has affirmative action gone too far?

DeletedUser

Giz,

I have been reading this thread with interest as it has unfolded. What has warmed my black heart is that there are so many white (my assumption) anti-racist's that have been prepared to air their views so eloquently. I have read your fairly inflammatory posts in the past and have let them slide. It is hard being black on these forum's when discussing race, as I do not want people stereotyping about 'chips on shoulders'.

Whilst I have already stated that I am fairly well-educated, my family are not rich - I am no Obama from a privileged background - my father was (and still is) a carpenter and my mother is a nurse. I was the first member of my family to go to university, although back in Jamaica, lots of my peers have also gone.

My life chances have been pretty numerous, but I have had to fight a number of battles based on racial lines. Sheet happens. Giz, I don't think that you are a racist - no pointy white hat for you, but I do think that you are prejudiced. You need to open your heart and your head to people that are different to you. You will genuinely find the experience enlightening and your world view change for the better.

Billy the Beautiful ;)

if you must know I have black friends
 

DeletedUser

I'm not saying it should be ignored. But hiding it in the cloak of "politically correct" speech doesn't solve the issue.
Nowhere did I say that it did. It does, however, get people thinking about the ways in which they speak and challenges their base assumptions. In that respect, even though it can be taken to a silly extreme, I think it is a good thing.

Education and tolerance do. As does teaching by example.
Education and tolerance as long as those who are being educated and becoming tolerant don't have to change, themselves? Even a small thing like the term which they use to call something?

White people may not be subjected to the same kind of institutional prejudice that other groups are BUT you'd be horribly misguided if you thought that there weren't bigots of every race religion and creed in this world.
Again, no where did I say any such thing.
 

DeletedUser

That doesn't automatically make you not a racist. From your posts in various portions of this forum you have some extremely racially based prejudices, whether you want to accept that or not.
 

DeletedUser

I think if people take offense to a word that has meaning they shouldn't change the word, the word isn't the problem at all and making another word for it will just push the problem aside.

But before you go any further, why don't we start using the politically correct term for "white people".

Pigmentationally challenged?
Melanin poor?
 

DeletedUser

It is not the name calling (the political correctness) that is the problem. That is like looking at the paint job on a car and saying it's a crappy car.

It is the motivation behind such use of words, the generalizations, the labeling, the hate, fear, distrust. I'm finding myself, at least at this moment, not all that interested in participating. This thread is bouncing all over the place, with everyone trying to swing at a variety of poorly lobbed balls of hate/fear.

This thread began with the post about test that was thrown away because all the courts in the land agreed it was an unfair test. From there, standing on top of that broken pedestal, Gizmo argued against affirmative action. This discussion continued when Gizmo demonstrated incorrect knowledge on gangs and their racial makeup. A great ball of argument was lost there when the reports provided clearly indicated there were plenty of caucasions (a majority, in some regions) involved in gangs, and this could have well been followed up by comparing economic disparities within the various regions, as well as the racial percentages.

Instead, that ball was dropped, and the argument took a turn for the worse. Now it was black against white, where arguments were concocted, claiming caucasians are being denied opportunities because of affirmative action. There is not one shred of evidence to support this claim, and yet that is the argument I hear so many times by caucasions, most often racists, when they discuss affirmative action.

The initial article served only one purpose, and that was to feed the false claim now being argued by the OP. Even after the article was debunked, the claim continues, further demonstrating how the goal of this argument doesn't require supporting evidence. As such, it is, in no uncertain terms, a belief. And now that we have determined Gizmo is spouting his belief, we can address the belief.

Gizmo, Racism, prejudism, and favoritism still very much exists. Jews were (and still are in many places) disliked because they favor each other, helping each other over helping someone else. This is in the make-up of early tribal survival, and the Judean religion is very much a tribal religion.

Now, i bring this up because racist caucasians behave in very much the same way, in that they will hire a white man over a latino, asian, indian, or black. As well, a racist latino would hire a latino over other races, and so on. The problem, however, is not as much in the tribal behavior, as it is in the dominating race oppressing the other races.

