If you give a pretty shinny set to premium players only that gives them +1 appearance and +1 shooting - no one would complain. If you give them sets that give +50% luck or higher income - no one will complain.

If you give premium players sets or items that give them advantages in FFing or in dueling and hurt the already fragile balance between premium and non-premium players - then you will hear players complaining. The point is not owning the items - it's fighting AGAINST these items. It's knowing you are going to lose when fighting against someone that BOUGHT his victory. It ruins the fun of playing this game.


As I wrote in a previous post - I am fully aware of the fact that I am playing a completely different game from players that buy an (almost) infinite amount of nuggets. I have no problems with it and truly hope they got, get and will continue to get what they deserve for that. I agree that it should make their lives easier and even give them a small edge on other players. No problem there at all.

I really don't know how Inno developers or project managers explain it to the management that the number of players dropped by 80-90% in about a year (please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the feeling I got). All I am offering you is my point of view as to why so many people choose to quit. Ignore it if you want ...

Derek - I know you asked people to stop posting here unless they have something productive to offer - so sorry I responded without any such solution. I can only repeat what I hinted at before and was suggested clearly in this thread by others - offer a quest that gives everyone the opportunity to get the same sets (exactly the same sets or equivalent). Make that quest hard - but doable for everyone - with or without nuggets. It will be easier with nuggets of course (re-specs) but still doable.
 

DeletedUser34194

I am a premium player and have bought thousands of nuggets and will probably continue to do so, although most of my nuggs go to waytime shortening and energy buffs ( I haven't slept in a month). However this is still a game for me and although I have bought the good spins,I don't have endless amounts of hard earned money to spend on a game of chance. During the Christmas tombola I was lucky enough to get Chings complete set on 1 big spin and several other items from different sets on regular spins. I now have almost every item from all 3 of those sets, including weapons, and so do lots of other players. We don't have these things because we are premium but because so many other premium players spent the nuggets to get these items and then had a GIANT surplus of items to sell on the market. Yes some of the prices are high, some are INSANELY high but In-game cash is the one thing available to every player of The West and there is no limit to how much you can get or how long it takes to get it. So stop complaining and encourage your local nugget munchers to spend spend spend in the hopes that you will find a complete set of whatever you are looking for at the local market.
 

DeletedUser

If you give premium players sets or items that give them advantages in FFing or in dueling and hurt the already fragile balance between premium and non-premium players - then you will hear players complaining. The point is not owning the items - it's fighting AGAINST these items. It's knowing you are going to lose when fighting against someone that BOUGHT his victory. It ruins the fun of playing this game

....
the number of players dropped by 80-90% in about a year...

At least someone else here understands what the problem is.
 

DeletedUser

...but In-game cash is the one thing available to every player of The West and there is no limit to how much you can get or how long it takes to get it.

Remember when you could queue up one single job for two hours and it counted for 4 separate chances at getting cash or drops? Some of those same jobs now only add up to a few minutes of work and only a single chance at a drop. Guess what that's done to those of us who do things like actually go to work. Instead of 16 chances while I'm at work, the most I can get are 4. Sure it's nice that some of those jobs can be completed in a few minutes now. But I can still only queue up 4 of them at a time without paying money. So I spend most of my work days (at least 5 or 6 a week) sitting idle. Which means I'm not earning any in-game money. And I'm not getting any in-game items to sell on the Market. That was one of the primary complaints when they switched to this job system.

And I don't know which Market you've been watching, but unless you're babysitting this game the entire day, it's pretty impossible to afford 200K-1M items. And that's the average cost of the decent items that are unobtainable by F2P players. That is what's killed this game. There's no balance any more.
 

DeletedUser35304

This is no longer a game for everyone...that's for sure.I buy premium..energie and high drop rate.I played 2 weeks whitout any premium and the diferance it's huge....i'm not saying big...i say HUGE.And i only spend 400 nuggets per month.If i would spend more then i think i would be king of this game :D.In my opinion if u don;t have any premium at all u might as well quit the game,cuz u have no chance in competing whit the rest of the field....the rest of the field meaning 200-250 ppl per world...those that buy nuggets.
The future it's not looking good...this tombola thigns are good...they keep the game alive and they were pretty smart whti the 6 h cool down....but then again...if u don;t get ur money from ur wallet and into Inno's bank account then u better play the real lottery.It's kinda the same:D.
 
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DeletedUser22685


If you give premium players sets or items that give them advantages in FFing or in dueling and hurt the already fragile balance between premium and non-premium players - then you will hear players complaining. The point is not owning the items - it's fighting AGAINST these items. It's knowing you are going to lose when fighting against someone that BOUGHT his victory. It ruins the fun of playing this game.

