Duel Changes

chaotious

Member
I know this might have been brought up before, and i realize that a lot of people may at first be objected towards this idea, BUT i think that melee vs. ranged dueling needs a revamp.
I believe that the first half of a duel between melee and ranged, the ranged player should have an aiming/dodging boost. BUT for the second half of a melee vs. ranged duel, the melee player should have an aim/dodge boost.
This would have a more "real" feel to duels, if you consider that a knife at a gunfight is idiotic.
BUT a living person with a knife, who is inside the range of a pistol, would be able to inflict different damage based on close quarters fighting.
I realize this could take a while to even consider, but it would add a different element to the game, that might keep veteran players such as myself, from quitting due to the edge you all have given melee duelers(by which i mean that all melee weapons have duel stats, all ranged weapons have stats towards anything other than dueling). That makes melee have an edge over ranged. Even if you all didn't notice it at first(or if you did), taking a knife to a gunfight has long been considered an act of idiocy.
Please at least think this over, and even possibly hold a vote, before just saying, "this would not work".
 

Big John1970

It's a good idea, but it would require a bit of extra programming and Inno's mantra is, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

Post-edit: It's like the idea to change the fireworks/hearts etc from sending once every 24H to once per day, no matter the time. Passed to developers, would have required the tiniest amount of programming, but it never materialised. :(
 

futurama1001

Well-Known Member
When I started reading I expected this to be another one of those "melee could never beat ranged" whine threads, but it's actually something that could be moderately interesting. Keep in mind though that there have been duel system updates advertised, so I don't think there's much point in trying to come up with improvements until we've seen what those updates will entail.
 

chaotious

Member
I agree with you futurama. It is just an idea i had for dueling a long time ago that i decided to go ahead and submit.
 

deiben

Well-Known Member
If it ever came to a vote regarding that in a range vs melee duel that range gets an aim/dodge boost in the first two rounds while melee gets a similar boost in the last two rounds, I'd seriously consider voting in favor of it.

Just make sense relative to an actual gun vs knife duel.
 

Diggo11

InnoGames
Seems a bit unfairly advantageous to ranged duellers, who'll have relatively more chance of securing a knockout before melee duellers get their boosted rounds off. Then again, the increase in ranged duellers who go from surviving by the skin of their teeth to getting KOed would probably be greater.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

Well-Known Member
Seems a bit unfairly advantageous to ranged duellers, who'll have relatively more chance of securing a knockout before melee duellers get their boosted rounds off. Then again, the increase in ranged duellers who go from surviving by the skin of their teeth to getting KOed would probably be greater.
That's a pretty good point, but I think it wouldn't have as much of an adverse effect you'd think. Most melee duelers are strength focused, so they can afford to take a few shots, but a low health ranged dueler can't hand the end of round advantage. Just my take
 

Micky12

Well-Known Member
It is a tricky situation letting the melee dueler get the advantage in the last 2 rounds and stances will play a huge part in whether or not the range dueler gets KO'ed or not.
 

chaotious

Member
I understand the advantages/disadvantages to both ranged and melee duelers. I personally prefer ranged, and realize that this would put the pressure on me to do better both in stance, and in placement of skills.
This was an old thought that i had, that seems more relevant now, with more powerful weapons available, and also possibly to even the odds a bit on melee advantaged dueling weapons.


Reference for advantage of weapons:
War Club(melee weapon) = +vigor(dueling skill)
Silver mounter knife(melee) = +HP(skill useful in dueling but not specific to dueling)
Nickel plated tomahawk(melee) = +toughness(also useful but not specific to dueling)

Pocket deringer(ranged) = +repairing(nothing to do with dueling)
Colt dragoon(ranged) = +HP(useful in but not specific to dueling)
Navy revolver(ranged) = +leadership(nothing to do with dueling)


I didn't make this thread just to complain about skill placement on weapons, as I am fairly successful as a ranged dueler. Just pointing it out in case nobody else has(i am sure i am not the first). I made this thread as a way to get an idea out there, and see if it could be constructed into something interesting.
Anyway, i appreciate everyone's time for reading. :)
 

Introvert Mj

Toughness is a dueling skill for melee duelers, so the sharp nickel plated tomahawk has a lot of users. Its a beast when upgraded.
 

CrOoKedSmiLE

Well-Known Member
Toughness is a dueling skill for melee duelers, so the sharp nickel plated tomahawk has a lot of users. Its a beast when upgraded.
One should not forget that the dragoon colt has a massive damage range compared to melee weapons. The best melee weapon to upgrade is the nickel plated tomahawk which at level 5 will have something like 176-200 damage. The colt dragoon 113-240 damage. So while the NPT has a greater average damage, the colt dragoon is able to smash out some ridiculous damage when buffed + headshot. So a melee dueller is likely never able to grab a towns mort over a ranged duellist using an upgraded prec colt dragoon. (least in my experience)
 

chaotious

Member
One should not forget that the dragoon colt has a massive damage range compared to melee weapons. The best melee weapon to upgrade is the nickel plated tomahawk which at level 5 will have something like 176-200 damage. The colt dragoon 113-240 damage. So while the NPT has a greater average damage, the colt dragoon is able to smash out some ridiculous damage when buffed + headshot. So a melee dueller is likely never able to grab a towns mort over a ranged duellist using an upgraded prec colt dragoon. (least in my experience)
I don't know what server you play on, BUT in briscoe(the server i play most), the highest single hit damage in ANY mortician is by a melee dueler, with a melee weapon. 813. on a head shot, and doing 3k+damage in 3-4 hits by melee duelers... I dont see any ranged duelers, even with high shooting and headshots against players with 0 reflex, doing over 680ish damage(so far i have been able to get up to 683 on headshots with a level 5 precise colt navy revolver


EDIT: On that 813 headshot by a melee dueler, it was done with a level 3 boones axe. Level 5 boones axe goes up to 300 damage... According to support tickets, on a headshot, with no resist, there is a possibility of doing 3X weapon damage, and add the 50 top end damage from a polishing stone, and you have a weapon capable of doing 1050 headshots. NONE of the ranged weapons will get within 150 damage of that.
I also have to point out, that the newest "dueling sets" were specifically made to give melee the edge. WHY IN THE WORLD does melee get 30% more XP on everything, and ranged duelers get just a bit of speed??? I can't get more than 2715xp per duel against people the same duel level as me, where as people wearing eastwoods set get over 4k and closer to 5k xp on duels!

