Duelling Formula Feedback Thread

mikec

Dueling upgrade is just pants..what upgrade..more like a down grade to pee players off so they leave the game..Remember when we had over 200000 players..BIG TIP..IF IT AINT BROKE DONT TRY TO FIX IT...Now feel that ive wasted three years on this game..all because of a stupid upgrade...Very upset and will be killing off my characters in several worlds...I bet by March were down to less than 50000 players..
 

athulsudhish

I think we need to distribute.aim,dodge and shoot or vigor equally.for a good dueler
 

Doc Paine

Well-Known Member
Sheesh!!!! - bottom line, the only thing that ever needed changing 'EVER;' in dueling was the method of gaining Health Points.
The melee resist build always had the HP advantage from being a strength build, and hence the reason why there were various nerf changes to resist over the updates to counter the high HP melee duelers who could duel all day with little damage.
If there was no additional HP for melee build over ranged who'd care? Resist would be countered by what ever you cared to spec to.
HP should never have favored Strength builds - period - that was a massive oversight by the devs.
Everything else was in a sort of cosmic balance, because you chose your build and AP/SPs for the duel, depending on what you wanted to be.
HP should always have been related to you progressing through the levels only, so really it was a conceptual issue for the devs from the get-go.
Additional HP should have been quest/character related achievements, so that the fort fighters, questers or keen duelers etc could have worked for additional (non permanent) HPs
I agree totally with the monster dueler players here, the latest changes make the previously effective range of duelers limited and that is a massive shame!!!.
 

Elmyr

I think we need to distribute.aim,dodge and shoot or vigor equally.for a good dueler
Then you won't hit someone who's dodging heavy or dodge someone who's aim heavy. SP in vigor also gives you a disadvantage against ranged duelers with free aim from dexterity.
 

-Neo-

Banned
Then you won't hit someone who's dodging heavy or dodge someone who's aim heavy. SP in vigor also gives you a disadvantage against ranged duelers with free aim from dexterity.
someone who favours one or the other aim or dodge comes out losing.
the best is like athulsudhish says for both ranged and melee.
ofc ranged comes out on top because of the sp advantage.
but as vic shows, even with an even layout you still lose 10% of duels due to stance.

flip a coin dueling...
 

Hellstromm

You know, I created a brainstorm/idea post earlier, and then left it for anyone to take over, call for a vote, and have it presented to the developers.

But, instead, I see the same people trolling this thread and ptherwise getting nothing more accomplished than exercising their fingers. For example, -Neo-, if you really gave a damn, you would quit with your thread trolling, take over the proposal, and make changes according to what you and others deem necessary.
 
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Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
You know, I created a brainstorm/idea post earlier, and then left it for anyone to take over, call for a vote, and have it presented to the developers.

But, instead, I see the same people trolling this thread and ptherwise getting nothing more accomplished than exercising their fingers. For example, -Neo-, if you really gave a damn, you would quit with your thread trolling, take over the proposal, and make changes according to what you and others deem necessary.
Wow judging by your posts on various threads you must have gotten a bag of humbugs for xmas instead of some xmas cheer :rolleyes:... anyyyways.

I don't know about Neo but....

I really thought long and hard about doing a proposal & getting really involved but heres whats stopped me...

1 The lack of interest from players of any big numbers in general on these forums so it'll be seen as a minority opinion at best and the obvious road inno are taking this game....

2 I'm not paid to develop their idea or increase their revenue, you could say its to my playing enjoyment benefit but then again all game development could be volunteer basis but it isn't

3 What on earth is the point suggesting ideas when its clear certainly to my mind anyway that after 3 years and currently having probably the worst ever in regards to fairness and competitive build options that having a fair and cool dueling system actually isnt what Inno want at all. ( Strange because the revenue that it generated has been ruined due to the changes, and is a terrible business decision )

4 Its been 2 months and had there been any serious concerns then something would have already have been done as would be expected in a good companys strategy, especially on a game such as this.

5 .net seems to be an ignored server, probably due to the lack of mugs that some other servers posses re nugget buying etc

6 They still cant update without the German language problem for crissake, not hard to get a translation done and since Zet has gone even less inclination to do good work.

7 With all the ideas players have given inno over the years and tweaks etc has any one of them ever been thanked or gifted anything as a thank you ? not to my knowledge, in fact its all one way traffic on that front ... us making inno money.