In the U.S., and other countries, there is a problem whereby the dominant race holds all the cards. They run almost all the major corporations, hold almost all the high ranking positions, dictate most of the economic opportunities, and secure most of the higher education seats. In the U.S., the dominant race is caucasian. In the U.S., it is the caucasian that is the tribal bully, the king of the mountain, the one who dictates to all the other races just how things are going to work.

Affirmative Action is a drop in the bucket in the vast ocean of legal seaweed for the dominant race. When it comes to such things, in the vast majority of cases, the dominant race wins out, despite the laws in place.

No, Gizmo, Affirmative Action is not very effective in the legal system. Its power lies elsewhere, in the minds of the people. Martin Luther King demonstrated that it is not the power that dictates, but the people, and in as much it is the people that need to bring change to the world, to change the laws, change the wills, and eventually change the mindsets of those too afraid.

There are a thousand fields of opportunity and a hundred hands to till them. The fear is unwarranted, because there is plenty of opportunity for everyone. One is not denied for lack of opportunity, one is denied for fear. And as such, with all the issues presented, all the arguments sounded, the voices are still buffered by the failure to listen, for fear dictates the hand, which holds the fields in a coveting embrace.

It is racism, prejudism, fear that is at the core of the problem here. Fear to share, and fear that it will not be shared. Anger is a byproduct of fear; hatred, a byproduct of anger. The other races will not take away your rights, they will not take away your opportunities, they will not take away your privileges. They're too busy trying to obtain the rights, opportunities, and privileges they are so vehemenently denied.
 

DeletedUser

ok maybe im just sick of white guilt being thown around all the time
 

DeletedUser8950

Political correctness is like trying to pick a turd up by the clean end. However hard you try, you'll always to some extent be un pc...
And yeah hellstromm. When I was at school, the coolest insult was to call someone jewish (or gay).

Anger is a byproduct of fear; hatred, a byproduct of anger
and anger leads to the dark side!:eek:hmy:

Sorry...:laugh:

My silly sense of humour aside, gizmo read hellstromm's post, it's very very relevant to you.
 

nashy19

Nashy (as himself)
Political correctness is like trying to pick a turd up by the clean end. However hard you try, you'll always to some extent be un pc...
And yeah hellstromm. When I was at school, the coolest insult was to call someone jewish (or gay).

If I had a Jewish friend I wouldn't be able to resist the urge to say "I'm sorry for all the times I've called you names, I don't really think your a Jew".
 

DeletedUser8950

If I had a Jewish friend I wouldn't be able to resist the urge to say "I'm sorry for all the times I've called you names, I don't really think your a Jew".
Rofl. You'd just have to hope they didn't take it the wrong way haha
 

DeletedUser

I am a white woman and mother of 3 young girls (ages 11, and 8 year old twins). We live in rural Ohio where I can say that racism and prejudice run rampant (at least in my experience). Interracial dating does happen in my town, usually by high school students and young adults. I see this as a positive step forward in that the younger generation is more open minded. Unfortunately there are those that are completely close minded.

I tell you all of this because as a mother I struggle to raise my children in the way I see fit. There are members of my own family who will not hesitate to voice their hateful opinions in front of my daughters. My oldest seems to realize that we are all just people and I have never heard her refer to any one of a different race in any way that could be considered racist or discriminatory. One of my 8 year olds is a different story. It seems she has picked up on some of my family's racist talk and I have heard her say some truly horrible things. I try to sit down with her and explain why what she said is wrong. She seems to understand but then a couple months later something else will pop out.

I do believe political correctness has gone too far. I don't see a problem with saying someone is white or someone is black. I would find it silly for someone to call me an Italian-American as I have never been to Italy although my ancestors are from there. I respect that African-American is the accepted term now but in private I will say black when a description of a person is necessary. Political correctness is all about saying the same thing but in a dumbed down nicer way.