So, mix the highest max damage, with higher default hit points from AP placement on melee build, the fact that no ranged weapons are capable of keeping up with the damage, the added skill placement on weapons, a circumstantial difference in possible experience, and the resistance all at the same time, and what you get is a VERY inadequate dueling system. Built for melee.
 
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l8dygaga

Well-Known Member
Just fyi: max possible hit is 940.. would be sick to see, cant imagine anyone collecting that many boones axes though. But lets say a level 4 boones, that'd be a max hit of 885
 

chaotious

Member
Just fyi: max possible hit is 940.. would be sick to see, cant imagine anyone collecting that many boones axes though. But lets say a level 4 boones, that'd be a max hit of 885
According to support:
A player "using an upgraded Harper's axe, with a damage range of 39-260. Using a polishing stone, this was further increased to 69-310.

The maximum possible damage with a headshot is 3x the maximum damage of the weapon, which makes it 930 in this case. If resistance is equal to the vigor of the opponent, it'll be 1.5x the maximum damage, 465 with this weapon.

As the vigor of the attacker was higher than the total resistance of the defender, the maximum possible damage starts to drift towards the 930.

Respectfully,

Slygoxx"

I didn't find in the-west wiki in the rules on dueling that the "max possible hit is 940". The level 3 boones axe is capable of 930 damage on a headshot. IF 940 were the "max damage", there would be no point at all in ANYBODY making a lvl 5 boones axe.
 

Anny Hudson

Well-Known Member
According to support:
A player "using an upgraded Harper's axe, with a damage range of 39-260. Using a polishing stone, this was further increased to 69-310.

The maximum possible damage with a headshot is 3x the maximum damage of the weapon, which makes it 930 in this case. If resistance is equal to the vigor of the opponent, it'll be 1.5x the maximum damage, 465 with this weapon.

As the vigor of the attacker was higher than the total resistance of the defender, the maximum possible damage starts to drift towards the 930.

Respectfully,

Slygoxx"

I didn't find in the-west wiki in the rules on dueling that the "max possible hit is 940". The level 3 boones axe is capable of 930 damage on a headshot. IF 940 were the "max damage", there would be no point at all in ANYBODY making a lvl 5 boones axe.
I don't know how it's said the max possible damage is 3x the max damage of the weapon. It's supposed to be 2.625x the max damage of the weapon. (1.75 x 1.5)

So for a level 3 harper's Axe, with damage range 39-260 and polishing stone, it would be a damage range of 69-310. Now 310 x 2.625 = 813.75 ~ 814. That's the max hit possible with the axe.

Now for a level 5 Boone's Axe with damage range 53-308 and polishing stone, it would be a damage range of 83-358. Now 358 x 2625 = 939.75 ~ 940.

So techincally a Max hit of 940 is possible with a level 5 Boone's Axe, while in the case of a Level 3 Harper's Axe a max Hit of 814 is possible.
 

chaotious

Member
I don't know how it's said the max possible damage is 3x the max damage of the weapon. It's supposed to be 2.625x the max damage of the weapon. (1.75 x 1.5)

So for a level 3 harper's Axe, with damage range 39-260 and polishing stone, it would be a damage range of 69-310. Now 310 x 2.625 = 813.75 ~ 814. That's the max hit possible with the axe.

Now for a level 5 Boone's Axe with damage range 53-308 and polishing stone, it would be a damage range of 83-358. Now 358 x 2625 = 939.75 ~ 940.

So techincally a Max hit of 940 is possible with a level 5 Boone's Axe, while in the case of a Level 3 Harper's Axe a max Hit of 814 is possible.


No offense, but I will listen to the mods when they tell me the damage possible, not players. That quote in my last post is directly from a support ticket response(after a LOT of talking back and forth).
Thank you for replying tho.
 

Anny Hudson

Well-Known Member
If you read the wiki properly you wouldn't have said that or wouldn't even contacted support to know about this. Support answers from mods can be wrong sometimes. (No offence, mods :laugh:) But it's not my duty to make people know how the formula works. Actually it's good for me that there are people who don't read wiki pages. Makes my gameplay vs them easier ;)
 

l8dygaga

Well-Known Member
Max hit of 3x weapon damage is rather old. Resistance used to be able to reduce damage to 0 and the max bonus was +100% (2x multiplier). That's what allowed a max hit of 3x weapon damage on a headshot (at the time max hit was 345 with a precise buntline). Later on, max resistance became 50/75% and a few updates later max damage bonus became +75% as well.

Any chance that ticket is an old one? Before 2.0 even?
 

Anzian

Well-Known Member
If you read the wiki properly you wouldn't have said that or wouldn't even contacted support to know about this. Support answers from mods can be wrong sometimes. (No offence, mods :laugh:) But it's not my duty to make people know how the formula works. Actually it's good for me that there are people who don't read wiki pages. Makes my gameplay vs them easier ;)
I would not put much faith in the Wiki... not much about the 3% motivation-limit there... or the upgrading system... or the sets that have come for around a year... :blink: