Duelling Formula Feedback Thread

Diggo11

InnoGames
Quite simply: we're interested to know how you find the new formula. (Well, at least after you've tried it.) The purpose of the new formula is to restore balance between traditional and resistance builds, however with a limited testing scope on the beta we cannot be sure how successful the changes will be without your feedback. Please let us know if you find the changes were minimal, excessive or neither; all constructive feedback will be welcome, developer whines will be removed. Keep in mind you'll need to be adventurous in testing these changes - your old builds will probably not be as effective without tweaking, this is only to be expected and not a reason to "bash" the system!
 

JoxerTM

To test the system thoroughly I suggest a temporary lift of push duels rule on one (dead) world. Players on such world could get some good feedback in a week or so as would be able to share their builds and duel (stance) settings.
Must add that I won't be bashing new forumulas as although they're not publically known, info on what's changed is available (nerfed resistance, * changed into + for aiming, aim and dodge becoming the most important skills). If something is there to be bashed in the system that's two things - presence of a factor called duel motivation and inability to get an item if duel is won, but in here that's offtopic so I'll do it elsewhere. ;)
 
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Darth Maul 2

I´d say it´s a rather exessive change. I´ve dueled a couple of high level duelers in arizona and I have dexterity build. I´ve hit a lot more often than I did before the update ( I hit almost all the shoulder shots which are hard to hit). Also with my melee dodge dueler in w12 I tried beating a resistance dueler in w12 and I failed. And then I tried to do a duel against a level 100+ ranged dueler with aim/dodge and tactic build and he owned me, lol. I think I should´ve beat him before the update with the old duel system. I´d like to see an increased efectivness of shooting and vigor against resistances. And also a little decreased efectivness of aim and dodge, tough not much. I will do some more testing against high level duelers and equal level duelers and send results.

I like the new duel system, but if it decreases melee duelers efectivness it need more balance aka decrease aim and dodge efectivness.
 

tennismaster07

...but if it decreases melee duelers efectivness it need more balance aka decrease aim and dodge efectivness.
100% agree. I did a couple of duels this morning against people I've dueled before. I barely won the first one and ko'd myself on the second one. The troubling aspect is that I was hit hard EVERY round. I'm primarily a vigor/appearance melee dueler. I In roughly 900 duels, I have NEVER been hit every round. Under the old system, I would hardly consider myself overpowered. There were people I knew I could beat, and people I knew could beat me. And plenty in between. It feels like Appearance has been nerfed to the point of irrelevance, but I'll try a little more dueling after my self-inflicted rest period is over. But if I don't get any better results, I'll likely hang up my sword and scabbard and become a fort fighter or quester. I have no urge to join the cookie-cutter dueling bandwagon that I'm sure we're about to see. If there's no more skill involved in dueling, then there's not much point to it.
 

Adelei Niska

IMO, there are three skills that should be the most important when it comes to dueling -- Aim, Dodge and Hit Points. These are the only skills that no one can see the rankings of, and these are the only skills that give no points towards jobs. I like the update. And I like the balance that it brings.
 

TJ Tuttle

Well-Known Member
I was only able to do 10 duels today, trying to target resist players I had previously dueled.

I moved 15 AP's from Charisma to Dex right before 1.33 went into effect, other wise I had made no other changes.

Previously against some of the players I was only doing minimal damage due to their builds. With others I had to hit 2 to 1 to win.

Today I was doing much better damage against players who previously I was doing only minimal damage against. Those whom I previously had to hit 2 to 1 against I could win against just by out hitting.

Resist players IMO are still going to be competitive, they are just going to have to put some more points into aim and put some into dodge for a change. They are not going to be able just to stand their like a cyclops and eat damage and hit you a couple of times and still win.

Very well balanced change from what I have seen so far.
 

Sumdumass

Well-Known Member
After attempting to figure out what to change in my skills to adapt to the new system (yes, my higher then most aim + melee resistance build is completely hosed now), I cannot seem to figure out how a pure dueler in melee can really compete with a pure shooter. Aim and shooting will get the full benefit of attributes being applied to dexterity while a melee dueler might get a health bonus, is only getting 70% or so of the benefit of attributes in strength because the sister skill toughness is hosed.