Over the years I have come to recognise the way Inno work and its far from as bad as some gaming cos but its very clear they only care about the revenue stream on a very short sighted basis.That stream is drying up due to bad management and all Inno do is continue to give players less value for more nuggets .... the xmas box rip off and the pathetic 1 day 20% extra nuggets free offer proves that. the west is dying and a lot is due to their lack of customer service and value for money, I can't encourage that style of business for free it wouldn't be right next to the way they treat the paying community.

Above all I believe that should all the effort be put in and changes made it would only be done at the expense of further nugget respecs from everyone yet again, I was screwed on the recent one re the AP not being reset ill be damned if I will help be responsible for making thousands of players spend even more nuggets on yet another respec on a game that is quite frankly dying on its feet. The past year or so has had pointless updates to a large extent and countless imbalances due to bad testing and lack of care.

Now you can berate me all you wish for not stepping up etc but the information is here for all to see ... they have all the info they need,are paid to do it, and if they wanted to would have already adjusted. The very fact they havn't leads me to conclude they are just waiting until sufficient time passes before catching everyone yet again for a respec, IF they care at all, which I seriously doubt they do..... I'm not giving one nugget more to this game after the last few examples of Innos greed and i'm certainly not going to improve their revenue stream for free. There would have been a time but not anymore now that greed has become paramount for them.

Now If Inno wish to consult they could pay me and a number of other top Duellers for it, kinda like a professional dueling think tank.The fact that they wouldnt entertain it if there was money involved should tell you all you need to know, well heres the thing...... just like inno there are things i'll give for free and things i wont. If they want my Premium attn they would have to, just like I have them, pay me for it. ;)
 

Hellstromm

1 The lack of interest from players of any big numbers in general on these forums so it'll be seen as a minority opinion at best and the obvious road inno are taking this game....
Your assumption is incorrect. A properly presented idea, receiving sufficient votes, is entered into the JIRA, which is then prioritized by the project manager.

2 I'm not paid to develop their idea or increase their revenue, you could say its to my playing enjoyment benefit but then again all game development could be volunteer basis but it isn't
I see, but yet you (and a handful of other trolls) have ample time and energy to complain, scream and rant about it. Good job...

3 What on earth is the point suggesting ideas when its clear certainly to my mind anyway that after 3 years and currently having probably the worst ever in regards to fairness and competitive build options that having a fair and cool dueling system actually isnt what Inno want at all. ( Strange because the revenue that it generated has been ruined due to the changes, and is a terrible business decision )
It is typical revisionist history there Victor. You are conveniently forgetting about how the game was, and all the things that have been added to the game, largely based on community requests.

4 Its been 2 months and had there been any serious concerns then something would have already have been done as would be expected in a good companys strategy, especially on a game such as this.
I see, so your logic is, "in my opinion it's broken so it should have fixed itself." If you don't effectively present alternatives, don't expect changes.

5 .net seems to be an ignored server, probably due to the lack of mugs that some other servers posses re nugget buying etc
Once again you don't know what you're talking about. Trolls and trolling are largely ignored, yes. But, well presented ideas, which *.net has provided more than most, are indeed included into the game or posed in the roadmap.

6 They still cant update without the German language problem for crissake, not hard to get a translation done and since Zet has gone even less inclination to do good work.
Translations issues are the chore of the community managers. As it has been clearly indicated, there's presently a transition of managers here at the *.net.

7 With all the ideas players have given inno over the years and tweaks etc has any one of them ever been thanked or gifted anything as a thank you ? not to my knowledge, in fact its all one way traffic on that front ... us making inno money.
Hmm, yeah actually. Besides such instances as my, Diggo, Da Twista, Gem, Tracey and Morthy having been hired, from within the community, for our contributions to this community (and other areas of Inno), and now Desi's upcoming employ, it is also the thanks you receive on occasion with ingame gifts, additional quests, added items, and new features.

Over the years I have come to recognise the way Inno work and its far from as bad as some gaming cos but its very clear they only care about the revenue stream on a very short sighted basis.
It is convenient, but disingenuous, to point out this year's xmas box event and gloss over the many years of generous features, quests, options, etc added to this game. The West's games are still being hosted because they still provide revenue. That's a simple concept to understand. If, at some point, The West costs more to maintain than revenue generated, it will go down --- just like every other mmorpg and browser game has done in the past. To think anything last forever is grossly unrealistic, and particularly unrealistic when in discussion of hosted computer games.

