Dueller class needs to nerfed.

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
Thanks to insane hit chances with Mosey/Union officer bs, 6-7 crits per Dueler in one battle is very common nowadays.

Insane.
Especially when considering Damages already being high enough without a Critic.

Think about it (Heh.. if they ever do..) :
With Livingston set a Soldier might get 20-25k something Hp right.

But even if the guy has the "Nugget Bear" on, high level damagers with Union's ridiculous damage bonus (& Leaders..t amplifier) will hit at least 1.4k damage per hit, and thats not critic.

So 18 successful leaders..t hits kills you anyway. With 0 critics.
Sounds very "balanced" gam eh?
 
Last edited:

Bucksnort Hawkins

Well-Known Member
And give new bonus to Adventurers, because sleeping for free has become quite useless :D
Actually Junkz, I have to correct you there. The Adventurer's ability to sleep for free fattens them up quicker for easier, faster access to being demolished again by Damagers* in a more efficient manner.

* Note in the modern context of the game only two classes exist, the Damager class and the Rest (that serve no real purpose), Thanks Diggo!
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
Thanks Diggo
Don't think he has anything to do with this. He was told to deal with Html5 battles and so he did, which is what we praise him for.

Hopefully he be done with its bugs and all soon and finally be able to work on some balancing at last :)
Well, if Inno/his boss lets him.
 

Bucksnort Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Don't think he has anything to do with this. He was told to deal with Html5 battles and so he did, which is what we praise him for.

Hopefully he be done with its bugs and all soon and finally be able to work on some balancing at last :)
Well, if Inno/his boss lets him.
No it was he along with Victor Kruger that tinkered with the fort fighting formula in the mod/dev world (world X) battles in response to what everyone at the time was angry about: Tank HP inflation (circa 2011-12). This is the end result we are at now with insane Damage inflation and Inno not addressing any other aspect of the battle formulae.
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
No it was he along with Victor Kruger that tinkered with the fort fighting formula in the mod/dev world (world X) battles in response to what everyone at the time was angry about: Tank HP inflation (circa 2011-12). This is the end result we are at now with insane Damage inflation and Inno not addressing any other aspect of the battle formulae.
Most of this is misinformation, Diggo's the best thing that happened to this game (and the first great fort battle balance patch was a success in my opinion (can't remember if Vic was still on the beta team at that point)), but sadly for all of us he doesn't make the decisions about which features to develop or balance, and he has precisely zero input on tombola items.

* Note in the modern context of the game only two classes exist, the Damager class and the Rest (that serve no real purpose), Thanks Diggo!
Thanks etriel, are the words you are looking for here. I'm all for Inno-bashing in 2019 in the context of The West development, but at least bash the right person :p
 
Last edited:

Bucksnort Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Most of this is misinformation, Diggo's the best thing that happened to this game (and the first great fort battle balance patch was a success in my opinion (can't remember if Vic was still on the beta team at that point)), but sadly for all of us he doesn't make the decisions about which features to develop or balance, and he has precisely zero input on tombola items.


Thanks etriel, are the words you are looking for here. I'm all for Inno-bashing in 2019 in the context of The West development, but at least bash the right person :p

"and the first great fort battle balance patch was a success in my opinion"

lulu you are contradicting yourself. So you admit he did implement the new damage formula that have led us to this state of affairs today? Then how is anything I'm saying misinformed? That was in fact what you call "the first great fort battle patch". That is certainly subjective! I'm sorry but he and Kruger did test that patch. They did come up with it and Diggo implemented it.

Maybe you are correct about Diggo's influence on sets, but I never said a word about that. I said specifically he adjusted the damage formula to counteract what was perceived at the time as "too much HP" for Soldiers, et al.

If anything the new sets are perpetuating and expanding the original problem that was set in motion with Diggo's patch. Now I will concede that he had no way of knowing how that would happen 7-8 years later. If that is what you are saying I agree with that.

Regardless, now we are at the opposite side of the spectrum. Having even 30K HP is meaningless if 2-3 Damagers are on average hitting a single target an depleting 50%+ the targets HP in one round. Seriously, no point in playing any other class now unless doing things outside of Fort Fights is fun to you.

That's broken game mechanics, pure and simple. What's infuriating is as RaiderTr said: the Union Set. It's clear with the sale of that set Inno is 100% aware of all this and their answer is: "Let's profit off of this some more. Here: Buy this set and do even more damage and hit more frequently."
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
I was part of the team, as were others, wasn't just Vic and Diggo. Actual players who were both experienced battle leaders and had an active interest in making battles as good as they can be were involved. As well as feedback from the entire beta community (you can still find the threads on the forums there if you are interested). Today none of the community managers seem to play the game, etriel certainly doesn't play, no one knows a thing about the game they are running other than a select few who stay quiet because speaking up gets you fired.

The formula was balanced at the time both attack and defence had about the same chances of winning, then the leadership sets started getting out of control recently, around about the time etriel took the reigns i would say.

I agree with you, the game is a broken mess. Diggo likely agrees with you, the game is a broken mess, he's not allowed to try to fix it, and he doesn't even play it anymore.
 
Last edited:

Slygoxx

The West Team
Marshal
Alright, so, when you say we need to nerf the duller class, how would you propose we do that?
 

Bucksnort Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I agree with you, the game is a broken mess. Diggo likely agrees with you, the game is a broken mess, he's not allowed to try to fix it, and he doesn't even play it anymore.
Ok. Well, I'm not at all comfortable approaching etriel. This really needs to be addressed with the devs she's in touch with that she buffers the rest of the world from. I supposed then this is a kuro thing.
 

Bucksnort Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Alright, so, when you say we need to nerf the duller class, how would you propose we do that?
I'm not a game designer. I don't have privy to the code itself. But what I see is that damage is calculated based on the total HP of the target. As such, new sets like the Union Set seem to be directly affording greater and greater variable values in terms of how that percentage is calculated. As such the possible HP totals of Soldiers or any other class that even go full Strength with AP and full Hit Points with SP can't keep up with these new greater variable values. So if 2-3 Duellers/Damagers are hitting with crticals for 2600+ damage in one round. That's easily 50% of any given targets HP.

I suppose the options are:

  1. Reduce the chance for criticals.
  2. Change the damage forumla.
  3. Consider some new way to define "ghosting" so that it can be addressed via skill/attribute point allocations and/or gear selection.
  4. Change the HP bonus for Soldiers to keep up <--- I don't care for this as many games out there suffer from HP scale creep and it's ruined those games (Ex. LOTRO).
  5. Stop catering to the broken situation by including new sets that enhance Damagers with increased chance to hit and damage.
  6. Make Resistance tied to skill/attribute point allocations not just gear choices.
I'm sure wiser, more experienced players have more concrete ideas to propose.
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
Well, it's not a "Class" problem only and I already had lots of Suggestions back in the day.

Not all are about Damages but majority is.
https://forum.the-west.net/index.php?threads/balancing-fort-battles.58279

This will be repeating myself but I don't mind as long as someone in charge hears and actually cares about it:
> Main issue is the Formula as it has been mentioned hundreds of times, but not the only issue.
The main issue with the formula is that, it's not only amplifies the Weapon damage, but all the Bonuses as well. Especially "Sector Damage bonus" gets doubled, more or less.

> Extreme Nugget damager sets like Union Officer.
Everything is extreme about it. Compare with 'unupgradeble' , 'No Defense/Hp' "Nugget Bear" and see for yourself.

> Extreme Hit chances with the sets like Union, and Phoebe Mosey.

> The way "Rewarding" works. It's based on Damages for the most part.
No wonder why majority is Damagers nowadays eh?

> The way Resistance works
It's effecting the game more than one thinks.

First, it kills the enthusiasm of the Low-Mid level range players towards the Fort Fights as they don't really do any damage.
Which directly effects the Attendance.

Second, it's becoming irrelevant after some certain level of Damagers. They will hit you like a truck no matter what. Yep, even with "Nugget bear" , as I said on my first reply.

Both issues could be fixed or at least helped a lot by making it "Percentage based"
 
Last edited:

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
Alright, so, when you say we need to nerf the duller class, how would you propose we do that?
IMO the very top priority for this game's development should be how much damage is being dealt with every shot by leadership players in fort battles. Tanks can't last a single round on a tower with LOS on a decent number of attackers anymore and adventurers barely do better with the ghosting ability, which severely limits tactical options to bailing inside and trying not to get shot until the attackers mount all the towers. Not exactly an exciting or engaging strategy that will keep players coming back for more.