It's simply more efficient to maximize the benefit of the placement of attributes in dexterity now and very little gear is set up to maximize the new necessity to rely on dodge now. A well skilled shooter with the best possible gear can have the effect of 30 or more skill points in an advantage to melee now from the placement of attribute points alone, and twice as much or more because of the reliance on other skills like dodge now. Two players at the same level with similar damage capable weapons and no other gear, will not be equal on the amount of effectiveness of the skills and the distribution required now for melee. It seems almost futile to try melee anymore when you consider the lack of competent gear combination offering limited additional skills compared to a ranged fighter. All you will do is lose more ofter (because of more health) or have to limit your duels to people doing jobs and quests and the casual dueler who wants to continuously do something other then dueling.

And yes, my philosophy was to use gear to get the maximum increase in targeted skill points possible and move the actual skills to suit my needs. A level 55 player doing the quests should have near 60-61 attributes and 187 or so skill points plus an effective 178 or more extra skill points with gear as melee (under the old system). If someone can find gear that comes close while adding dodge to the gear requirement and subtracting toughness and reflex and not using hard to obtain named items, I would be really interested to hear it. Best I can see is using a golden buffalo or bullet instead of mex bandanna, a fancy felt hat, and yellow Indian pants instead of fancy linen and that seems to add up to only about 111 useful extra targeted skill points. Granted, that's not counting what will be added to reflex and toughness, but that's not worth much now.
 

Bad N3ws

I was only able to do 10 duels today, trying to target resist players I had previously dueled.

I moved 15 AP's from Charisma to Dex right before 1.33 went into effect, other wise I had made no other changes.

Previously against some of the players I was only doing minimal damage due to their builds. With others I had to hit 2 to 1 to win.

Today I was doing much better damage against players who previously I was doing only minimal damage against. Those whom I previously had to hit 2 to 1 against I could win against just by out hitting.

Resist players IMO are still going to be competitive, they are just going to have to put some more points into aim and put some into dodge for a change. They are not going to be able just to stand their like a cyclops and eat damage and hit you a couple of times and still win.

Very well balanced change from what I have seen so far.
That you moved 15 AP to dex right before the update totally ruin your test.

For example my resist dueler got hit by a range 6 times and i took 651 dmg, that time i had yellow leg guards on me. I know he was going to hit me again so i was watching and when he show up next to me i change to brown linen pants, they have 20 reflex bonus, like removing 20 shooting for him, that time he hit me 8 times but did only 410 dmg.

With my other range dueler there is a resist guy that i have duel a lot, without jam i do around 800 dmg on him and with jam i avg 1050, jam = adding 15 AP

So you need to move back your 15 dex to charisma to be able to see any different in this update, 15 AP in dex is A lot.

But yes melee will still be able to compete, up to around lvl 55 because that is how much a range dueler want to have in HP after that you will lose 1 SP against range every time you gain a lvl.
 

Diggo11

InnoGames
That you moved 15 AP to dex right before the update totally ruin your test.

For example my resist dueler got hit by a range 6 times and i took 651 dmg, that time i had yellow leg guards on me. I know he was going to hit me again so i was watching and when he show up next to me i change to brown linen pants, they have 20 reflex bonus, like removing 20 shooting for him, that time he hit me 8 times but did only 410 dmg.

With my other range dueler there is a resist guy that i have duel a lot, without jam i do around 800 dmg on him and with jam i avg 1050, jam = adding 15 AP

So you need to move back your 15 dex to charisma to be able to see any different in this update, 15 AP in dex is A lot.
Why would you? Whilst 15AP is of course alot, it the grand scheme of things it isn't a build overhaul but a tweak to adapt to the new system. No point in evaluating the old builds "perfected" to an outdated formula across two years, make changes if you're able and see how the new "optimum" resistance, charisma and shooting builds fare :)
 

TJ Tuttle

Well-Known Member
That you moved 15 AP to dex right before the update totally ruin your test.

For example my resist dueler got hit by a range 6 times and i took 651 dmg, that time i had yellow leg guards on me. I know he was going to hit me again so i was watching and when he show up next to me i change to brown linen pants, they have 20 reflex bonus, like removing 20 shooting for him, that time he hit me 8 times but did only 410 dmg.

With my other range dueler there is a resist guy that i have duel a lot, without jam i do around 800 dmg on him and with jam i avg 1050, jam = adding 15 AP

So you need to move back your 15 dex to charisma to be able to see any different in this update, 15 AP in dex is A lot.

But yes melee will still be able to compete, up to around lvl 55 because that is how much a range dueler want to have in HP after that you will lose 1 SP against range every time you gain a lvl.
I disagree. 15 AP is not a lot. For all practical purposes it is a minor change.

One resist player pre change I averaged 53 points of damage on using the Allens. Post change I am averaging 117. This is without jam and with us both wearing the same equip as previously and far exceeds any benefit gained from moving 15 AP.

As far as your comment about level 55 and range duelers that is erroneous. There is no flat rule on what level ranged duelers place sp into health and then no longer do so. I have exactly 8 sp in HP and am level 74. I have not placed any sp there probable since level 10. So loosing 1 sp per level over 55 just does not hold up, that varies to much from build to build.

The damage you state you are taking getting hit 6 times is proof itself that the resist build is still a viable build. If you were a shooter getting hit 6 times you would be taking double that damage.

After attempting to figure out what to change in my skills to adapt to the new system (yes, my higher then most aim + melee resistance build is completely hosed now), I cannot seem to figure out how a pure dueler in melee can really compete with a pure shooter. Aim and shooting will get the full benefit of attributes being applied to dexterity while a melee dueler might get a health bonus, is only getting 70% or so of the benefit of attributes in strength because the sister skill toughness is hosed.

It's simply more efficient to maximize the benefit of the placement of attributes in dexterity now and very little gear is set up to maximize the new necessity to rely on dodge now. A well skilled shooter with the best possible gear can have the effect of 30 or more skill points in an advantage to melee now from the placement of attribute points alone, and twice as much or more because of the reliance on other skills like dodge now. Two players at the same level with similar damage capable weapons and no other gear, will not be equal on the amount of effectiveness of the skills and the distribution required now for melee. It seems almost futile to try melee anymore when you consider the lack of competent gear combination offering limited additional skills compared to a ranged fighter. All you will do is lose more ofter (because of more health) or have to limit your duels to people doing jobs and quests and the casual dueler who wants to continuously do something other then dueling.

And yes, my philosophy was to use gear to get the maximum increase in targeted skill points possible and move the actual skills to suit my needs. A level 55 player doing the quests should have near 60-61 attributes and 187 or so skill points plus an effective 178 or more extra skill points with gear as melee (under the old system). If someone can find gear that comes close while adding dodge to the gear requirement and subtracting toughness and reflex and not using hard to obtain named items, I would be really interested to hear it. Best I can see is using a golden buffalo or bullet instead of mex bandanna, a fancy felt hat, and yellow Indian pants instead of fancy linen and that seems to add up to only about 111 useful extra targeted skill points. Granted, that's not counting what will be added to reflex and toughness, but that's not worth much now.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here.

But it sounds to me like in the past you have been putting sp's in other places besides resist dueling skills and using them for jobs, etc, and relying on equipment to provide sps for dueling skills.

And now with the change to be a top dueler and compete at the same level you are going to have to use not only top equipment but actually use your sps for dueling instead of other things.

Whats wrong with that? I am a shooter. All of my sps go to dueling skills and I use the best equipment I can. Why should resist have to be any different than that.

With this change the days of resist ruling the range using part of their sps for dueling, relying on equip and an Hernando's are over as it should be.

Want to be a top dueler competitive dueler your going to have to do like top shooters have had to do all along. Put those sps to dueling and forget about everything else.
 
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DeletedUser25480

personaly i like the new system, me and my friend have been testing our builds (originally we were both resistance) and found it to be good but not as effective against a dodger, we have both respecced into a pure dex shooter and a pure str melee and have both found it very balanced, people are complaining shooters are overpowered but that is not the case, my friend who is the melee player has won 90% of his duels against pure dex shooters.

overall im glad this update was applied, duels need more skill again rather than just sitting there tanking damage as a resistance, dex shooters IMO arent overpowered at all especially when you consider there low hp compared to a melee build :)
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
You cant tell from one day what is going on is the first thing ill say... but so far

Initial current findings.

Resist Build

Has been nerfed seems atm to be just enough without making it useless, love to know the formula as previously it was 1.5... maybe new is 1.33 ? anyways the days of just hoping to hit 1 or 2 times and win seems to be past and thats good..

Charisma nerf

Difficult to say atm havnt been attacked so cant comment on the tactics use... App is the same as I previously found and seems to be all but useless to avoid getting hit... all that seems to happen now is i win on pure damage and hit ratio which is absolutely not the point of that build... im winning barely but getting hit like never before and havnt even tried some of the hard ass duelers yet. ATM id say the Charisma/dodge build high lvl is dead

Dex/Shooter Pure

Not having as much success as expected yet... even with 250 dodge im getting hit 5 or 6 times although hitting very hard and on target more... this toon sleeps a lot atm and it is arizona so no idea the points some people have extra

Dex/Shooter Attack with App + Dodge

Having the most consistent duels so far with this one ... previously no chance against tactics soldiers .. now getting through and able to punch 10 or so lvls above and have a good chance at a win.

Will continue testing.

PS asking people to "tweak" their builds and move points around to give the findings btw is ok but in order to do it i expect AP moves are also going to be needed, thats expecting a bit much.... reason being .. if we do spend money moving things around and i can assure you itll cost some of my toons a lot and my pocket .. whats to say it wont be changed yet again soon when the Devs etc decide yup theres an imbalance lets change it again ? ill be out of pocket twice and for no benefit.

Would love to test this properly but im not spending my real money to do that... now if you were to gift some duelers some game money to respec in order to test thats more than fine by me.

Back to testing
 
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Bad N3ws

Why would you? Whilst 15AP is of course alot, it the grand scheme of things it isn't a build overhaul but a tweak to adapt to the new system. No point in evaluating the old builds "perfected" to an outdated formula across two years, make changes if you're able and see how the new "optimum" resistance, charisma and shooting builds fare :)
What i mean is it is hard to see the different on the new and old system if you don't use the same skill and gear. What do you have to compare with if you change that?

I disagree. 15 AP is not a lot. For all practical purposes it is a minor change.


As far as your comment about level 55 and range duelers that is erroneous. There is no flat rule on what level ranged duelers place sp into health and then no longer do so. I have exactly 8 sp in HP and am level 74. I have not placed any sp there probable since level 10. So loosing 1 sp per level over 55 just does not hold up, that varies to much from build to build.

The damage you state you are taking getting hit 6 times is proof itself that the resist build is still a viable build. If you were a shooter getting hit 6 times you would be taking double that damage.

I already show you exampel of how big of a diff jam or adding 20 reflex can do but still you say it is not a lot?

And ofc 55 sp in hp is not a set rule in any way, it is just a good number, enough HP to have some KO protection and you don't need to go back to your hotel after every duel.

8 Sp in HP i call that BS or you are not a dueler, i do between 1k-2k dmg on all my duels so i would KO you every time. A dead dueler is not much of a dueler.

My example there i got hit first 6 times and then 8 times is from before the patch, it have just not been enough time to test the new system but tomorrow when he wake up from his ko i will test it again.
 
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TJ Tuttle

Well-Known Member
What i mean is it is hard to see the different on the new and old system if you don't use the same skill and gear. What do you have to compare with if you change that?




I already show you exampel of how big of a diff jam or adding 20 reflex can do but still you say it is not a lot?

And ofc 55 sp in hp is not a set rule in any way, it is just a good number, enough HP to have some KO protection and you don't need to go back to your hotel after every duel.

8 Sp in HP i call that BS or you are not a dueler, i do between 1k-2k dmg on all my duels so i would KO you every time. A dead dueler is not much of a dueler.

