Duel Changes

DeletedUser35903

The dueling is slowly, but progressively getting more regulated and worse.
That's how things work, slowly.
Face it Dueling is over.
Changing the subject to the topic of the honor system is laughable.
There have always been options to keep from being dueled, always!!
Buy ap/sp duelers, inno will like that, because thats your only option now.
 

DeletedUser36559

People will fully upgraded duel gear + extra AP/SP from nuggets will keep getting dishonorable duels for any duel they do, unless they duel someone 20+ levels above them.
 

DeletedUser35903

The upgrade system was supposed to bring the free players advantages, another major fail. The event items should not be able to be upgraded.
The dishonorable duels ranking advantage goes to the towns who don't duel at all.

This has all been hashed out in beta, the primary concern is the zero motivation duelers and the amount of complaints that inno has to deal with regarding this issue.
 
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DeletedUser32747

I'll either reskill to fort fighter or quit the game, I don't like being forced to play someone else's game.!

You have the same idea as 70% of the people i have talked to.
I myself have considered quitting this game, because of them forcing you to play a certain way.

Problem is, FFing is a joke these days too...

The only thing, ONLY THING, keeping me in this game, is the players... Kinda sad that one of my favorite browser games has reduced itself to a glorified chat engine..
 

DeletedUser35903

Maybe inno is getting of maintaining Thewest game?
Otherwise, why would they purposefully ruin it?
 
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DeletedUser35120

Maybe inno is getting tired of maintaining the west game?
Otherwise, why would they intentionally ruin it?

Why do you think Inno ruined the game with these changes, why exactly do you think so?
 

DeletedUser35903

1. Duel xp means that higher player level duelers can duel you.
2. It was fun setting up the duelers within the Alliance as protectors and hunting the dud duelers.
3. The changes reflect a mindset of a group that sees dueling as an unnecessary burden in the game play.
4. The melee duelers now have more skill points applied, which are in reality are FF tanks.

Imagine if fort fighting worked the same way,
As you win FF's, your FF level goes up, though it's capped at 450.
You have to lose FF's to lower your FF level.
But if your FF motivation is 100%, your FF level goes up 1 level per FF win.
Eventually you would only be able to shoot at 6 people, and the lower player levels would be shooting at such high levels, based on their FF level, they would never hit them. They would have to buy ap/sp to keep fort fighting to hit anyone. That would be fair since the duelers now have to, or reskill.

Or a worker,
As you build, your worker level goes up, which reduces your ability to gain construction points, you have to buy and upgrade to keep points high for the build, or buy ap/sp to maintain the points needed by raising your worker skills.
The higher your worker level is the more upgrades you have to do to maintain reasonable points to make working worth it. Fair since the duelers now have to buy ap/sp, or reskill.

Jobs,
Imagine a job level, where every job you do it levels and becomes more difficult, requiring you to use upgrades or buy ap/sp to maintain the ability to keep doing the job. Fair since the duelers now have to buy ap/sp, or reskill.

All of these are good ideas and fair, since that is what the duelers now have to do to keep dueling.
5. This is discrimination against the duelers., forcing them to reskill or buy ap/sp to continue dueling.
Make it fair by forcing everybody to reskill or buy ap/sp, or just get rid of dueling and get it over with.

I'm still deciding what I'm going to do here, I might just do jobs for money and place bounties on workers and FF'ers, lol.
But I'm not malicious, I like being a dueler and protecting the Alliance members from lazy malicious duelers.
ZMD's rock, that is what this is all about, ZMD.
Dueling level should be used only for ranking, but ranking based on win loss percentages would be better because the dud duelers could know who #1 really is.
 
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DeletedUser36979

1. Duel xp means that higher player level duelers can duel you.

Off course it will, and you will have to adapt and improve...

typical low-mot dueler whine... dueler that don't like to be dueled, but only want easy targets :blink:
 

DeletedUser

10% minimum, means, .... most duels will be against the lowest levels you can hit if you duel. Making it harder to find them, means, ,more players will quit. Bring back NPC lowering.
 

DeletedUser35120

1. Duel xp means that higher player level duelers can duel you.

Yea sure. I'm game. Why are you not? Where's that fear?

2. It was fun setting up the duelers within the Alliance as protectors and hunting the dud duelers.

You still can. And according to your own point, fort-fighters are well protected by the system now. So why use that point for and against suiting your needs whenever you feel like?

3. The changes reflect a mindset of a group that sees dueling as an unnecessary burden in the game play.

Bullying low-level workers being 0-motivation had to be addressed anyway. Bullying isn't taken well in both RL, and here in this game as well. 1000 wins to 1 losses. 1000 wins against workers. You feel great and think high about yourself and your dueling?

