Duelling changes - The West Beta!

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DeletedUser

Below is the wiki entry which I think is accurate. I believe the 10% increase is spread out over the course of the day and does not occur all at once. I'm not really sure though as I am only doing the 2 daily duels for the bond, so I am not really keeping track of my motivation. I did my two duels last night before bed which would have dropped my motivation to 94% and it is about 12 hours later and my motivation is at 99% so it seems correct.


With each duel the motivation goes down by 3 points. A lower motivation means that less experience points are received. For example, with a motivation of 50% the winner only receives half of the calculated points. With a motivation of 0% the winner gets only a few experience points (like 0-3 points). The motivation increases by 10 points per day.


p.s. Maybe as a counterbalance to the loss of job KO's, the motivation increase could be moved up to 24% ( 1 % per hour ). That way it would even out the the drop by someone who does 8 duels ( 96 energy ) a day which would drop motivation by 24%.
 
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Deleted User - 1693871

Correct, duel motivation does not currently reset to 100%.

Even those running the game seem uncertain about some of the game mechanics. This, also Diggo on Beta wasn't aware that the experience, luck and money bonuses from sets are applied at the end of jobs, not when you queue them.

So in this brave new world we will have to choose between the set bonuses, or being in duel gear in an attempt to protect our non-duelling builds.

Or we can duel someone else for the purpose of knocking ourselves out.

As long as you follow the rules (no pushing of XP through duels) There would be no issue here.

Any duel where you queue someone else with the express intention of KOing yourself, is one where that other player will gain some XP for the win. Therefore it can be viewed as pushing of XP through duels.

I'm sure players who have spent years working on their accounts would like more certainty that they won't be punished or even banned for KOing themselves on other players. Especially if they have a high bounty. This is a problem being created by the developers, after all, fixing a 'bug' that has been present in the game since it started. It is going to cause a headache for the moderation team. Last year I had the situation where I duelled a mod, and that mod then mailed me accusing me of arranging to win a bounty off someone else in a duel. I didn't even know the other player. He showed me the report where he had taken the bounty. I could have accused him right back of the same thing.

So where is the confidence for us players, denied our current PvP opt out mechanism, that these situations won't simply increase and get us banned?
 

DeletedUser36979

I can understand the point of view that says that a job KO should not give protection from duelling. So I suggest that Inno considers a PvP opt out button, with a cooldown of maybe a week in both directions. It should not be a premium feature, just as it wasn't in another Inno game couple of years ago.

That way those duellers will at least be certain that the people they are duelling are willing to be part of that aspect of the game. I'm sure that none of the duellers welcoming these changes in this forum are the sort who would want to pad their stats with easy wins against non-duellers, after all. :)

That is a great suggestion, which works well in many other games, so I can't see why it shouldn't here. Sure there are things to consider, like the cooldown, a week sounds fine to me, but also what should be done if you have a bounty on you and want to go PvE, and there would be a few parts in the new main questline that would need an alternate route, so PvE'ers aren't forced to enter PvP to complete the questline.
I think this could bring life back to some servers and the towns would flourish again
 

DeletedUser22685

There have been some good points over the last few pages, but some other things I've read have made me a little frustrated and I feel like I have a bit to get off my chest.

I'm tired of hearing people saying they're going to be forced to duel against their wishes. You're not being forced into anything. The most assured way to remain protected from duels has existed since 2008 is still well and truly at your disposal. Being a member of a town has a list of advantages long enough that we're all capable of thinking of a dozen of them without me making a list here. It has always had one disadvantage: you are fair game for duellers.

The trade-off between being a member of a town and avoiding duels was an integral part of what made this game great. Inno stated countless times that there would be no way to opt out of duels without leaving town. Through a bug that went unnoticed, this hasn't been the case for the last couple of years (I know job KOs existed before that, but like I said earlier, they only became a major problem recently in the grand scheme of things) and as a result, people have grown accustomed to having everything their way.

