Duelling Formula Feedback Thread

Morgan Caine

Well-Known Member
I think the key word here is random. We could argue about which is better - all dodge or app/dodge - but I know people who use both builds and they all say the same. It seems both options work as well or as badly, depending on how you look at it. You can have 15-20 insanely good victories and then some Sunday dueler twenty levels lower comes along, gets a lucky break and totally destroys you. The stances are more important than anything else now.

But - I'm sure this happened even before the update. It started happening before the update when the issue first came up so something changed then, I'm sure of it. And it had more profound effect on the dueling system than the new update.
 

DraGonFlyBG

Well-Known Member
so why do i get results like this:


???
im showing 200 appearance, 130 aim, 130 dodge, 200 tactics with premium.

if the guy put his AP on dext showing about 90 aim 90 shoot, and then put all his 264 sps into dodge...

for me appearance only has proper resuts vs non duelers, any good dueler (ie dext build) and appearance and tactics go down the drain.
I am dueling only vs good duelers on w10.When i have time, i will upload some screenshots of the duels.
P.S.:
Do you know how many dodge, aim, tactics, appearance that guy has ?

Appearance/Tactics - still think it's diminishing returns. You have 400, that is just too much. You should see how you do vs. someone with 50/100/200/300. I think wont see much difference when they have 100 and up.
Yeah after 1-2 weeks i will lower the appearance and will add the points into aim.Wanna see how my dodge will work then.And 400 appearance isnt too much after most of the players have over 250 aim :)

I tried to say that here:
"having a lot of Dodge increases the chance of dodging if your opponent aimed you where you were not dodging (red)" but thanks for the clarification... :D


What I still can't undestand is when I can't land 8 hits in situations like these:

[spoil]

[/spoil]
[spoil]

[/spoil]
[spoil]

[/spoil]


I can't imagine a formula in which this combination of Abilities and Stance doesn't give us more than 25% on hitting...
I think this is the biggest bug from the beginnigs oh the Game, jajajaja... :hmf:

Regards.
When you fight stand you double your aim.
If you have for example 100 aim and your appearance is even with your opponent tactics, then the game will pick you a number between 5 and 100 for your aim value.Lets say that it picks 62 for your aim value.62 x 2 =124 (cause you fight stand).
If your opponent has 100 dodge,lets say that the game pick 58 for his dodge.
You are aiming in his head so you cant double your aim, nor he can double his dodge (ofc you can double your aim one more time if he fight stand and he can double his dodge if he ducks down, but lets say that he is protecting his sides most of the time).
So in that round you have 124aim vs 58dodge = you are landing hit in his head.

But if the game choose 31 for your aim value and 63 for his dodge value, then : 31x2 vs 63 = 62aim vs 63dodge = you are not landing a hit.

Its all luck most of the time, but as higher your aim is - as bigger the chance to be picked a higher number for your aim value is, its the same for the dodging.

P.S. :

Now after the update, i guess that its something like this : If you have for example 300 aim, the game wont pick you between 5 and 300 - it will probably picks between 150 and 300.If you have 250aim it will picks between 100 and 250, if you have lower than 200 - it will picks between 5-50 and 200 and so on.As higher your aim or dodge is, as higher the down border will be. I am only guessing ofcourse and this numbers are only for example.
 
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-Neo-

Banned
I am dueling only vs good duelers on w10.When i have time, i will upload some screenshots of the duels.
P.S.:
Do you know how many dodge, aim, tactics, appearance that guy has ?
no idea, but as hes 25 levels lower, so in no way can he compete with my tactics/appearance.

If he put all his aps and sps in char/tactics/ appearance this would give him
90+132=222tactics and appearance with 0 aim and 0 dodge and 0 shoot.

so if he had 200 app and tactics to counter mine that would leave him 44 sps

22 aim vs my 130?
22 dodge vs my 130?
0 shoot ?
so that build wouldnt even come close either.

im guessing hes a dext build as no other build could come close:
148 aim, 148 shoot, 148 dodge.

so shows that my points in appearance and tactics are absolutely useless.
 

Hellstromm

No Neo, shows you making assumptions and then coming to convenient conclusions based on your assumptions, which is precisely my argument against your sort of reasoning here and just about everywhere else Neo. Point being, you're not approaching this logically, not applying proper skills of deduction, you're approaching this emotionally, fitting the facts to suit your conclusions. I ask that you stop that and start applying deductive reasoning, see where the evidence points. If a change is to be made, emotion isn't the means to make it happen. Programmers are, far and away, logic-oriented. Please consider this in your examinations, thanks.
 

-Neo-

Banned
No Neo, shows you making assumptions and then coming to convenient conclusions based on your assumptions, which is precisely my argument against your sort of reasoning here and just about everywhere else Neo. Point being, you're not approaching this logically, not applying proper skills of deduction, you're approaching this emotionally, fitting the facts to suit your conclusions. I ask that you stop that and start applying deductive reasoning, see where the evidence points. If a change is to be made, emotion isn't the means to make it happen. Programmers are, far and away, logic-oriented. Please consider this in your examinations, thanks.
i find you patronising in a very petty sort of way but i shall answer your noob comments anyway:

not at all
as it is it is impossible for him to win with a char build considering im pure char 25 levels above him.
it isnt a resist build
so its fairly easy to conclude it is a dexterity build

are you suggesting he beat me with a load of points in fms, or swimming maybe? huh? o animal instinc duelist!?
ill ask him, ill be damned if that is the case and you are right.

ps you keep on asking us professional duelists to bring facts because you dont believe us, for me the onus is on you to convince us as we know very much what we are talking about when it comes to the subject of dueling.
if you think us professionals are wrong then please prove your point.
thanks
 
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Hellstromm

I find it funny you call yourself a professional and, contrastly, call me a noob, particularly since I ended up correcting you on Inno's duel history a few times already. I suspect it's a tactical effort on your part to try and give your statements more credibility. The problem is, Neo, his isn't a contest of who's arguments are more credible, it's an issue of presenting facts and evidence to help Inno's developers determine balance issues. Until you get that through your noggin', that your posts here are perceived as just a long, drawn-out series of unsubstantiated complaints, you're essentially going to be ignored by the developers.

And no, I'm not being patronizing, I'm being informative. I interacted (and still do) with the developers. I'm reasonably certain as to what they'll listen to and what they won't.
 
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Texas Redd

New Member
I am enjoying the new duel system. As a full time dueler, I am benefitting from my new build. I am winning against folks I could not defeat in the past. However, I am also losing still against some that I thought for sure I would beat. It is keeping me guessing....
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
yep and it's about to run me off. i'm tired of spending cash to move ap and sp around trying to find the best dueling build when it seems to be coming down to pure luck anyway
Its not pure luck, far from it, there are calculations and certain builds better than others. The only time it comes down to total luck is when the build is pretty much the same.

Saying all that the original assessment of what would be the build after 1.33 by a few of us holds.... there really is only one top build ... the rest dont even come close, and thats just about killed the game for variation but I have noticed there are very few running around with the killer build.Maybe its just that most dont like the sacrifice it takes but its not used to the max as i feared so thats good at least.
 
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mazort

I hate the new dueling system.
I got used to the fact that I can't beat everyone, but now everyone beats me.

It is obvious that pure dexterity shooters with only aiming and dodging have advantage on pure strength melee with only aiming and dodging and I think it is not fair.

I think that this change came in order to make us spend money and nuggets to test the system. at least Inno could let duelers the opportunity to use reset skills for a month or so to test their builds.

I think of quitting the game since I liked dueling very much, but now it became very frustrating for me.

Good luck all duelers.
 

Scalp em

This is a strange thread. The programmers want feedback? Don't they understand that they need huge amounts of data ... like 20+ players documenting 500+ games each and that's just for starters!

Of course I'm completely wrong if they massively screwed up and if so they don't need us to tell them do they?

If they want to improve the game they should consult with the very best players not the 95% who don't grasp the finer details of the game. The truth is they are totally clueless. For example when they changed resistance the first time by 50%!!!!!!! and then changed it to 75%!!!! If you're going to change programming start at 5% and test it for 3-6 months ask top players if it's improved ... then ask them if it needed adjustment.

I think that the problem is compounded because we have middle men they consult, forum staff instead of the top tier of players. So the staff try to do what's best, seeing the political struggles and use there intuition to decide what's best to say .. hoping for a positive response from INNO. But it's all a huge mis-mash of ideas without clear understanding.

My advise is to listen to Victor Krugger and 20 other top duelers. Vic gets it right about 90% of the time compared to INNO who get it right less than 30% of the time.
There is a main reason for this :-
1) Vic is a skilled player who doesn't look at improvements based on grabbing a quick buck he wants diversity and game balance. (I support ideas that bring profit to Inno on a long term basis and build customer growth)
2) This game has gone to the dogs because INNO want to unbalance the game in favour of the weaker majority of players, just like there pay to win policy. The long term draw back is growing dissatisfaction and players leave. What happened to my suggestions about game changes? Zip ... the thread was closed before a proper discussion could develop, was it open two days?.

Put simply when someone totally messes up it time to apologize and do a 180% u turn! Change the dueling back to how it was three and a half years ago. Or do something like Victor or I suggested.
Major Game Overhaul http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?t=41134&highlight=scalp. (read about the dueling)
Duel Ranking System http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?t=42541&highlight=scalp

Just letting you know it's pointless to discuss a handful of games as if it provides any useful information at all??

When I studied construction techniques I practiced on 12 town over 9 months documenting my tests for ever build .. that's how to learn about programming secrets. Of course INNO introduced markets which makes skillful builders far less important. Just like they've now done to dueling. What next on INNO's list to destroy? and don't mention Facebook.

Lastly and most importantly the best players rarely give away there game secrets so why ask here publicly? Ask them in private. I have much to say as a dueler with 90% win ratio at ranked 2nd before I quit and so do many other top players have things to say. But not here. Get the programmers to telegram us and ask for an email address. I will be told I'm off topic but actually it's all about feedback on dueling! and if programmers want details message me.

Regard Scalp em
formerly W11 and many other worlds with different names.
 

abskay

just a quest about dueling how do we know top 20 duelers is it by their ranking in the table or just noticing they are good all round just by tables doesn't necessarily mean someone is good at dueling
 

-Neo-

Banned
just a quest about dueling how do we know top 20 duelers is it by their ranking in the table or just noticing they are good all round just by tables doesn't necessarily mean someone is good at dueling
the only way is to duel them and find out.

personally i rank players by the amount of dueling they do
when you see 500+ duel wins, you know the player is serious.
 

Scalp em

just a quest(ion) about dueling how do we know top 20 duelers is it by their ranking in the table or just noticing they are good all round just by tables doesn't necessarily mean someone is good at dueling
In my opinion it's not important to find every great dueler, 20 is enough to advise the programmers. These players ideally use melee and range in different worlds. To avoid going off subject I have created this thread.

http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?p=609407#post609407
 

Grimniir

Member
Something is definetily weird, if random isn't what it's all about now. My 0-dodge adventurer, which means I get attacked with dodging skills between 0 and about 45, usually around 7) almost never gets hit in the green zones anymore. But all hits in my red zones are also hitting in the last half of the duel. that means round 1-5, 2-6 etc.

That can't be right. What's the point of the dodge skill? (or, perhaps, aim?)

I never attack, ofc, don't know how that would work.

For those who wonder, my tactic skill with all my defensive equipment(which I wear when possible, not so much now) is around 95, adventurer.