I maintain that these sets are not a guaranteed "win" for anyone who owns them.

Any fort bonus provided by these sets can be completely disregarded, due to the same being able to be said of the skills themselves. Fort fighting is a team game. If all the premium players were on one side, then we might see premium altering the outcome of a fort battle. But even so, this would be more due to the character bonus premium that has existed since the beginning than the Tombola sets. Individually, you will not notice a difference between shooting at a person with full Natty's and a person with regular fort clothes in a fort battle. The only individual advantage this set provides is a couple of hundred HP.

Duelling is a little different. Here, the skills (or two of them) actually do make a difference, and the bonuses provided by these new sets (Doc's in particular) do provide an advantage to players who own them. However, even this advantage is not an overpowered one. Allow me to compare the stats of an old fashioned duel defence setup, and full Doc's set:

Old fashioned set:
43 shooting
43 aim
78 dodging
48 tactics

Doc's set:
93 shooting
88 aim
68 dodging
67 tactics

As you can see, the biggest difference here is the shooting, in which Doc's set has an advantage of 50 over the regular set. 50 shooting is only useful against resistance duellers, who aren't a problem for shooters these days anyway. 19 tactics can also be ignored, since not many duellers these days have 48 OR 67 appearance. We're left with a comparison of the two main duel skills, aim and dodge. Doc's set has an advantage of 45 aim, but is 10 dodging behind the regular set I chose. Using the setup that I've posted, Doc's set only has an advantage of 35 aim/dodge SP (ignoring the fact that you can alter this regular set and bring your aim up a little). Combine that with the bonuses to the secondary skills of shooting and tactics and you have a set that is definitely worth paying premium for, but not one that will make you invincible.

I am not trying to say that Doc's set is not powerful. It is indeed the best duelling set in the game by quite a margin, but not the margin people are making out. I haven't even mentioned the fact that duelling between two dex/aim/dodge builds is based largely on luck/stance guessing, so any advantage you have over the opponent will still count for nil 50% of the time. This is nothing to do with these sets and is irrelevant to the premium vs. non-premium debate, but it does contribute massively to the fact that no one is unbeatable, whether they pay or not.

Now allow me to touch on the fact that these sets are obtainable to non-premium players via the market, and via free spins. I'm not sure what's going through people's heads right now when deciding on their Easter item market prices (perhaps they're basing it off the Christmas items' current values, which are not indicative of their values at the time the event was being run), but most of the Christmas set items were available for prices easily affordable by non-premium players. I really don't understand where the argument comes from that non-premium players can't obtain the items. I did a couple of 150 nugget spins at Christmas, but other than that I only did the daily free spins. I bought almost all my set items off the market. I am missing two of the shirts, one pair of pants and six of the nine weapons and guns, but I am happy with what I have and do not need any more, hence the reason it seems that players feel they need to own all these items and feel disadvantaged simply by the fact that they have not managed to do so, regardless of what bonuses they're actually missing out on. So far on the Easter event, I have heard from quite a lot of people who have won items up to the rare tier from free spins. This gives you a shot at all the decent items. I'm yet to hear of a horse or saddle dropping from a free spin, but they're really not that useful anyway. Cartwright's horse and saddle set is the only one worth trying for if you don't care for collections, and that provides a personal bonus rather than a PvP one and therefore doesn't disadvantage non-premium players against premium players who own it.

Finally, of course premium options have evolved over time, as has the game. As the game develops, requiring more staff, upgrading to better graphics etc, more money is needed to support it. The game could not have survived this long on the four original premiums alone. I see one of the main arguments here by the anti-premium advocates is that premium formerly provided an advantage to achieve things quicker, whereas now it provides items that cannot be obtained otherwise. I'll ignore the point I addressed earlier about these items being available to non-premium players and address a different point. How exactly are these items different from the advantages that were available in the early days? Think of these items themselves as "advantages", they help premium players short term but ultimately do not provide anything that is out of reach of non-premium players.

In case I have been unable to get my message across using words alone, I have provided an example of the typical duel between a premium and a non-premium player in the form of a comic strip:

1lPJ7YS.png
 
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DeletedUser22685

No, drawn from scratch. Can't you tell they're higher quality than the in-game graphics?
 

DeletedUser34315

This, my friends, is why futu should be in charge of innos graphic development team.
As to his points, he's right. Having slightly better gear does not make you an invincible dueler.
 

DeletedUser23445

Now allow me to touch on the fact that these sets are obtainable to non-premium players via the market.

True, I am a non-premium player and during the xmas tombola, managed to buy all clothing sets (except natty coat) plus chinga rifle+knife. Bought some missing stuff afterwards. Now, I got cart's horse and saddle from the market as well as cart's shoes from the duel.