If you joined a town as a worker or a fort fighter, you relied on your town's duellers to provide back up and protect you. You were also tasked with avoiding those duels yourself which could easily annoy a dueller as much as they could annoy you if you played it right. The town wars that resulted from duellers camping workers were far more exciting than any fort battle that I've seen since 2012, but they're now a completely extinct part of the game. You no longer see a group of 5+ duellers organising to raid a town at a particular server time, sharing reports and stances. You hardly see any activity in most towns' duel forums and there's hardly any banter or rivalry between towns or players that extends beyond a multi battle or a supposed imbalance in the fort fighting scene.

It was the major drawing point this game had that made it unique and it's been missing for years. You can claim that you're being forced to change your gameplay in a manner that you don't approve of, but what about the duellers of old who have been affected over a period of years and essentially gone without a huge chunk of the potential for enjoyment that they had initially?

Quite frankly, I'm sick of every update being instantly met with whining and threats to quit simply because players are unwilling to even attempt to adapt. And before I'm called out on this, I chose the word whining intentionally. I don't class complaints and whining as the same thing. Complaints, as long as they're constructive, are highly beneficial to the development of new updates. Whining is what I'm seeing from most posters here. If you made a valid point in opposition to the change, I'm probably not talking about you.

But this thread so far is a prime example of everything that is wrong with the general attitude of the vocal portion of the player base in terms of providing feedback. This update is huge. It has the potential to be the biggest thing since 2.0 as well as paving the way for future much-needed developments in terms of fixing the broken duel formula. The entire intent behind this update was to bring balance to the divide between duellers and non-duellers. 0 mot duelling is supposedly a workaround to avoid unintended penalties that come hand in hand with duelling "normally". It is these low level 0 mots that are the main culprits behind the camping of non-duellers. By removing the deterrents of exp duelling, we can assume that if 0 mot duellers chose that route for the reasons they claim that they did, high level duelling for experience should become the norm.

In response to this, duel protection from job KOs - which is an exploit no matter how you choose to look at it - is being removed. The only reason this bug has been allowed to remain in the game for so long is because of a recognised issue with 0 mot duelling that has been complained about by non-duellers countless times. Admittedly, I don't know if it will have the intended effect in its current state due to the amount of 0 mots who pretend they need targets but really like beating up on the weak. But at least the system is in place! It can be altered to add an additional incentive to abandon the 0 mot duelling route. The exact numbers can easily be changed, the motivation floor can be raised to 10% or higher, motivation can affect money below a certain point, and the list goes on. I sincerely thank the people who have contributed with ideas like this and who are truly interested in assisting the process of making this a well rounded update.

Job KOs were a flaw in the system. It's good to see that most players can admit that even if they will miss not being able to use them. Be grateful that you've had them at your disposal for this long and be grateful that at least an attempt at positive progress has been made. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and I would be lying if I said I didn't expect a lot of heat in response to the job KO aspect of this update, but I wish people would look at the bigger picture. You can still avoid being duelled if you really want to. You don't get the benefits of being in a town without dealing with the consequences as well. Life doesn't work that way, neither does this game!

If players judged updates based on their merits rather than their own selfish desires, we could be so much more productive as a community. If we collaborated instead of arguing every time we have one of these discussion threads, who knows how the changes to the game may have been different over the last few years.

Anyway, I digress. Hopefully I've said everything that I wanted to say and won't need to rant again in this thread.
 

Deleted User - 1693871

Futu, we are a long way away from that golden age of duelling. This update is not going to bring it back.
 

DeletedUser22685

I'm well aware of that. I was merely using it as an example of the way duellers have been affected by the last few years' worth of updates as well as the fact that being unable to remain under constant duel protection doesn't have to be a bad thing.
 

Deleted User - 1693871

Definitely not a bad thing if you're one of the stat padders hoping for more targets, no.
 

DeletedUser22685

Definitely not a bad thing if you're one of the stat padders hoping for more targets, no.

Stat padders and people looking for more targets are two completely different things. The people who reach level 100+, respec to duelling and keep their motivation low have plenty of other duellers in their range even if they do have plenty of fort fighters as well. A lot of these people duel because they enjoy it and simply don't want to reach a duel level of 500 and have six available targets.