Above all I believe that should all the effort be put in and changes made it would only be done at the expense of further nugget respecs from everyone yet again
If you don't bother to provide your recommendations, they'll do it their way. Doh!

Now you can berate me all you wish for not stepping up etc but the information is here for all to see ... they have all the info they need,are paid to do it, and if they wanted to would have already adjusted. The very fact they havn't leads me to conclude they are just waiting until sufficient time passes before catching everyone yet again for a respec...
The primary focus of developers is to act on bugs and to further develop the game. It is not to search the 13+ forums, in languages other than German, and find (in a flood of posts on a variety of topics) the few gem insights posed by a handful of players and even fewer trolls whose presentation of issues are usually colored and often insulting to those very same managers and developers (just like your above post).

The most effective means to get something to their attention is provided in the Ideas & Brainfarts section. A failure on your part to take that route is not the failure of the developers.

Now If Inno wish to consult they could pay me and a number of other top Duellers for it, kinda like a professional dueling think tank.The fact that they wouldnt entertain it if there was money involved should tell you all you need to know, well heres the thing...... just like inno there are things i'll give for free and things i wont. If they want my Premium attn they would have to, just like I have them, pay me for it. ;)
Funny, because they seem to get your whining for free. ;)

Anyway, there ARE means to be 'paid' by Inno. I was paid, in cash. Volunteers are paid in nuggets. Beta testers are paid in nuggets for reporting bugs. The problem here, Victor, is that you're putting the horse before the carriage. To be recognized, to have your views be considered, you have to demonstrate an interest in not merely your own self-serving welfare, but the welfare of the community, the employees of Inno, and the company as a whole. Putting your own interests before all other things doesn't get you hired in the real world and, when it comes right down to it, being "paid" by Inno IS the real world.

Closing comment: A game is a game, but if you have a vested interest in that game, that form of entertainment, it's up to you to determine just how important it is for you. If you're looking to make a buck, so be it. But, if you're looking to make a buck by repeatedly demonstrating you are more willing to MAKE work for the company (by trolling and otherwise) instead of take on some of that work, don't expect to be taken seriously. You're talking about being hired, and yet you're acting like you're entitled. When has that ever worked for you in the workforce and why do you think it will work for you here?
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
HeHe,

Knew you couldn't avoid staying on the outside and quiet for long, i do believe I just manoeuvred you back into a proper forum post ....sucker ;)

Welcome back :)
 

Scalp em

I agree 100% with Victor !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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HondaTiger

Member
Poor customer service

i've been playing on and off for a few years and for the most part don't use the forum but the continued issues with the dueling system are really aggravating. like many others that have already left and will be leaving in the coming months i am considering the same.

Your assumption is incorrect. A properly presented idea, receiving sufficient votes, is entered into the JIRA, which is then prioritized by the project manager.
what # of votes = sufficient?

the PM prioritizes based on what? after working in IT for almost 20 years i can tell you that the PM's priority very rarely aligns with the customers priority.

entering a ticket in JIRA doesn't mean it will get done... i've seen JIRA systems with hundreds of requests that will never be prioritized high enough to get any serious attention

I see, but yet you (and a handful of other trolls) have ample time and energy to complain, scream and rant about it. Good job... I see, so your logic is, "in my opinion it's broken so it should have fixed itself." If you don't effectively present alternatives, don't expect changes.
i really can't believe that's the attitude that inno would take. you really think that we should solve your problems? if people are complaining it's because something is broken... it's Inno's job to fix it, not ours... we aren't partners in this endeavor we are the customers. we enjoy playing online games and if inno doesn't have a good method of engaging the voice of the customer then that's on them.

Translations issues are the chore of the community managers. As it has been clearly indicated, there's presently a transition of managers here at the *.net..
and your point is? please don't point fingers at others... the customer sees Inno as one entity. if you go and buy a car and realize later that there is an oil leak do you really want to take it back and be told... "sorry, that's the job of the engine guy and we are in transition. maybe at some point we'll get around to it".... NO

The West's games are still being hosted because they still provide revenue. That's a simple concept to understand. If, at some point, The West costs more to maintain than revenue generated, it will go down --- just like every other mmorpg and browser game has done in the past. To think anything last forever is grossly unrealistic, and particularly unrealistic when in discussion of hosted computer games.
if that's the attitude then it is surely doomed. Inno should worry about maximizing revenue, not simply generating it... and the way to maximize is to listen to the voice of the customer.