My example there i got hit first 6 times and then 8 times is from before the patch, it have just not been enough time to test the new system but tomorrow when he wake up from his ko i will test it again.
I have 8 sp in HP

You can think what you want of my dueling skills. My stats speak for themselves.





Number of buffs used
0
Player versus player
Fort battle completed
7
Fort battle won
5
Knocked out in a duel
3
Knocked out opponents
275
Duels as challenger
519
Duels won
515
Duels lost
22
"One-Hit" Duel victory
11
Failed duels
5

Most ranged duelers sleep a lot because of HP's. And I doubt you would ko me. As far as the 15 Ap's..they don't account for the amount of damage difference since the change.
 
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Judge R Bean

I disagree. 15 AP is not a lot. For all practical purposes it is a minor change.
That simply is not true, it completely depends on where you have taken them from and what you have put them into. You say you put them in DEX and are dueling the same resist duelers? You may now have made your shooting bigger than their reflex, therefore giving you a completely different result in how much HP you hit them for pre AP move, of course you will also have 15 more aim. If that is the case then your new results are irrelivant in comparing dueling changes.

The only way you can give feed back re. post/pre dueling differences is if you change nothing, it has to be like for like.

I have 8 sp in HP

You can think what you want of my dueling skills. My stats speak for themselves.





Number of buffs used
0
Player versus player
Fort battle completed
7
Fort battle won
5
Knocked out in a duel
3
Knocked out opponents
275
Duels as challenger
519
Duels won
515
Duels lost
22
"One-Hit" Duel victory
11
Failed duels
5

Most ranged duelers sleep a lot because of HP's. And I doubt you would ko me. As far as the 15 Ap's..they don't account for the amount of damage difference since the change.
Stats mean nothing without knowing who you are dueling, they might be complete donkey's.
15 AP's can and will account for damage difference, see below....

These duels are on the same day before update, when he has his best vigor gear on that vigor is about 10 above my toughness, when I have my best toughness gear on that tougness is about 10 above his vigor, look at the difference in HP he can hit me for with just a few SP's either way.

Strike: Right arm
- 134 HP
No hit
No hit
No hit
Strike: Right shoulder
- 178 HP
Strike: Left arm
- 184 HP
No hit
No hit
Strike: Right arm
- 145 HP
No hit
Strike: Left shoulder
- 144 HP
No hit
Strike: Right shoulder
- 145 HP
Strike: Left arm
- 210 HP
No hit
No hit
Total health points
- 746 HP
Total health points
- 394 HP
Mark Renton wins the duel, gains 672 experience points and steals $168 from Judge R Bean.

_________________________________________________________________

Strike: Right arm
- 31 HP
No hit
Strike: Right shoulder
- 44 HP
No hit
Strike: Left arm
- 38 HP
No hit
No hit
Strike: Right arm
- 213 HP
Strike: Right arm
- 32 HP
No hit
Strike: Right shoulder
- 41 HP
No hit
No hit
No hit
No hit
No hit
Total health points
- 186 HP
Total health points
- 213 HP
Judge R Bean wins the duel and gains 376 experience points. Mark Renton did not carry any cash and Judge R Bean walks away without taking any money.
 
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TJ Tuttle

Well-Known Member
That simply is not true, it completely depends on where you have taken them from and what you have put them into. You say you put them in DEX and are dueling the same resist duelers? You may now have made your shooting bigger than their reflex, therefore giving you a completely different result in how much HP you hit them for pre AP move, of course you will also have 15 more aim. If that is the case then your new results are irrelivant in comparing dueling changes.

The only way you can give feed back re. post/pre dueling differences is if you change nothing, it has to be like for like.



Stats mean nothing without knowing who you are dueling, they might be complete donkey's.
15 AP's can and will account for damage difference, see above....
Like I said in my first post. Moved 15 from Cha to Dex.

And you know me well enough to know I duel very few donkeys. Donkey has no reward I am not interested. And while 15 AP will result in some damage increase it will not result in the current difference. So to recap.

Basically hitting the same number of times (no real change from AP) damage significantly changed (more than would be expected from moving AP's).

Change is pretty good IMO, pretty well balanced things out.
 
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Judge R Bean

Like I said in my first post. Moved 15 from Cha to Dex.