The stat padders are the ones who 0 mot duel at level 30-40 or even towards the 70s and have never challenged anybody holding a shiny weapon or with a positive W/L ratio. It's these ones who give 0 mot duellers a bad name.

For me this change isn't about making more targets available. It's about fixing a broken feature. I didn't have the slightest problem before 2.0 when people used to duel allies after a fort battle to get a KO and I won't have a problem if that practice becomes popular again. The fact that this "feature" exists is just laughable IMO.
 
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Deleted User - 1693871

Yes, it's laughable that zero motivation in jobs gets you no money or experience, but gets you full money in duels.

Make the money decrease at the same rate as the experience points in duels, same as it does in jobs.

And as others have said, changing the duel motivation so it resets to 100% each day would also sort this issue.

But in return, the energy needed to queue a duel could be reduced from 12 to 6, just as jobs were reduced from 24 to 12. That would give players the option to queue a lot more duels from one lot of energy.
 

DeletedUser22685

Yes, it's laughable that zero motivation in jobs gets you no money or experience, but gets you full money in duels.

Make the money decrease at the same rate as the experience points in duels, same as it does in jobs.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I've always been in favour of this system, even in 2009 when it was changed and a whole bunch of 0 mots started a riot. It doesn't change the fact that job KOs are just as illogical. Both are bugs that were fixed and then re-implemented after players complained. Since when were bugfixes reverted because people enjoyed exploiting the bug? This whole situation could have been avoided IMO if people weren't given the chance to get used to 0 mot duelling with no penalties and then get used to job KOing. The rest of your post contains some ideas with definite potential as well.

Diggo posted in the Beta forums what I think is a great compromise that benefits both parties. Might be worth looking at if you're not in favour of the current proposed changes: http://forum.beta.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=30242&postcount=77
 
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Diggo11

Well-Known Member
Even those running the game seem uncertain about some of the game mechanics. This, also Diggo on Beta wasn't aware that the experience, luck and money bonuses from sets are applied at the end of jobs, not when you queue them.
I know very well thank you very much, I was being careful not to put my foot in my mouth because I wasn't 100% certain. I now use jobs for powerlevelling at low levels without nice gear, around about where zero mots are ironically; done high level jobs back in the W3 days, been there done that, boring.
 

Deleted User - 1693871

Thanks for the link to Diggo's post on Beta, Futu.

"We were thinking about this a bit more tonight. Here is our thought: duel protection is extended from 48 hours to 72 hours. Duel protection can be cancelled after the first 24 hours by initiating a duel, which only costs one energy point. Obviously an additional day without losing several hours to sleep is beneficial for workers, plus there is a full 48 hours grace period in which to knock yourself out cheaply before you are re-exposed."

It is an interestingly sweetener. Though it also benefits duellers a lot, who can start duelling again just 24 hours after a KO, not the current 48 hours. Perhaps it would be more interesting if the KO time was 24 hours/1 week, not 24/72. Then duellers could get back to business more quickly against each other, the rest would have more peace.
 

DeletedUser

Thanks for the link to Diggo's post on Beta, Futu.

It is an interestingly sweetener. Though it also benefits duellers a lot, who can start duelling again just 24 hours after a KO, not the current 48 hours. Perhaps it would be more interesting if the KO time was 24 hours/1 week, not 24/72. Then duellers could get back to business more quickly against each other, the rest would have more peace.

I would rather see 48/72 or 48/96.

I think a week is too long.

I also don't think the minimum should be reduced below 48 hours. If you get a posse together to KO a dueler who is repeatedly sitting on one of your alliance/town mates, 24 hours is not a long enough deterrent. I think 48 hours is better in these cases.
 

DeletedUser

Removing job KO protection is logical from duelling point of view, but looking at it from a complete non-dueller's perspective; a dueller who spends most if not all of his energy in duels is not in danger of getting KO'd from a job (the job spot won't come to him and take his health away from the job danger) but a non-dueller who spends all of his energy in jobbing and gets KO'd from a job CAN be KO'd again from a duel and therein lies the possibility that he lost all his health and energy again just after he healed for 8 hours. Duellers don't even have to lose health (or only a small amount) in duels if they only target non-duellers even with the latter's best gear.

