Duelling Formula Feedback Thread

mazort

Not even sure why I'm still playing. Been inactive for past half a year visited my dead world to stir around, perhaps curious about new duelling. Quite frankly now is nothing more but stance guessing. Nearly all hits taken has been located on exposed side. My primary stats are well above 100, and 80 of my opponents were not random adventurers. There is not much left for tactical planning nor skills development. In essence You killed a killing.
The West used to be my only mmorpg game played till Dec last year. Heads up, not anymore :laugh: Anyway that was a penny of my thoughts.
I am not sure you are right. there are duels which I tried to not dodge at all and the best duelers do not land a hit at all. it is not only stance. there is something we don't understand on the new system. that's all.
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
There is a woman on the beta who is a pure dodger (all in mobility and dodging).
She has 424 dodging points and no one can land a hit on her even the best duelers on the beta world.
Sorry it dosnt work like that, dodge is a skill with a random factor so you dodge will be variable in a duel ... ie from a min number to the max... ie say 50 - 350 if your dodge is that high... vs their aim and a few other factors thrown in.

I have very high dodge and can go either not getting hit in say 3 duels in a row on the same guy the 4th time ill get hit 3 times or more... due to stance ... and im talking about good duelers... same with standing all red youll dodge some depending on the random number that comes up on your dodge.
 

3-Finger Jack

I think if anything the new update has reinforced the resistance dueler as the easiest and most formidable build.

With the new system based on higher emphasis on dodge/aim and luck of correct stance, most pure duelers are realizing that having too much vigor or shooting kills their chances of winning most duels against their counterparts. A dueler with 50 shooting, 75 aim and 75 dodge will beat a dueler with 100 shooting, 50 dodge and 50 aim nine times out of ten. So I am seeing reductions of the amount of shooting and vigor in almost all the serious duelers by as much as 50%. Certainly over 20% in most cases.

Enter the bruised and battered resistance dueller which has taken a hit in every recent update. Now they have reduced the value of toughness against shooting from 50% to 25%. Same for reflex against vigor. So a balanced resistance dueler with 100 toughness and 100 reflex has seen his overall resistance against all duelers drop from 150 to 125. This is only an 18% drop compared to a much higher drop of vigor or shooting that opponents are forced to self-inflict to remain competitive against each other.

The added strength of guessing the right stance also aids the now stronger resistance dueler. He doesn't care at all about getting hit, so no dodging needed in either SP or stance, and his small amount of aim against much larger dodges still allow him to make hits. I have checked against NPC, and aims of 50 against dodge of 150 always result in one or two hits due to the luck of the stance. and one or two hits is all a resistance dueler needs to win.

Most people flocked away from resistance dueling after the new update thinking it was a dead art. But when they start realizing that it is better than ever it will come back with a vengeance.

I think the aim/dodge/stance factor needs to be adjusted so it is not so easy for a person to hit some with 3 times more dodge than he has aim. If aim and dodge are to include luck factor, then add a luck factor into resistance also.
 

-Neo-

Banned
I think if anything the new update has reinforced the resistance dueler as the easiest and most formidable build.

With the new system based on higher emphasis on dodge/aim and luck of correct stance, most pure duelers are realizing that having too much vigor or shooting kills their chances of winning most duels against their counterparts. A dueler with 50 shooting, 75 aim and 75 dodge will beat a dueler with 100 shooting, 50 dodge and 50 aim nine times out of ten. So I am seeing reductions of the amount of shooting and vigor in almost all the serious duelers by as much as 50%. Certainly over 20% in most cases.

Enter the bruised and battered resistance dueller which has taken a hit in every recent update. Now they have reduced the value of toughness against shooting from 50% to 25%. Same for reflex against vigor. So a balanced resistance dueler with 100 toughness and 100 reflex has seen his overall resistance against all duelers drop from 150 to 125. This is only an 18% drop compared to a much higher drop of vigor or shooting that opponents are forced to self-inflict to remain competitive against each other.

The added strength of guessing the right stance also aids the now stronger resistance dueler. He doesn't care at all about getting hit, so no dodging needed in either SP or stance, and his small amount of aim against much larger dodges still allow him to make hits. I have checked against NPC, and aims of 50 against dodge of 150 always result in one or two hits due to the luck of the stance. and one or two hits is all a resistance dueler needs to win.