I think a multiple pronged solution is needed for this issue. Resistance could be a lot more useful if it were a percentage based damage reduction, instead of a flat bonus with no diminishing returns where having enough HP to take some shots reduces your resistance to virtually nothing. if high leadership damagers do about 1.8k damage per regular shot, i'd like to be able to resist at least some of that, but i have 173 resistance in Livingston set, the brand new, top of the line tank set.
Speaking of diminishing returns, increase them somehow for the damage formula. Pure tank isn't a viable option, but pure damager is.
Additional tower bonuses for defenders, possibly allowing a well-skilled tank to last for 1 round could be given.
People have suggested that crit chance should be reduced, I'd argue only the premium version of that ability is overpowered.

Of course the nuclear option for damage, and my favourite by far, and i'm sorry to say probably very necessary in conjunction with other measures, is re-balancing the tombola and nugget sets that are responsible, bringing us back to the realm of reality in terms of power creep, removing the double bonus from UO set and making it so that every sector doesn't have a sector damage bonus anymore.

Of course, these are only taking the dueller class into consideration, the other classes have their own issues, workers don't miss shots, advents don't ghost and extra HP can be and is a disadvantage for the soldier :D
 
Last edited:

r35barker

Member
Honestly you don't have to nerf the dueler class, just enhance the stats of the tanks and advents. if you're an advent you're around 12k HP on average, if you get hit with a mild crit of we'll say 1800 2x's you're down 1/3rd your HP. Give the tanks more HP and make dodge a thing again and please do it without it being a buy this special gear at this sale event!!!!111!!!!!.
 

Sjeesje

Member
I think it's funny that almost everybody is focussing that hard on the dueller class, even though the chance of a critical hit, with premium, is "only" 20%.
It doesn't matter what class you are, dueller, worker, soldier or even adventurer can hit 1,8k in a single hit, if they are equiped with the proper gear and full leadership.

That's why I agree more with Raider, there should be put more focus on rebalancing the damage formula and as said above, resistance could be percentage based.
 

Bucksnort Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I think it's funny that almost everybody is focussing that hard on the dueller class, even though the chance of a critical hit, with premium, is "only" 20%.
It doesn't matter what class you are, dueller, worker, soldier or even adventurer can hit 1,8k in a single hit, if they are equiped with the proper gear and full leadership.

That's why I agree more with Raider, there should be put more focus on rebalancing the damage formula and as said above, resistance could be percentage based.
Sorry I have NEVER seen or heard of an advent hitting for 1800. Duellers are however currently hitting for a lot more (like 2500+ HP) and a hell of a lot more frequently that 20% of the time. There are other factors involved that must be increasing their chances to land a critical hit.

The fact that there are any players of this game can't see that the Dueller class is far more favored by the current game mechanics than any of the other three classes is beyond me.
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
Sorry I have NEVER seen or heard of an advent hitting for 1800
I have. Duelers or Workers (nor Soldiers) don't have any Class bonus that increasing their damage so any "Full Charisma - Full Leaders-t" Adventurer will hit the same damage with the same gear.

Of course it's awkward because they neither have the Worker hit chance bonus nor Critical hit of Duelers but that doesn't effect their damage.
There are other factors involved that must be increasing their chances to land a critical hit
Highly doubt it, but only Devs would know for certain..

The issue with that is the extremely High hit ratios thanks to sets like Union crap or Deputy chef/Mosey.
So they do more Crits as well..
 
Last edited:

Sjeesje

Member
Sorry I have NEVER seen or heard of an advent hitting for 1800. Duellers are however currently hitting for a lot more (like 2500+ HP) and a hell of a lot more frequently that 20% of the time. There are other factors involved that must be increasing their chances to land a critical hit.

The fact that there are any players of this game can't see that the Dueller class is far more favored by the current game mechanics than any of the other three classes is beyond me.
As far as I know criticals have almost always been part of the fort fighting and al out of a sudden it has become a problem for you?
The criticals aren't the problem, the amount of damage being dealt by doesn't matter what class is.
And criticals of 2500 are rookie numbers tbh :p

Regarding what I said about adventurers is pretty simple, but I don't need to explain it because Raider already did it.
Maybe the reason you have never seen an adventurer hit 1,8k is because it's higly unusual for an adventurer to skill leadership and waste tons of nuggets on the union due to the lack of class bonusses.