DeletedUser
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DeletedUser16008
Do you seriously think if indeed it all took place with such precision and professionalism there wouldnt have been a strategy and a plan from A - Z ? This kind of operation would leave nothing unexplored or thought out. Every aspect would have been discussed and decided upon prior to commencing the operation.
That in itself should tell anyone with an ounce of sense the final act of dumping him overboard was preferable to any other option. They obviously didnt want any confirmation of independent means and went to great lengths to write that possibility out of the equation.
Now why would that be ? watch for the pathetic photos that will emerge probably with night vision and grainy pics when all they have to do is show better quality, after all his body would have been on a ship for a few hrs right ? plenty of opportunity to get at least some press in or outside confirmation.
The more im reading on this the more likely im seeing it as a staging post for action in Pakistan. Current claims that Pakistan had been aware of bin Laden in country for 6 years while the most up to date intel country in the world wasnt ?
You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried its becoming disturbing and not in the least bit chilling ... theres always a set up before the storm ... remember the WMD BS before Iraq ? keep an eye on the news over the coming weeks this could well be the beginning of a stage set and boy do I hope im wrong.
Deleted User - 819397
This post speaks the most sense out of everything said here in this thread. Victor, you keep asking for proof that he's dead. Any proof given could easily be a hoax. They could give us any proof, and there'd be people who'd scream fake. If the world believes he is dead, he is DEAD. By this I mean he and everyone who had power with his name loses this power since people think he's dead. His name becomes completely powerless. If people wanted to regain this power, they'd have to reveal that he was living. You claim that people who don't want proof are apathetic, but how will anyone be sure that the proof isn't faked? Answer: we can't, and it truly doesn't matter either way. He's dead in peoples' minds and without that fear in them, he's gone until something reveals he's not dead.
The reason I believe he is dead has been stated already, but I'll state it again since it seems to have gone over peoples' heads. If the U.S. Government was lying about this and it ever got out, it would utterly destroy the country, not to mention all other countries' faith in the U.S. This deceit would be worse than anything else this country has ever done and gotten caught in by a long shot. No politician would risk that. I have general disdain for politics, but they at least ensure that things this big are accurate. Granted, the timing of this is definitely convenient for Obama, but the Pakistani government is agreeing with the U.S. on the time of the attack that killed Osama. They have no reason to help with a lie, especially with the public's opinion generally against them. If that's not enough, they aren't entirely happy that they weren't informed of the attack beforehand. So, if all that's true, they have no incentive to lie.
Victor, I don't know why you're so paranoid about this. If you wouldn't mind, could you explain why my logic is wrong in your opinion? I simply refuse to believe that all this is some massive government conspiracy. I don't exactly love the way the government runs...in fact I downright dislike much of what they do. However, were this a conspiracy, and it all gets out, it would completely ruin the U.S., and no politician would do something this large in case it ruins their chances of running again. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.
DeletedUser
Are there any more news on the legal background of this operation in Pakistan anyway? Last I heard the Pakistani administration didn't know about it until after it happened.
So, wouldn't it be cool, if the Mexican army came to the US and start a firefight with drug dealers/bosses on US soil, without letting the US administration know what they do?
So, wouldn't it be cool, if the Mexican army came to the US and start a firefight with drug dealers/bosses on US soil, without letting the US administration know what they do?
DeletedUser
Good point. It definitely shows lack of regard for Pakistan's sovereignty.
DeletedUser20104
Well Osama has been hiding in Pak for a long time but escaped everytime before this.Why?
The most possible reason seems that someone who knows about the Ops leaks the info out in enough time to let him escape.
The most possible reason seems that someone who knows about the Ops leaks the info out in enough time to let him escape.
DeletedUser
it's a complete load of crap. why? well...
1: there is a large chance that Bin laden is already dead anyway, and 2: even if they do show pictures of "his body" there is a very small chance that it is actually him. they could just get hold of a dead body of any old geezer and put a bullet in it. because to be fair, who actually knows what Bin laden looks like? the closest there is is a load of fuzzy videos.
there just is no proof! it's a complete load of crap!
1: there is a large chance that Bin laden is already dead anyway, and 2: even if they do show pictures of "his body" there is a very small chance that it is actually him. they could just get hold of a dead body of any old geezer and put a bullet in it. because to be fair, who actually knows what Bin laden looks like? the closest there is is a load of fuzzy videos.
there just is no proof! it's a complete load of crap!
Diggo11
Well-Known Member
[spoil]
I imagined this attitude would crop up. "Well he killed 3000 of our citizens, so we should parade him around the streets as a criminal as an example to all Muslims!" Unfortunately it is that kind of attitude that will provoke further terrorism. Extremism / terrorism is not a race, it is not a religion, it is a [twisted] frame of mind. Forcing such loss and humiliation down their throat will only cause them to come back twice as hard, just as the U.S. came back twice as hard when people started dancing in the street after 9/11. (Note the hypocrisy?) It's an endless cycle, and there won't be any winners...
As it is, sorry LR, but he is a martyr. To be precise, by those in the extremism / terrorism frame of mind, he is perceived as a martyr for their cause. Irrespective of whether he is or isn't, he is. Rubbing salt in the wounds won't help anybody.
[spoil]
Both correct, but another wet cookie goes to HS. At surface consideration a public trial would serve no real purpose - I doubt you could find an unbiased jury in the entire country - and would only serve as a waste of time and money. In deeper consideration it only provides extremists with two benefits: time to plot a hostage capture and swap situation and further motivation (after the perceived humiliation of the trial) to continue acts of terrorism in defiance of their insults. It's in everyone's best interest.
[spoil]
So Gizmo, according to that excerpt, the troops did everything in accordance to Islamic tradition except bury the body? For a most wanted man, that's impressive; government took the high ground and actually acted on the basis of the war that Obama keeps re-inforcing, that it is a war on terror and not Islam.
Whilst I agree the body was disposed of hastily, their choice of burial location was definitely with some purpose. Just take staunch Christians who visit sites where Mary or some other divine saint was said to have appeared or worked miracles - they do get visited as shrines. Osama's grave site would have become just that, so where better to hide it than at the depths of the ocean. The quicker it starts sinking, the quicker it's off both Obama's desk and back.
[spoil]
Service men and women killed in a month is not directly proportional to what Obama says and does, but on a variety of factors including the actual month, conditions, number and type of arms the Taliban can get their hands on, numbers of terrorists willing to use them and the actual number of servicepeople in the field. Any rises and falls should incorporate more depth of research than what the media says Obama said.
Above that, determining how "deadly" a period of war is should be determined by causalities incurred between achieving strategic military objectives of equivalent significant purpose, not a linear time frame. During Obama's presidency the US Army have managed to assassinate the head of the one of if not the most prominent extremist organisation. In contrast, Bush started two wars. Sure, perhaps there were less deaths per month under Bush's organisation, but on the same token he was essentially fighting an endless war with no real successes to note. Endless.
---
Aaand onto the cover up conspiracy. If he was killed and frozen - he's still dead. If he's alive and hiding - he's dead to the world. If someone manages to attain proof of the alleged conspiracy (who hates Julian Assange again?) then so be it, Obama can see his way out and Osama returns from isolation, not to mention the US looses all internal and international credibility. However, unless on the minuscule chance* that occurs, justice is a good as done for the grieving families and Osama is no more than a memory.
* Obama has more to lose in attempting to fake the death of the most wanted man. I sincerely doubt he'd be foolish enough to gift ammunition to his number one enemy.
[/spoil]
I imagined this attitude would crop up. "Well he killed 3000 of our citizens, so we should parade him around the streets as a criminal as an example to all Muslims!" Unfortunately it is that kind of attitude that will provoke further terrorism. Extremism / terrorism is not a race, it is not a religion, it is a [twisted] frame of mind. Forcing such loss and humiliation down their throat will only cause them to come back twice as hard, just as the U.S. came back twice as hard when people started dancing in the street after 9/11. (Note the hypocrisy?) It's an endless cycle, and there won't be any winners...
As it is, sorry LR, but he is a martyr. To be precise, by those in the extremism / terrorism frame of mind, he is perceived as a martyr for their cause. Irrespective of whether he is or isn't, he is. Rubbing salt in the wounds won't help anybody.