4. The melee duelers now have more skill points applied, which are in reality are FF tanks.

So are the 0 mots afraid to duel fort-fighters now even? They are that chicken-hearted? Oh my. Wow.

Imagine if fort fighting worked the same way,
As you win FF's, your FF level goes up, though it's capped at 450.
You have to lose FF's to lower your FF level.

It's a very very stupid comparison you brought up here really. FF's and duels are 2 different things altogether. Fort-fights involve more 200 people at the same time, while duels don't. But still, going by the non-sense comparison there, lets say our Fort-Fight level goes up. it reaches 450. What's the problem. There's not 1 Fort-fighter in a world, there are several, 100's and 100's of them. Their level goes up too. Right? So we can shoot each other anyway?

But if your FF motivation is 100%, your FF level goes up 1 level per FF win.
Eventually you would only be able to shoot at 6 people, and the lower player levels would be shooting at such high levels, based on their FF level, they would never hit them. They would have to buy ap/sp to keep fort fighting to hit anyone. That would be fair since the duelers now have to, or reskill.

I can't really understand what you're trying to say, please be clearer. And I hope the above answers your whining about fort-fighters anyway. And where is this buying ap/sp coming from?

Or a worker,
As you build, your worker level goes up, which reduces your ability to gain construction points, you have to buy and upgrade to keep points high for the build, or buy ap/sp to maintain the points needed by raising your worker skills.
The higher your worker level is the more upgrades you have to do to maintain reasonable points to make working worth it. Fair since the duelers now have to buy ap/sp, or reskill.

Jobs,
Imagine a job level, where every job you do it levels and becomes more difficult, requiring you to use upgrades or buy ap/sp to maintain the ability to keep doing the job. Fair since the duelers now have to buy ap/sp, or reskill.

It took me 10 minutes to get an idea of what you're trying to say.. But dude, your basic problem of understanding lies in the fact that you're not the only dueler who is affected. Every single 0 mot. dueler has been affected. So if your duel level goes up, the other duelers' duel level goes up too. And you'll never run down to having a few specific targets. And why do you keep saying duelers have to buy ap/sp? What's your point there?

All of these are good ideas and fair, since that is what the duelers now have to do to keep dueling.

Beating your own drum, I see. Eh. No these are basically ideas which make no sense, and are nothing but rants.

5. This is discrimination against the duelers., forcing them to reskill or buy ap/sp to continue dueling.
Make it fair by forcing everybody to reskill or buy ap/sp, or just get rid of dueling and get it over with.

Again, the same thing with buying AP/SPs, something I don't understand what you're trying to say. Why do you necessarily need to buy AP/SP's to duel?

I'm still deciding what I'm going to do here, I might just do jobs for money and place bounties on workers and FF'ers, lol.

Have fun if that gives you pleasure. :)

But I'm not malicious, I like being a dueler and protecting the Alliance members from lazy malicious duelers.

And according to your own point, fort-fighters are well protected by the system now. So why use that point for and against suiting your needs whenever you feel like?

ZMD's rock, that is what this is all about, ZMD.

I would rather say, ZBD, Zero Balls Duelers. No balls at all face duelers.

Dueling level should be used only for ranking, but ranking based on win loss percentages would be better because the dud duelers could know who #1 really is.

If you really think the exp duelers don't really deserve the rank 1 spot, you can come up to their level and challenge them to your heart's content. Show them what you're made up of. And if the exp duel rankings make no sense to you, and one is really desperate to be rank 1 just based on win/loss ratio - make a separate rankings table - "Top worker bashers of the world".
 
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DeletedUser36559

5. This is discrimination against the duelers., forcing them to reskill or buy ap/sp to continue dueling. Make it fair by forcing everybody to reskill or buy ap/sp, or just get rid of dueling and get it over with.

I don't know why you keep mentioning buy ap/sp.. you don't even need to buy extra ap/sp to win. I have bought no extra skills and haven't upgraded anything yet I still do decent against strong duelers with upgraded items/ extra skills. Inno is not forcing anyone to reskill or buy ap/sp they simply want duelers to duel other duelers.
 

DeletedUser20647

Bullying low-level workers being 0-motivation had to be addressed anyway. Bullying isn't taken well in both RL, and here in this game as well. 1000 wins to 1 losses. 1000 wins against workers. You feel great and think high about yourself and your dueling?
Hey come oooon.. nobody else can say they did that.

Full disclosure here: The only reason I don't do exp duels is because Innogames asked me not to. Apparently, I was making too many people quit the game. Knowing myself and what kind of monster dueler I am, I did as asked for the good of the game. Ask anyone in the know, they will confirm this.
 

DeletedUser35120

Hey come oooon.. nobody else can say they did that.