The primary focus of developers is to act on bugs and to further develop the game. It is not to search the 13+ forums, in languages other than German, and find (in a flood of posts on a variety of topics) the few gem insights posed by a handful of players and even fewer trolls whose presentation of issues are usually colored and often insulting to those very same managers and developers (just like your above post).
finally something i can agree with... however, it's Inno that posted the question, and now wants the CUSTOMER to develop a solution to their screw up. if the developers don't want to read the forums they should develop some sort of in-game survey system (like they do with the announcements) that gauge customer satisfaction in general and especially after updates.

there you go there's an idea for free.... how many people need to vote on it again? and i'm sure i posted it in the wrong area of the forum w/out the proper formatting... well maybe one day it will find it's way into the JIRA ignore list.
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
Just an upto date observation, when two Dex dodge/aim meet I am finding the ratio falls usually in favour of the defender 3 or 4 to one,which means dodge is definitely acting like tactics used to. Even when aim exceeds the opponents dodge and theres no tactics kit involved the defender still has far more likelihood of winning than the attacker, concluding it is better not to attack a similar Dex dodge build as the odds are stacked against you but rather let them attack you.

Hmmm come to think of it I just said the best def build is also the Dex Dodger ... yeesh how boring things have gotten eh ?
 
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Berkie

Well said Tiger! I am tired of spending my real life cash on this game to re-skill because the fort people get hurt in a duel. so hey, lets fix the game in favor of them & lets not worry about the rest of the game nor players. Now they can safely travel to a fort battle if their alliance is in it, then they "fix" the best dueling pants we had & gave them to the fort people. Now we are "fixing" dueling to accommodate them even more. Are you smelling a pattern here?
I've been done with this game for months now, so sick & tired of the rules being changed mid game. Only reason I stick around is because I've met some wonderful people in here.
 

kingjamesg

Well as i see the new duel system:

All they have done is made it like a job. If you wanna be good at fort fighting, well you need to have lots of fort fighting skills and you will be good. If you wanna make lots of money and find cool stuff, then you do trading or shooting as a skill. and if you do either of those you wont be good at dueling. If you wanna be good at dueling well you need to have a dueling skills now. especially dodge and aim. Yah i know tactics , appearance, vigor and shooting are still dueling skills, they just arent as important as dodge and aim but are needed. So its like choosing a job, or a path in the game. I actually see nothing wrong with the changes they made, its harder to make money now, but i still can. I have been having pretty good luck at dueling since the update. I will say i loose a lot more then i used too. I am winning about 8 or 9 out 10 duels. I also like how resistance has a real hard time hitting you finally. They shouldnt land a hit at all, but one lucky shot every now and then isnt as bad as before. I find that with the new dueling formula i can beat more people i couldnt before mainly resistance. I also believe that where you aim and dodge plays a huge factor in any duel now. I find myself having to think more when dueling. This has made it to where ill see a lot of my duels 250-0 win or loose. i see way more duels with less damage then before. my average was before the update maybe about 1500 a duel now i think its around 500. but a win is still a win. Knowing this i almost always duel people in the top 15 of dueling. sometimes i go below this because i am bored and want to duel someone
 

Hellstromm

Honda, like so many others that have made the error, I do not presently speak for Inno. I am not employed by them at this time, so my comments are my own. Sheesh, kinda tired of having to repeat myself.

what # of votes = sufficient?
http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=388487&postcount=2

the PM prioritizes based on what? after working in IT for almost 20 years i can tell you that the PM's priority very rarely aligns with the customers priority.
I frankly don't know what his basis for prioritization is, I can only surmise it's a logical one. I.e., cost analysis, profit analysis, impact analysis, game balance, etc.

entering a ticket in JIRA doesn't mean it will get done... i've seen JIRA systems with hundreds of requests that will never be prioritized high enough to get any serious attention
You never worked for Inno. In fact, based on your above comments, I would say you worked for a crappy company that wasn't progressive and didn't care. I worked for Inno in the past, and utilized their JIRA. In most cases, ideas were effectively utilized and promptly acted upon.

i really can't believe that's the attitude that inno would take. you really think that we should solve your problems? if people are complaining it's because something is broken... it's Inno's job to fix it, not ours... we aren't partners in this endeavor we are the customers.
Inno, despite the notions of so many trolls in this community, actually does care. They care for constructive input, they care for ideas, they care to make their product better. But, as they are working and not playing, they don't always have a good feel for what goes on in the game. That's where the community is supposed to make that bit of effort to effectively point out the areas that need work. Dramatics and insults aren't going to be listened to, obviously.