I agree with zd that "complaining about duelling is like a player complaining about Tribal Wars that his/her village is in danger of being attacked". Duelling is a part of a the game as much as anything else and everyone should play by taking into account that they can duelled anytime anywhere (like somewhat in the real Wild West in those times). From this perspective, removing job KO protection is very logical; but then more balancing needs to be done when KO means losing all your energy because duellers certainly have an advantage KO wise.

On another point, I also agree with Reyne that a player who wants to opt out of one aspect of the game like duelling shouldn't be forced to leave town to do it which would cause him to lose several other aspects of the game. Social interaction is key in a multiplayer game and town/alliance chat and forums are of more importance than people give them credit for. Also 20% banking fees as against 4%, and paying everytime you visit a hotel (except 2 or 4 levels for adventurers) is not insignificant especially for non-premium.
 

DeletedUser36559

Nice to see a lot of players will get bans for getting xp while taking turns KO'ing alliance members.
 

DeletedUser

Nice to see a lot of players will get bans for getting xp while taking turns KO'ing alliance members.

Well, apparently it isn't considered pushing anymore, as long as that isn't your primary intention. Let's do it when it comes mate :)
 

DeletedUser

They are gonna have to set up camps for people to sleep - I can see there ebing LOADS more ghost towns - I dont know where you think that everyone in the reall west wass duelled cos everyone woulda been killed some folk did die of old age - I still think there should be a kind of opt out for those who dont want to duel or those who just want a break from the possibility but hey that would upset the duelers wouldnt it cant have that
 

DeletedUser34295

I'm not really sure where I stand in the question of whether job KO should be a thing or not, I do however think that the timing for this update is bad. With that I mean:

I can understand if the intention of the game was that you had to choose between being in a city and then have the possibility of getting duelled, or not be in a city and thus be safe from duellers. HOWEVER, due to/thanks to the job KO "option/bug" a lot of people (and yes, I believe it's a great lot of people) have already joined towns, made friends, made alliances, made a name for themselves, possibly even made second homes online if you will, and I DON'T believe it's fair to have that removed from them.

This update should've come from the very beginning when the bug/whatever-to-call it was found, so that this wouldn't have happened. In this given situation, I don't think removing the job KO is a great way to go, seeing how many people it will affect. I believe the negative effect on people in towns who use this trick/bug/exploit/way will be bigger than the positive effect this specific part of the update will have for duellers. Therefore, I say it's a bad idea.
 

DeletedUser29831

24 hours KO-time for a dueller is too little, IMO. If you are a dueller and get KO'ed, that should hurt. Especially if you are a bully who finally lost. But I really like the extended KO-time idea. If I can stay protected for 72 hours, that will realy sweeten the job ko loss.
As for the rest, what I really would like to see, was some way to get more variation in the duels. As it is, everyone basicly got the same gear and same guns, although the new sets have loosened that up some for high level players.

And come on, Inno has tried to make the game better. Either it works for you or not, I see that as positive. And if you think Inno has more love for duellers than others, well, you might rethink.
 

DeletedUser

Sigh... So much angst against being dueled... So what's the big deal? Getting KO'ed and losing your virtual money? Big deal, you get ko'ed, you get 2 days off to make that money back. Is it about the time/efficiency loss? Yeah, THAT I can understand, so take steps to protect yourself accordingly:

1. Become a resist player - No one person, heck no 10 people can ever KO you.
2. Go all dodge - You'll hardly ever get hit
3. Just go and aggressively duel other players once or twice, while naked, and when it suits you - bingo, KO protection under your own T&C.
4. Go townless - not great but it's doable. With chat it's not like the social aspect is killed. Just means you need to be clever about banking your money. OR, just bank your money every 5 days with the free nuggets you get.
5. Go Forting, it protects you for most of the hours of the day if thus inclined.

Anyways people, it's just dueling your character for a potentially small loss, potentially small gain. It's not actually something that will imbalance your life... :)

Good luck!
 
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