Full disclosure here: The only reason I don't do exp duels is because Innogames asked me not to. Apparently, I was making too many people quit the game. Knowing myself and what kind of monster dueler I am, I did as asked for the good of the game. Ask anyone in the know, they will confirm this.

I am not talking about anyone in specific.
 

DeletedUser37520

Yea sure. I'm game. Why are you not? Where's that fear?

Maybe a quick introduction could be in order before I start the actual text. I play on Fairbank here on .net and on the Swedish server Dakota. An extremely peaceful trading specced soldier on Fairbank and a ZMD dueler on Dakota. It's worth noticing that Swedish Dakota went from 0% to 10% in this update, and never had the update with 3%. There could also be some difference in attitude among the ZMD duelers on .net and .se which might make drive our opinions apart. It would of course have been more appropriate if I discussed this on the Swedish forums, but that forum is even more dead than this. First part of this text is about lumpy39us comment "1. Duel xp means that higher player level duelers can duel you" and the second part is more about the changes in general. Feel free to answer both parts.

Anyways, I completely agree with the point lumpy39us tried to make, but might have failed a little bit with. "1. Duel xp means that higher player level duelers can duel you" was to short of an explanation to describe the problem. If I look at my home town on Dakota I have a dueler that's in level 57 with a duel level of 119. This player were basically screwed. He loves to duel, but he gets his ass kicked by workers, questers and adventurers in dueling gear. Don't even get me started about duels against other duelers that just were 30-40 levels higher, but didn't duel as much and therefore didn't have as high duel level. The small story I told above pretty much explains why I chose to become a ZMD dueler. Was it because I was a coward? Didn't dare to face people that might be a little more powerful than I'm? No, absolutely not. I did it because I love to duel, and didn't want to repeatedly get crushed in a duel that I never actually had the slightest chance in. I've no problem what so ever with dueling other duelers of equal strength, they're probably my favorite type of duel since I actually have the chance to compare my strength with my equals and through that become stronger. ZMD dueling is simply a matter of survival, and I've to take that road to survive.

Over to the main changes this update brought to the game. For me there's three changes that have interested me the most, they're: "Duel motivation will never fall below 10%", "Players who have not initiated a duel in the past thirty days will be hidden from the dueling menu" and "Morticians will show an 'honor value' reflecting the skill of opponents you challenge". There's probably many that have been affected by the duel level limit on 450 for example, but I can't really say much about it since I'm not affected by it. I also think that most people think that it's a good changes, so there probably isn't much to discuss there.

The point of the first change (10% duel motivation minimum) was pretty clear. InnoGames wants to "gradually raise the duel level of zero motivation duelers on older worlds". The problem with this change is that it won't help particularly much in achieving this goal. Sure, it'll raise the duel level of ZMD duelers in the long run, but they'll still be able to keep it low by dueling people with a duel level lower than their own and this is also the first draw back of the change. InnoGames is effectively forcing ZMD duelers to duel players with a low duel level to keep their own duel level low. This will be a terrible blow to low level duelers (that duel for experience), questers, adventurers and so on. ZMD duelers will have to be cowards, forced by InnoGames. With 0% duel motivation we could pick and choose our target, it never mattered if the opponent had a duel level of 100 or 200, they all gave 0 experience when defeated.

The second change, hiding players that haven't dueled in 45 days from the duel screen for players with a duel motivation lower than 50%, is just lazy and an attempt by InnoGames to make it more uncomfortable for ZMD duelers. There's absolutely no point in doing this, other than just making it a little bit more tediously. I can still look through the saloon in a town to see how far it's to my opponents and challenge them through it. You're not saving many lives by doing this, just making lives worse. I would like to see this either removed, or implemented as a automation function.

The third change, honor value, is probably the most stupid change I've ever seen. Not only is it incredibly disturbing to have InnoGames and their code decide what's an honorable duel, it's also a very badly implemented system that can be exploited. Who are InnoGames to decide what's honorable and what's not? Is it honorable to duel the adventurer that knocked out my town member? Yes, it's. I don't give a whether or not they have placed their skill points on duel skills or have dueling gear. Harm my fellow citizens and you're dead. That's the honorable thing to do, and I don't like seeing InnoGames going around ting on things that I value dearly. I've dueled other duelers in a level pretty close to mine, and still gotten it registered as a dishonorable duel. I've also dueled people in full dueling gear, how should I know that they haven't placed their points on dueling skills? That should be their problem, not mine. It can also be exploited. I don't always know whether a person is a dueler or not, even questers often walks around in dueling gear. Now I can just find out by dueling them and see if I get a honorable or dishonorable duel. Well, at least if the system actually worked.