George Carlin had a great skit about political correctness and the dumbing down of words. Sadly in this day and age I feel the only noteworthy and honest race relations dialogue is taking place in comedy. In the guise of comedy people of all races are free to say what they are really thinking. I'm not talking about hacks like Andrew Dice Clay (if you could even consider him a comedian anymore) but of those comedians like Lewis Black, George Carlin (miss that man) and others who point out the idiocy of politcal correctness. This language war is ridiculous and is not the root of the problem.

Racism and discrimination has been around since one person noticed someone else was different from them. It doesn't make either one of them superior. If anything, technology (almost exclusively war technology) has been the deciding factor on who is superior. The nation/race/tribe/religion with the best weapons can go whomp on the nation/race/tribe/religion with the inferior weapons and then go about erasing their history, language, religion and anything else they could use to base an identity and community on in order for the 'winner' to keep control. This has been repeated in history time and time again.

We will never be free of racism and discrimination. I do hope one day we will have more tolerance in the world. The more an act is condoned the more it flourishes. The more an act is abhorred the less it is likely to be repeated. Notice I said 'acts'. You can not police a persons thoughts. You can police their actions. That is what affirmative action is about.
 

DeletedUser

Nashy, if you had a friend, you wouldn't be able to resist the urge to say something absolutely and utterly inane, which, of course, would result in your not having a friend yet again. *smirk*
 

DeletedUser8950

I am a white woman and mother of 3 young girls (ages 11, and 8 year old twins). We live in rural Ohio where I can say that racism and prejudice run rampant (at least in my experience). Interracial dating does happen in my town, usually by high school students and young adults. I see this as a positive step forward in that the younger generation is more open minded. Unfortunately there are those that are completely close minded.

I tell you all of this because as a mother I struggle to raise my children in the way I see fit. There are members of my own family who will not hesitate to voice their hateful opinions in front of my daughters. My oldest seems to realize that we are all just people and I have never heard her refer to any one of a different race in any way that could be considered racist or discriminatory. One of my 8 year olds is a different story. It seems she has picked up on some of my family's racist talk and I have heard her say some truly horrible things. I try to sit down with her and explain why what she said is wrong. She seems to understand but then a couple months later something else will pop out.

I do believe political correctness has gone too far. I don't see a problem with saying someone is white or someone is black. I would find it silly for someone to call me an Italian-American as I have never been to Italy although my ancestors are from there. I respect that African-American is the accepted term now but in private I will say black when a description of a person is necessary. Political correctness is all about saying the same thing but in a dumbed down nicer way.

George Carlin had a great skit about political correctness and the dumbing down of words. Sadly in this day and age I feel the only noteworthy and honest race relations dialogue is taking place in comedy. In the guise of comedy people of all races are free to say what they are really thinking. I'm not talking about hacks like Andrew Dice Clay (if you could even consider him a comedian anymore) but of those comedians like Lewis Black, George Carlin (miss that man) and others who point out the idiocy of politcal correctness. This language war is ridiculous and is not the root of the problem.

Racism and discrimination has been around since one person noticed someone else was different from them. It doesn't make either one of them superior. If anything, technology (almost exclusively war technology) has been the deciding factor on who is superior. The nation/race/tribe/religion with the best weapons can go whomp on the nation/race/tribe/religion with the inferior weapons and then go about erasing their history, language, religion and anything else they could use to base an identity and community on in order for the 'winner' to keep control. This has been repeated in history time and time again.

We will never be free of racism and discrimination. I do hope one day we will have more tolerance in the world. The more an act is condoned the more it flourishes. The more an act is abhorred the less it is likely to be repeated. Notice I said 'acts'. You can not police a persons thoughts. You can police their actions. That is what affirmative action is about.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Denisero again."
 

DeletedUser8950

Nashy, if you had a friend, you wouldn't be able to resist the urge to say something absolutely and utterly inane, which, of course, would result in your not having a friend yet again. *smirk*
ding ding ding, start of round 1!
 
Top