[spoil]
[/spoil]
Both correct, but another wet cookie goes to HS. At surface consideration a public trial would serve no real purpose - I doubt you could find an unbiased jury in the entire country - and would only serve as a waste of time and money. In deeper consideration it only provides extremists with two benefits: time to plot a hostage capture and swap situation and further motivation (after the perceived humiliation of the trial) to continue acts of terrorism in defiance of their insults. It's in everyone's best interest.
[spoil]
[/spoil]
So Gizmo, according to that excerpt, the troops did everything in accordance to Islamic tradition except bury the body? For a most wanted man, that's impressive; government took the high ground and actually acted on the basis of the war that Obama keeps re-inforcing, that it is a war on terror and not Islam.
Whilst I agree the body was disposed of hastily, their choice of burial location was definitely with some purpose. Just take staunch Christians who visit sites where Mary or some other divine saint was said to have appeared or worked miracles - they do get visited as shrines. Osama's grave site would have become just that, so where better to hide it than at the depths of the ocean. The quicker it starts sinking, the quicker it's off both Obama's desk and back.
[spoil]
[/spoil]
Service men and women killed in a month is not directly proportional to what Obama says and does, but on a variety of factors including the actual month, conditions, number and type of arms the Taliban can get their hands on, numbers of terrorists willing to use them and the actual number of servicepeople in the field. Any rises and falls should incorporate more depth of research than what the media says Obama said.
Above that, determining how "deadly" a period of war is should be determined by causalities incurred between achieving strategic military objectives of equivalent significant purpose, not a linear time frame. During Obama's presidency the US Army have managed to assassinate the head of the one of if not the most prominent extremist organisation. In contrast, Bush started two wars. Sure, perhaps there were less deaths per month under Bush's organisation, but on the same token he was essentially fighting an endless war with no real successes to note. Endless.
---
Aaand onto the cover up conspiracy. If he was killed and frozen - he's still dead. If he's alive and hiding - he's dead to the world. If someone manages to attain proof of the alleged conspiracy (who hates Julian Assange again?) then so be it, Obama can see his way out and Osama returns from isolation, not to mention the US looses all internal and international credibility. However, unless on the minuscule chance* that occurs, justice is a good as done for the grieving families and Osama is no more than a memory.
* Obama has more to lose in attempting to fake the death of the most wanted man. I sincerely doubt he'd be foolish enough to gift ammunition to his number one enemy.
DeletedUser16008
The bottom line that Americans here really dont care if hes dead now or 8 years ago says it all is astounding & your basically agreeing your gov is full of bull and yet you put up with it like a bunch of sheep
You miss the point entirely, Ive already said I believe hes dead have done for years what are you not understanding ? its obviously gone way over your head ol son Actually if you do your homework properly your making assumptions. The Pakistan government has only confirmed the US invaded their sovereign soil nothing else...a total joke and also after the fact, they were not asked or permission given ... last time I looked that came under invasion if you wish to have a a strong word for it.
Paranoid ?? ARE you nuts ? im rightfully worried that country is a nuclear power and the US have been drone bombing and also sending in troops to engage in Black ops. Pakistan have very strong ties with certain other major powers. This is not a middle eastern second rate power this is a country with 180 million, nuclear capability and actually the people there right now are OUTRAGED that the US has come in and done this on their soil.. Do you know anyone in Pakistan ?? no ? well I do, quite a few in fact, there is uproar there and it threatens to upset the ruling party's hold and destabilize the whole region .I assure you the middle east will look like a teaparty if it goes off in the India's. Paranoid you say ??? Id love to see some armed military group pop into the US and snatch or blow away for example some Nazi that was transported there instead of put on trial at Nuremberg.
Frankly if that was US soil added to the drones bombing civilians youd probably be talking about responding to an act of WAR right now
The conspiracy as far as I can see is its far too convenient timing im sick of seeing these things go off at convenient times to shift the attention. If you dont see the writing on the wall after my two posts im not going to explain it again you obviously didn't read it. If you dismiss it as paranoid writings then your an even bigger fool whan all ive done is given fact examples of cover ups, lies and manipulation of the American people in your own recent history. Amazing the propaganda machine has such a hold over people even when given some examples of what has been done not to even be skeptical and investigate further. and thats exactly the reaction they have come to expect form the American people.
Just so we are clear here before I launch into the real deal.. I AM NOT ANTI AMERICAN in fact I count many true Americans my friend & I love the country as i do many. I am outraged that they are represented like this even if some of them themselves aren't.
I am tired of the US government doing as they wish abusing others sovereign lands, imprisoning people indefinitely with no trial as they see fit... The US Gov is a JOKE its a bullying, sadistic, manipulating regime and has been for decades now, the foreign policies suck, the respect for other nations is minimal, the black ops, lies and political tactics are a disgrace, your human rights abuse make china look to be comparable, your constitution is constantly abused by your own government and being eroded ... the corporations run your country not the government its a case of the tail wagging the dog. My god man the bankers nearly took down the entire global financial system and your government gave them even more money and continue to do so. The country is rife with corruption right to the very highest level and you probably dont want to see it its no better than russia or china for corruption its just jazzed up with legal bills etc put into place by the lobbying cartels.On top of it all your population consists of mainly dumbed down apathetic people with little education or regard for anything other than what they are fed on fox news, little more than cannon fodder and no better than the poor in any other country, easily lead and manipulated. Your government dosnt want peace, it cant afford peace with your military might it has to either use it or go broke overnight to maintain it. The world police ? ha, the world bully for sure & ill bet you a million $ youll be in another engagement by the end of the year.
Now if ive offended anyone Ill quickly point out my own government is just as bad and im pig sick of them too, no one gives a rats about the planet or the people really other than those without the real power, those with it couldnt give a damn. If they did wed all be in hover cars, using free energy, and probably colonizing space by now. Instead we bicker and fight about resources and happily murder each other for much less than 40 pieces of silver. Generally western people talk and talk about freedom and sustainability and fair treatment but honestly thats not what they want. What they want is to feel superior and if they see something they want are prepared to walk over whoever to get it.
No im not Paranoid, sadly angry yes but the world isnt as calm or simple as you seem to think. Conspiracy is a simple label trivialized since the time of Watergate when it was a horror to the country, now its just a word. You dont see anything dodgy thats fine. Ive laid out my posts and the reasons i find it concerning but to call me paranoid when the US is continuously warmongering and ignoring countries sovereign rights is a joke.
War is not a joke real people die, horrendous injuries and pain is suffered, hearts are broken, families ruined, generations wiped out. Yet the TV has turned even this into a freak show, the only inclining you got was during 9/11 and the country spent years mourning over a few thousand deaths. Since then your military has claimed 100 s of thousands of lives yet is there any feeling towards that ? no of course not. Long as its not in your back yard thats ok right ? well its not alright. Just imagine the suffering and feeling of other countries populous. The American society is mostly desensitized and apathetic towards the suffering of others, its like a sickness with psychopathic tendencies whipped up by propaganda no better than some of these countries that have no education for the masses, they have an excuse the US should know better and set a positive example yet it consistently does otherwise and that disgusts me.
Why dont some of you step up and tell me by what right does the US have to to continue to drop in where ever they please without reprisal, your playing with fire imo and time is running out for the US and one day its going to pick on the wrong country or push one too far. Youve already had 9/11 and whilst i condemn it its hardly surprising it happened. Deserved certainly not but bound to happen at some point and there will be other attacks some time ive no doubt.
The US has this crazy disjointed and blinkered view about war and thats because in all its history youve never once had to fight on your own soil vs an invading force or been with your backs to the wall, you can't possibly understand.For some reason theres a belief that you have the right to do things to others but they have none to do the the same to you.
You got no idea what its really like to be at war your always on the other side of the world doing it. Sorry about the rant but its all tied in and im pretty sure ive broken no rules if I have infract me.
DeletedUser20104
Vic do you really think that Osama was hiding next to a military establishment without help from authorities?? Every other attempt to get him before failed as he was able to escape well before the forces got there!!WHY??
The answer might seem a bit of BS but someone(or maybe more than one) who had a high rank is giving out info to them.
Pakisthan is a nuclear country and even the thought that 1 nuclear bomb falling into the hands for terrorist send shivers down my spine and here we are talking about an entire nuclear arsenal.You have to take every possible care to make sure that doesnt happen and if it happens we got a very bad situation on our hands
The answer might seem a bit of BS but someone(or maybe more than one) who had a high rank is giving out info to them.
Pakisthan is a nuclear country and even the thought that 1 nuclear bomb falling into the hands for terrorist send shivers down my spine and here we are talking about an entire nuclear arsenal.You have to take every possible care to make sure that doesnt happen and if it happens we got a very bad situation on our hands
DeletedUser16008
No sid I doubt he was even there and long since dead but its highly unlikely if he were it would have escaped the US intel for so long with or without help from the Pakistan authorities. If he was there it was with the knowledge of both the US and Pakistan if not many others.If a celebrity cant go anywhere without a pic getting shot of them what makes you think the most wanted man with such a price on his head can sit somewhere for 5 years unless it was well known and allowed to happen.Vic do you really think that Osama was hiding next to a military establishment without help from authorities?? Every other attempt to get him before failed as he was able to escape well before the forces got there!!WHY??
The answer might seem a bit of BS but someone(or maybe more than one) who had a high rank is giving out info to them.
Pakisthan is a nuclear country and even the thought that 1 nuclear bomb falling into the hands for terrorist send shivers down my spine and here we are talking about an entire nuclear arsenal.You have to take every possible care to make sure that doesnt happen and if it happens we got a very bad situation on our hands
Pakistan is ranked 8 in nuclear warhead capability with its neighbor India at a respective rank 7 both are on constant alert re the other & any backlash would destabilize the region very quickly. The prospect of a warhead falling into terrorist hands or being used isnt a matter of if but when, its inevitable.
source BBC
The compound in which he was killed is just a few hundred metres from the Pakistan Military Academy.
The BBC's Aleem Maqbool in Abbottabad says that if Bin Laden had been there for as long as five years, it raises questions about the Pakistani authorities.
Either they were incredibly incompetent or were harbouring the al-Qaeda leader, our correspondent says.
Two couriers and one woman died in the assault, while one of Bin Laden's wives was injured.
The US has not commented on anyone it captured or had planned to capture, other than saying it had taken Bin Laden's body, which was buried at sea.
US officials are discussing how and when to release pictures of Bin Laden's body to counter conspiracy theories that he did not die.
Mr Carney said the "gruesome" image could inflame sensitivities, but Mr Panetta said there was no question it would at some point be shown to the public.
How on earth does the worlds most wanted man sit somewhere for up to 5 years with his wives going about his business with a price on his head like no other whilst all around him a search is going on both on the ground, via satellite and all the intelligence services engaged in his pursuit ?
Incompetence is not the word id use for it. Discussing about releasing pictures to debunk the conspiracy theory that he did not die is also incorrect more that he was not in that local when the operation took place and probably long dead already... the stall in photos or confirmation at the time and lack of transparency with other nations etc when they had the chance was 100% intentional. It will probably do nothing but allow time for photoshop to be used properly this time and will only add more skepticism and raise even more questions. I swear this is the real intention to make things so inconclusive, unclear and messy that no one will be able to uncover the real truth & that is the real conspiracy as far as im concerned.
DeletedUser
what i find strange, is for all the terrible things that have been leaked on the web by some, well savage(if that word fits) american soldiers, such as torturing, beating, even the throwing the puppy off a cliff....nobody can honestly say that the most wanted man in america would not have been caught on camera by someone along the way from death to disposal
DeletedUser
http://www.lovendal.net/wp52/benazi...inca-din-2007-ca-osama-bin-laden-a-fost-ucis/
watch the video,it's in english,this interview was realized in november 2nd 2007 and this woman was killed in december 27th 2007
obama bin hussein bin barack is a liar.
watch the video,it's in english,this interview was realized in november 2nd 2007 and this woman was killed in december 27th 2007
obama bin hussein bin barack is a liar.
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DeletedUser
Osama is dead. I will not and do not worry about Osama bin Laden walking a free man on this world ever again. Sure, we got some controversy on the subject. Sure, we got some crazy conspiracies. But we've been having conspiracies since George Washington. I'm no big fan of the government. Never have, never will. Doesn't mean that they can't do some right and that is just what Obama did.
That is my opinion.
That is my opinion.
DeletedUser
"But one of the raiders thought he recognized the leader of al Qaeda and dropped him with a shot to his left eye as the SEALs stormed into a third-floor room of the main house during a nearly 40-minute firefight."
Wow, that was one big and breezy room.
Deleted User - 819397
To clarify my point, I meant that he's not anywhere near as much of a martyr as he could be. There will always be people who consider anyone dying for their cause to be a martyr, and seeing as that's the definition of the word, it makes sense. However, I'm talking from the viewpoint of the world. Since his body was taken and effectively eliminated before any of the more radical Muslims could get ahold of it, his effectiveness as a martyr shoots way down. By this I mean since the radical Muslims do not have his body they lack a certain air of anger. Is anger focusing on the U.S.? Absolutely. Is it as strong as it could be? No. Since the radical Muslims could not obtain and enshrine his body in any holy area, his death lacks the punch that would make him a true martyr. In the true sense of the word he is a martyr, but the way in which he became a martyr and what happened directly afterward limits his followers' ability to use his "sacrifice" as fuel for their fires. This is simply my opinion, but I truly believe that this is correct.
@Victor. Look at James the Hunter's post. He's correct in saying conspiracy theories have always existed. Where there is government, there has to be these theories. This goes for my government, your government, any government. In my last post I said I don't like a lot of what the government does. Ask anyone from any country and they'll say the same thing. Governments do a lot of controversial things. When they occur people come up with these theories. Years go by, and more facts are uncovered until the full truth is laid out (or close to it.) By this time people have calmed down about the issue and can classify it as either good or bad. If people acted every time a conspiracy theory came up, we'd have global anarchy. If you want to think that this whole thing is a conspiracy, fine. Go ahead. However, I hold to my belief that no politician in this day and age would lie about something this serious. It would destroy them if they were lying, and no one is willing to risk that.
DeletedUser
i'd respected a lot of you guys for many posts you had done here,but now some tv appereance of osama,pardon,obama bin barack who tell's me that their puppet is gone and you celebrate but i understand something,that the americans are the really nr 1 terrorists of this world,they fought for oil in iraq,they fought for heroin in afghanistan(90% of world production,to be more precise) and know when their country is almost empty pocket,what they do.they had shot dead santa claus.patetic
DeletedUser
I would like to be able to understand a post. If you could make this understandable for us human-beings, it would be appreciated.
Also, cheap shots at a man that the people voted for won't get you anywhere. It is childish to say the least.
DeletedUser
Google translate having a bad day?
DeletedUser16008
You are joking they lie just as much now as they ever did, it'll come out for sure and the only thing they wont be put on trial as they should be they are protected and just fade out millions of dollars richer. I see a desperate man and party clutching at straws & attempting to throw off focus on other pressing issues, Birth cert, class AAA rating into question, the dollar sliding, drone attacks, home issues, popularity at an all time low. right now they will say or do anything to get reelected. Youd better believe they would lie about anything to achieve that goal its all they are concerned with at the moment because they have nothing to lose.
Various stories being circulated by government sources cant even even agree on events as they supposedly happened less than 48 hrs after the event... This isnt a war scenario it was a calculated operation so it should be clear in its report and debrief not confused but its not.
One minute Osama has killed in a firefight now it turns out he was unarmed. The ops commander would have put in 1 report not two. To watch the whitehouse contradict itself every day is farcical and totally become standard practice.
Yesterday the CIA head said publicly eventually photos would be released today Obama has come out and said they wouldn't as they were too sensitive
They cant even get their story aligned or straight its a farce and the world not hooked into the matrix are laughing their asses off
This is a government either in total disarray or calculatingly manipulative in its release of information & i refuse to believe in this day and age consistent mess ups like this are acceptable. In any event this administration has less and less credibility and its competence is at the least non existent or at worst blatantly lying to the world. Choose whichever you want.
Go off and do some research youll find they all lie, throughout the past right up to the present and nothing will change as long as patsy's sit there and nod their heads on cue like good little vote slips. Because thats all you are to them I assure you.
Please take an interest in the world around you and get off the mainstream media and look at other resources out there. Don't be sucked into the belief the main media is any better or worse than all the independents out there just because its convenient. Take your time and look around you. There are always conspiracies its true but it also dosnt mean that all of of them dont have some basis either. The corridors of power are rarely what they seem to the outside and very few remain honest men once in them for long. The general public are like cattle and there to be herded, at least know where your being herded to and try to find out why.
They say ignorance is bliss, well they would wouldnt they ?... i prefer the saying knowledge is empowerment & i'll bet if you do look around it will be like taking off the blindfold and seeing the world in glorious Technicolor for the first time. Good luck.
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