TL;DR: Most of the changes that this update brought with it will back fire. It'll not get better for the peaceful players, nor will it get better for the ZMD duelers. It's a bad update, for everyone. Honor system is probably the most idiotic thing I've experienced in a long time.
 

DeletedUser35903

Thanks for explaining this a little better.
The non duelers don't even consider the actual player level and the differences the duel level makes. On Dakota, before I realized what ZMD was, I defended my Alliance members. At player level 59, player level 120 was able to duel me and KO was guaranteed.

Most folks like to attack the messenger, and if your views don't match theirs their attacks can be very vicious, but generally without fact, because they are only concerned about their own views. Since day 1, anybody here can keep from being dueled and it's really simple, but that must be such a difficult task that the duelers need to be regulated so your play isn't burdened. I'll not play your game, I'm here to play mine, I also have a right to my views and to express them. Saying the duelers are whining, the first to whine has won, I'm just saying like it is, because the duelers know this is what it is.

To all who are not duelers, inno will protect you.
To the duelers, you will not even be able to accomplish your achievements now because your level will make it impossible or you will have to attack weak players to get them done.

As an Alliance leader,
Protecting the Members requires, duelers at all levels. A level 29 with a dueling level of 99 is effectively use less.
I think this needs to be explained since the obvious seems to escape most, Ap/Sp is awarded per player level, 1 ap and 3 sp per level. So a level 59 with a dueling level of 119 gives the opponent the chance of having 60 more Ap and 180 more sp. So to either reskill, buy ap/sp, or quit the game.
We have rules and policies for dueling, ie no dueling workers.
Only duel the offender in retaliation.
Get your achievements first.
I have conducted contests and this seemed to create some esprit de corp within the Alliance amongst the duelers.

It is up to the Alliances, through policies and constructive programs, to protect and beat the offenders to teach them a message. Though in the same inno could benefit from our advice also.
We dismiss duelers who violate our policies.
See we can make dueling a formidable task as well as can inno, would you rather be in charge, or do you need a babysitter?
Babysitter it is, in a world where everybody is a winner...

By the way, I knew annie was baiting me, very standard tactic.
Yes there are ways around these improvements and devices available, which there invent wouldn't be very nice, lol.
 

DeletedUser36979

...
I'll not play your game, I'm here to play mine...

I play InnoGames game, if you don't like that, make your own.
And be certain, when a playstyle cost the developers money, they will do something to counter that. Players quitting because of repeat attacks by bullies don't buy nuggets. :eek:

I think this needs to be explained since the obvious seems to escape most, Ap/Sp is awarded per player level, 1 ap and 3 sp per level. So a level 59 with a dueling level of 119 gives the opponent the chance of having 60 more Ap and 180 more sp. So to either reskill, buy ap/sp, or quit the game.

You forgot one vital option, level up to get more AP/SP... no need to buy anything, just adapt and improve, easy as that, and many have done it earlier, so it can be done :cool:


I don't understand the low-mots philosophy...
They want the opportunity to freeze their level, being able to bully the same easy targets, but they don't like that higher levels attack them. :hmf: Those higher levels use the same opportunity, freezing level and attacking lower leveled easy targets. To avoid that, level up!
If a player don't want to get attacked, dueling is probably the wrong line of work in this game...
 

DeletedUser35903

Assumptions,
All ZMD's attack low level targets.

As I also stated, our Alliances use our duelers to ward off the malicious duelers, it's our Alliance policy. We are trying to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
I love dueling, win or lose I still win, because of the experience and knowledge gained.
I personally think your Alliances must be weak and have weak leaders, afraid to implement policies and enforce them...
Strong Alliance policies and unity will keep the malicious duelers in check and busy, ZMD allows an Alliance to protect at all levels.
Since day 1 anyone can keep from being dueled.
 

DeletedUser35120

As I also stated, our Alliances use our duelers to ward off the malicious duelers, it's our Alliance policy. We are trying to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Strong Alliance policies and unity will keep the malicious duelers in check and busy, ZMD allows an Alliance to protect at all levels.
Since day 1 anyone can keep from being dueled.

You said:

The new dis-improvements have just ruined dueling anyways.

The dueling changes are designed to protect non-duelers, so non-dueling alliance members won't need protectors anymore.

Do I need to say anything more? You're contradicting your own points now, dude.
 

DeletedUser36979

We are trying to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

from the 2.28 update notes:
...
To combat zero motivation dueling we have implemented a wide variety of changes. We will closely monitor the dueling behavior and player feedback and implement adjustments where necessary.

Hard to be part of the solution and ZMD, when ZMD is the problem :blink:

The ZMD playstyle has a negative impact on the bottomline. It is all about the money! No money = no game!
 
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