And you know me well enough to know I duel very few donkeys. Donkey has no reward I am not interested. And while 15 AP will result in some damage increase it will not result in the current difference. So to recap.

Basically hitting the same number of times (no real change from AP) damage significantly changed (more than would be expected from moving AP's).

Change is pretty good IMO.
But it can make a big difference, see those 2 duels I posted, he could only hit me 44hp max per shot when my tougness had only changed by about 20 SP's, before he was hitting 140's, it was a very small change, just enough to give me slightly bigger toughness.
 

Sumdumass

Well-Known Member
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here.

But it sounds to me like in the past you have been putting sp's in other places besides resist dueling skills and using them for jobs, etc, and relying on equipment to provide sps for dueling skills.

And now with the change to be a top dueler and compete at the same level you are going to have to use not only top equipment but actually use your sps for dueling instead of other things.

Whats wrong with that? I am a shooter. All of my sps go to dueling skills and I use the best equipment I can. Why should resist have to be any different than that.

With this change the days of resist ruling the range using part of their sps for dueling, relying on equip and an Hernando's are over as it should be.

Want to be a top dueler competitive dueler your going to have to do like top shooters have had to do all along. Put those sps to dueling and forget about everything else.
Perhaps I can explain it better. It's not that I do not want to put skills into dueling, it's more that the maximum amount of skills available for melee is now a lot less
compared to the ranged counter part.

In the past, I would move my SPs around to either match a dueler or skills for a job/quest as needed to get the job done. But a major benefit to this was to using top gear in the process because it would add the most skills to dueling as possible to your setup.

The problem I am having is that in order to remain competetive, top gear now- focusing on dodge in a melee build- is not similar or even close to being equal to the amount of skills provided by top gear for a ranged or even traditional melee resistance. There simply isn't much effective gear out there that takes vigor, aim, and dodge into consideration at the same time like there is for aim, shooting, dodge, appearance, or aim, vigor, toughness, reflex. You end up needing to use a ized set of gear crossing between ranged and melee which makes the overall amount of skill points added by gear at a severe disadvantage to the amount of effective skill points available to a ranged fighter.

An example of this, was where I showed (or attempted to) the best gear combination i could find (which is why i asked about it) for melee incorporating dodge verses melee incorporating resistance had a difference of 76 or so skill points added to the effective dueling skills. This is taking the amount of skills added by a traditional melee top gear which is about 178 sp, verses just 111 now. In real terms, that's similar to an 14-18 player level advantage in the amount of skill points available to tweek your build compared to a ranged dueler or traditional melee resistance gear.

With a difference that large, you will either need to be extremely lucky or be the top dueler over fort fighters, low level players, and workers only. Any pure dueler using ranged and top gear seemingly has a 15 level comparative advantage minimum because of the gear combination's available for that build before we even take into consideration the loss of effectiveness of applying attributes to strength or mobility compared to dexterity after the update.

That's a another severe disadvantage too. With resistance being nerfed, it's like a shooter placing attribute points into strength to get a health bonus where it even after the charisma nerf, a shooting and aim combination is benefited greatly by move attributes to to dexterity and there is nothing as potent of a combination for melee any more.
 

Judge R Bean

I'm finding my resist build even stronger after the update.
This build is only set-up to duel melee, everything is in stregnth, aim/vigor/toughness.
So far my toughness seems to be working exactly the same, opponents can't hit me any harder than they could before update except now I hit them 6/7/8 times a duel whereas before it was 2/3/4, most unexpected....:laugh:
 

Elmyr

I'm finding my resist build even stronger after the update.
This build is only set-up to duel melee, everything is in stregnth, aim/vigor/toughness.
So far my toughness seems to be working exactly the same, opponents can't hit me any harder than they could before update except now I hit them 6/7/8 times a duel whereas before it was 2/3/4, most unexpected....:laugh:
Wasn't the only change to resistance supposed to be removing 50% reflex vs. melee and toughness vs. ranged, or was it supposed to be weakened besides that? Dueling isn't my thing, but I had said in one of my town forums that I thought specialized resistance should still work.