Most people flocked away from resistance dueling after the new update thinking it was a dead art. But when they start realizing that it is better than ever it will come back with a vengeance.

I think the aim/dodge/stance factor needs to be adjusted so it is not so easy for a person to hit some with 3 times more dodge than he has aim. If aim and dodge are to include luck factor, then add a luck factor into resistance also.
this reinforces the fact that ranged dueling with free sps in shoot is the best build.
again...
 

3-Finger Jack

this reinforces the fact that ranged dueling with free sps in shoot is the best build.
again...
Maybe, against most other builds. But in order for a ranged dueler with free sps in shoot to beat a pure resistance dueler, he needs to throw a lot more of his extra SP into shoot, apart from his freebies. This will make him weak against all other ranged duelers with free SP in shoot who choose to put all their extra SP into aim and dodge instead of more shoot.

How about changing the formula for damage? Right now a person with 10 shoot will cause as much damage as a person with 300 shoot, assuming the resistance is zero. Why shouldn't a player with more shooting be able to do more damage per hit? Maybe instead of damage being a function of % of vigor/shoot vs. resistance (with a limit of 50% more for maximum effect) , maybe it could be worked as a function of total SP difference between vigor/shoot and resistance?
 
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dgorsk

Well-Known Member
even if the resistance is 0, a person with 300 shooting will do a hell of alot more damage then a person with 10 shooting. Also who cares how hard you hit a resist for when they cant hit you back, resist still losses.
 

3-Finger Jack

even if the resistance is 0, a person with 300 shooting will do a hell of alot more damage then a person with 10 shooting. Also who cares how hard you hit a resist for when they cant hit you back, resist still losses.
Not true. If you have 50% more shoot or vigor than your opponent has resist, you will do 200% of weapon damage. So with 10 shooting against 0 resistance, you will still do 200% damage, the same as if you had 300.
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
can I just say I can get over 250 shooting with my lvl 120 ranged without using one sp on shooting.... that means a resist will need to have at least 200 on both as before... now guess where my sp are and that resist wont hit me 9 out of 10 duels.

Ive been purposely attacking resist on a couple of worlds just to see and they dont hit hardly ever... oh and ive a reflex mobility toon who upsets guns but again he has a problem hitting good dodgers once.

Have to disagree 3FJ resist are a piece of cake more than they ever were as far as im concerned.
 

-Neo-

Banned
that^
250 shoot without using 1 single sp in shoot!

not only has resist been scrapped, melee dodge and charisma have as well.

shame
:(
 

DraGonFlyBG

Well-Known Member
There is a woman on the beta who is a pure dodger (all in mobility and dodging).
She has 424 dodging points and no one can land a hit on her even the best duelers on the beta world.
You are wrong.

I have 380 dodge on w7.Most of the duels they cant hit me or they hit me once.But still sometimes people hit me for 3-4 times.Yeah, they have much more sp and ap than me, but still i am sure that, they have 260-280 aim max, so i still have 100-120 dodge more, than their aim.Just i have bigger chance to be picked better number for my dodge.


About the resistance.
Everyone is saying that now the resistance is crap.
NO!!

Now there is new resistance and its called - DODGE/AIM or AIM/DODGE.

Before it was reflex and toughness, and you could counter it with loads of shooting and vigor and in rare cases with dodge.

Now the new resistance is - higher dodge with good enough aim or higher aim with good dodge.

The only difference is , that now much more people can beat the new resistance build.Because not so many players were going for loads of shooting and vigor before, when now most of the players have pretty good aim and dodge.
 
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Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
Spot on DF,

Which leads me all the way back to the beginning, before this update was introduced I warned what would happen and the only duel build worth having.http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?p=602141#post602141 I hate being right about this but it was obvious how it would play out ..