So, non-premium players - don't lose hope. Offcourse, it is easier with the real cash to get these things, but it is still possible without real $$$.

Happy Easter!
 

DeletedUser

Futu - you are missing the main point.
You made two arguments - one is that the bonuses given by those sets\items are negligible or not necessarily deciding the outcome of a duel or ff and the other is that it is obtainable by non-premium players.

As for the first argument - you can keep claiming that the previous advantage that became obtainable by premium users is greater than what they are given now and you may be correct in that. Please go back to my previous posts and read them again. I am talking about the ever growing gap between the two types of players in this game. Sure - a great teamwork can win a ff - but a ff town full of premium players with 30% more HP on average, a few premium adventurers that can win any otherwise equal battle and some monstrous workers on their tower will make the outcome of the battle known in advance regardless of the teamwork on the other side. Oh, and of course I missed out on the crits that premium duelers get way too often. Now add to that superior gear and superior weapons and there is no point in even initiating that battle. It is the next thing Inno are going to sell to premium players to give them even greater superiority that I am wary of.

What happened to premium bonuses that made lives for premium players easier such as automation and higher income but didn't have any real affect on the rest of the players ? Why keep introducing more and more ways for nuggets-buying players to win not due to having superior toons but due to superior RL cash ? What's the point ? It's like sending an NBA team to play against a little league real toons :laugh:

Non of the small calculations you make can convince me that it's only a small advantage. Stop all premium features for a couple of weeks, stop using special items you got using nuggets and don't buy anything off the market for nuggets for that time - go dueling or ff and tell me what you think about it then.

As for your second point - Some non-premium players did manage to get all or most of the tombola items. Can you tell me how many such players are out there (hint - very few) ? How many of them won significant cash in the lottery or were given most of the items for cheap prices buy other (premium) players ? How many non premium players on their own without any help whatsoever managed to get all the christmas tombola items ? Very few if any.

I got a few of those items as well - the cheap ones. I could afford buying one of the more expensive items - but not more than that. I've been saving up since knowing there will be another event so now I might be able to get one full set of clothes - that is if I'm lucky and find the best bargains. Still - most non-premium players will once again be at an even greater disadvantage than before simply because they are not willing to pay. Go to Inno's main page and read what it says - Register now for FREE ! What they don't tell you is that you can register for free - but if you want to play with a fair chance to enjoy your game - you have to pay in RL cash.

Want to allow some players easier lives for cash ? Great. Don't ruin the game for others because you are greedy ! (not you personally but Inno lol)

Edit : I forgot to complement you on your graphic skills. Well done on that even if we disagree on how we view the game :)
 
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DeletedUser

I think they need to balance the ability to get the clothing/jacket items in the tombolas. I have 10 Cartwright hats (and probably sold a half-dozen more) and still can't find a Doc or Freeman jacket to save my life.

I'm debating opening a Cartwright Hat Emporium as a side business.
 

DeletedUser

W12 i am non premium as well now (besides DoI) but i did not partake in tombola spins nor in this showdown there. I have all set items from market, friends and 1-2 lucky spins.
 

DeletedUser19518

I think they need to balance the ability to get the clothing/jacket items in the tombolas. I have 10 Cartwright hats (and probably sold a half-dozen more) and still can't find a Doc or Freeman jacket to save my life.

I'm debating opening a Cartwright Hat Emporium as a side business.

I am sure, you are hitting Big Fred directly to his Cartwright Hat. Change spots. :laugh:
 

DeletedUser8627

Go to Inno's main page and read what it says - Register now for FREE ! What they don't tell you is that you can register for free - but if you want to play with a fair chance to enjoy your game - you have to pay in RL cash.
I'm sorry but I find this statement incorrect.
The West is a free game as well as all the other games InnoGames have produced and released to the public. The enjoyment of the game is not measured by how much nuggets you are willing to spend - this is certainly untrue. Forgive my ignorance, why are you still playing and participating in the forum discussions if you don't find enjoyment being here?

I still stand by the statement I made some time back. Your progression and achievements gained within the west come from your effort and time you have invested into your character. Sure nuggets help those who are impatient, but it's only temporary. If you want to have everything, gain everything and finish everything - Only your efforts and time will dictate how far you'll get.

Some of us old timers have been playing this game for three years longer than you have (Provided Stilla is your first account). You can imagine why they own, finished and did everything possible and yet we still sit with loads of stuff to work towards. With that said, I would like to add that the older players were fortunate because when features or items were released, they could work on it straight away. Don't hate the game, hate the player ;)
Comparing this to a newer player that hasn't been playing for very long, they are placed in a world where there are literally thousands of things to get through. Again, it's your efforts and time you'll need to invest if you're willing to.
 
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