Also, Honda, although I understand your stance, it is unfortunately not a realistic examination of what presently happens with almost all games and software out there nowadays. Ever since Microsoft popped out with that horrid thing called an operating system, communities (customers) have served as a primary source for product development and testing. It may not be pretty, but it's cost-effective and just about every software development company does it.

we enjoy playing online games and if inno doesn't have a good method of engaging the voice of the customer then that's on them.
Which is EXACTLY MY DAMN POINT, they DO!!!

http://forum.the-west.net/forumdisplay.php?f=10

The problem here is that we have a buttload of trolls in this forum that have nothing better than to stir drama. If a problem arises, if a feature is released and is problematic, juvenile drama ensues and our handful of trolls fuel the discontent to serve their ill-intended agenda. An effective system IS in place. It has existed since 2008 and when Diggo and I were running the show here, we streamlined the procedures and ensured the system worked as intended. And it does, it works as intended. If you recognize a design flaw, saying "it sucks" doesn't do crap for the developers. It doesn't help them to figure out what direction to take. That's why providing insights helps, and it doesn't take any time to present. What it takes is a level head.

finally something i can agree with... however, it's Inno that posted the question, and now wants the CUSTOMER to develop a solution to their screw up.
No, that's not the case at all. Inno posed the question. I saw nobody effectively answering the question and saw trolls take over the thread (do consider, many posts in that thread were deleted due to forum violations). So, I (not an employee) proposed they instead present something collective and concrete. And when I saw nobody stepping up, trolls having a good ol' time on that thread, I took the initiative and used the Ideas & Brainfarts section to pose a proposal:

http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?t=48664

I then had real life things to focus on and asked for anyone to take it over and make their preferred adjustments. Honda, do me a favor and examine the above proposal and notice how trolls decided to act up on that proposal as well. They didn't step up to take it over and provide their own adjustments. They didn't provide productive discourse. They just trolled...

This is the problem Honda, and it is this issue that is causing reasoned people to think something "other" than what they would reasonably have determined had they not been influenced by pages and pages of trolling.
 

Judge R Bean

Just an upto date observation, when two Dex dodge/aim meet I am finding the ratio falls usually in favour of the defender 3 or 4 to one,which means dodge is definitely acting like tactics used to. Even when aim exceeds the opponents dodge and theres no tactics kit involved the defender still has far more likelihood of winning than the attacker, concluding it is better not to attack a similar Dex dodge build as the odds are stacked against you but rather let them attack you.

Hmmm come to think of it I just said the best def build is also the Dex Dodger ... yeesh how boring things have gotten eh ?
I have to agree with that, I seem to win more defending than attacking, which is OK as I'm bored now with dueling and doing other things. Although on W11 obviously I'd still love to be winning most duels......

I also like how resistance has a real hard time hitting you finally. They shouldnt land a hit at all, but one lucky shot every now and then isnt as bad as before.
Yes at last, certain people, especially on W11 will have to think about how they duel now instead of taking the easy option.
 
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Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
K Mr H keeper of the flame.

You do realise without the dozen or so trolls as you call them these forums would be dead ... long time passed.

Of course if what your saying is some of us don't wish to do the job inno are paid to ... your right .... just be careful you don't fall into the roll of a shill because i see a lot of that but don't say it out loud when maybe i should :razz:

king I have a lot of respect for you as a dueller and was just wondering if you feel dueling is still about skill or basically comes down to luck ... i win a similar ratio but somehow i feel its diminished since the change and i take no satisfaction winning duels i know are one hit wonders ... i feel they could have easily been the other way.... just curious
 
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Hellstromm

Actually Victor, there's less than a dozen trolls, but they are very much trolls in my interpretation of such. It is also not at all true these forums would be dead without the trolls. Indeed, it would be more hospitable and thus more inviting for others to participate. Perhaps you should examine just this thread and see how some posters went out of their way to bully other posters into silence (and consider as well that there are many such posts, with far worse behavior, that were deleted by staff so as to buffer the intensity of said bullying and trolling)... then perhaps you'll see what I've been witnessing for quite some time.