Inno have killed dueling variation, there may be all kinds of builds still but NONE are as effective as Aim/Dodge and of that there is a clear dominant build of the pure Dex shooter combined with Aim/Dodge .... that toon will own all others 90% of the time and only fall short by sheer bad luck vs others of the same style of build.... A monkey could have seen it coming it was so obvious
 
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Derek1982

Well-Known Member


Well said Vic, I will not say there was nothing wrong with dueling before they started screwing with appearance/tactics/reflex/toughness but it sure as hell was not as boring as it is today with the one build beats all scenario playing out.
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
to whoever gave me this :)

feedback... Duelling Formula... 14.12.11 11:46 You bought 100 APs? game-killer

Naa ive never bought a point in my life its also not on a point buying world.... that 250 shooting is just with kit and all AP from quests poss on dex ;)
 

Baron Dirk

I gotta go with Victor on this one! I did the respec with quite a few of my characters. I extreme respecced some of them. Switched them to super high reflex, toughness or tactics. One I did with points divided evenly between aim/dodge/shoot. Guess which one wins the most duels?

Well it's costing me a lot of money and time to move all those wasted points over to aim/dodge/shoot! Funny thing is when I first started playing several years ago I use to do my builds with a high aim/dodge and used to get my butt kicked A LOT. Now when I have crafted different builds for different worlds we go to a aim/dodge/coin flip duel system.
 

futurama1001

Well-Known Member
Well I'm tired of playing with a substandard melee build on Arizona, especially after dropping from 15th to 19th in the duel rankings since the new update, so I've finally planned a respec to ranged to try to pick it up a bit on a level playing field with the others. I won't give away my exact build, but after completing all AP and SP quests, getting a GG (which I never bothered with before) and respeccing to ranged, I will gain almost 100 aim and dodging, plus 7 shooting on my current vigor which is not even a focal point. All I lose is 20 appearance (which I recently took all points out of anyway and I seem to be going better since then) and 500 HP as an adventurer. All the added dodging probably more than makes up for that 500 HP under the current system anyway.

I don't know about you, but I think it's an extreme imbalance for that to even be possible. If I was a soldier I'd have more than enough HP which is currently the only minor downside to being a ranged dueller. Of course, this imbalance always existed. Only now with aim's increased importance and the ruination of resistance duelling, I'm afraid to say melee no longer holds its own.
 

Morgan Caine

Well-Known Member
My final question about this topic is - is it worth it? To make the killer build? Even for those of us who like to duel all the time we can, we want to do high XP jobs while under 48ko. And as it seems, anyone can beat the killer build now if they know the stances. So my question is - is it worth it to make the killer build if it's only subliminally better than any other build and only works when it's associated with a bit of luck to go with it?
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
My final question about this topic is - is it worth it? To make the killer build? Even for those of us who like to duel all the time we can, we want to do high XP jobs while under 48ko. And as it seems, anyone can beat the killer build now if they know the stances. So my question is - is it worth it to make the killer build if it's only subliminally better than any other build and only works when it's associated with a bit of luck to go with it?

Good question Morgan.

It all depends on what you like to do... example is ive always been a low motive dueler. I do forts to get the xp i need to level ...so i avoid no one but keep as many targets in my game as possible for variety. so ... as a pure dueler with no other real interest and lvl 120 its no hardship for me even under ko all i do is craft dueling and fort buffs all of which can be done with the lp i have ..... all duels are now luck based to a degree but i still win 90% so its not mostly luck based ... people have a pattern they like to set stance at, youd be surprised how predictable most are.

Its also great for forts so thats a bonus too and the build allows you some great jobs both for xp and cash... its pretty good on all levels considering if your high lvl or just dont care about anything but dueling.

So for me the killer build is just that ... the killer build ... there is no other worth considering if you duel as much as I or some of us do and its substantially better not subliminally imho.
 
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Jimmy Lips

i was doing great as a resistance dueler on world 6, collecting huge bounties and beating up the scoundrels. After the patch I got knocked out regularly, so I removed all 'toughness', and put it in reflex... hoping that I'd still be able to duel against ranged opponents. Not the case, still haven't won a single duel. 1/3 aim, 2/3 reflex... all strength... and getting knocked out left and right. Now I'm stuck with a dueling level of 160 and lvl 80, can't play any of the GM battles/weekend specials/scoundrels, and workers i used to pick on are now beating me up left and right. Even after spending serious nuggets to respec to a decent aim/dodge build, i can't seem to compete with anybody because my dueling level is jacked up too high.