Death of Bin Laden

[DeletedUser]

The force that killed him probably broke the rules, you are not allowed to shoot someone who's unarmed, does not U.S.A respect these rules?

I was wondering why nobody had mentioned that in all these posts. There's no doubt in my mind that he would have been executed eventually if he had been captured and tried, but I don't think that justifies not trying to take him alive... Saddam Hussein faded from the spotlight pretty quickly after he was executed, and bin Laden may have too. Personally, I've never considered anyone's death a reason to celebrate, but I've learned to expect it whenever a controversial person dies. I tend to think that it really makes little difference whether he's dead or not. If he isn't, he's not real likely to advertise the fact and put the target back on his back; if he is, there are plenty more terrorists around to take up where he left off (Muslim and otherwise, I never understood why it was necessary to specify).

 

[DeletedUser16008]

Up until 2001 Bin Laden was quite vocal and from time to time visible. Since then hes become the invisible man with no substantiated evidence of him being still alive right up to and including last week.

Consider some of the following

Death of Osama bin Laden in 2001

Although the corpse of bin Laden will never be found, various sources alluded to the circumstances that led to his death in the Middle East early last decade with far more likelihood of the reality.

According to United Press International (Oct. 31, 2001), bin Laden underwent clandestine kidney treatment by Dr. Terry Calloway (Canadian urologist) for 11 days in July at the American Hospital in Dubai. During his hospital stay, bin Laden met with a U.S. CIA agent, according to French daily Le Figaro and Radio France International. The day before the infamous September 11 terrorist attacks, bin Laden entered a military hospital for further kidney dialysis treatment in Raqalpindi, Pakistan, reported by CBS (Jan. 28, 2002).

In an interview with CNN (Jan. 19, 2002), Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf hinted, “He (bin Laden) is dead for the reason he is a ...kidney patient.” Musharraf also mentioned that bin Laden took two dialysis machines with him into Afghanistan.

A few days later, Dr. Sanjay Gupta on CNN (Jan. 21, 2002) gave his professional assessment of bin Laden’s medical condition based on the videotape broadcasted by al Jazeera on December 27, 2001. He explained that bin Laden’s ghastly appearance — “grayness of beard, paleness of skin, very gaunt sort of features” — is often associated with chronic kidney failure or renal failure. He also noted that bin Laden couldn’t move his left arm probably due to a stroke because people suffering from kidney failures have a higher risk for stroke. Dr. Gupta pointed out that dialysis machines require electricity, clean water and a sterile environment to function properly. Without an operational machine, a patient could only survive for less than a week.

During December 2001, the U.S. Air Force, after cornering the Taliban combatants in the mountainous Tora Bora, relentlessly blasted the area for days, unleashing an estimated 1.8 million kg of explosives, including the deadly bunker-busting bombs to implode caves. According to the Pentagon, radio transmissions of bin Laden's voice were detected regularly until December 14, 2001.

An Egyptian paper posted on December 26, 2001, ran an obituary on Osama bin Laden whose death resulted from lack of proper medical care for “serious lung complications.” A Taliban official told the Pakistan Observer that he saw bin Laden’s face before the burial in Tora Bora where some members of bin Laden’s family, friends and al Qaeda fighters gathered for his funeral. Asked whether he could pinpoint the spot where bin Laden was buried, he answered, "I am sure that like other places in Tora Bora that particular place too must have vanished," implying that it was obliterated by U.S. aerial bombing.

According to Washington Post (Oct. 28.2002), the Arabic-language al-Majallah obtained bin Laden’s will from a “very reliable” source in Afghanistan. The will — typed, signed by bin Laden and dated December 14, 2001— includes verses of Koran and the words of a man “who appeared desperate and on the verge of death.”

It is also a very strong possibility He was suffering from the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addison%27s_disease

That he was treated on a dialysis machine is not contested. Is it likely he would have been as he was before or continue to be mobile and in good health for ten years in the conditions and places hes been claimed to be ? I doubt it very much.

Tapes — Authentic vs. Fake

It is certain that all videos of bin Laden released in 2001 were authentic, except the one found by anti-Taliban forces, which was an obvious fake. It was difficult to determine the exact time the real videos were made but they were all filmed outdoors. More importantly, the sequential release of videos was showing bin Laden’s health deteriorating before our eyes. Bruce Lawrence, a Duke professor, who authored Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama Bin Laden (Verso, 2005) based on 20 complete speeches and interviews of bin Laden, pointed out that authentic tapes contain several key elements:

• verses quoted from the Koran because bin Laden was a devout Muslim;
• references to past Western atrocities against Muslims;
• lengthy taped messages (shortest one was 18 minutes).

The fake one, released by Pentagon on December 13, 2001, was conveniently left in a deserted house in Jalalabad. The poor-quality video not only showed a well-fed man posing as bin Laden, resembling nothing like the al Qaeda chief, but also writing with his right hand (bin Laden was left-handed). At a small gathering, the imposter was laughing and joking about how he had carried out the September 11 atrocities, except he got the names wrong on two hijackers.

Another fraudulent video of bin Laden aired by al Jazeera on October 29, 2004, occurred just four days before the U.S. presidential election. Besides missing key elements, this particular tape (shot indoors) depicted a blurry image of supposedly bin Laden (contrast to his previous sharp images), standing behind a podium against a brown canvas backdrop. In a new twist, the speaker (fully recovered from poor health) claimed direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States. (Although bin Laden praised the September 11 hijackers, he never took credit for their attacks in any of his 2001 videos.) Even Walter Cronkite, the well-known retired news reporter, suggested that the whole scenario was a concoction by Karl Rove to secure the re-election for George W. Bush.

As for audiotapes, they started to appear in 2002 almost on a regular and politically-timed basis, some of which claimed to be voices of al Qaeda members, while others were attributed to al Zawahiri or bin Laden. Strangely, the fact that al Qaeda adopted new tactics for relaying messages has never raised any public suspicion. More troubling, al Qaeda has a history of secrecy and deception — never giving warnings or claiming responsibility for any attacks; yet, the emergence of numerous taped messages suggests that al Qaeda has broken away from its usual practice of silence by claiming responsibility for various global terrorist attacks.

One audiotape purported to be from bin Laden (released on November 12, 2002) was confirmed by U.S. intelligence to be genuine after completing a technical and linguistic analysis. However, IDIAP, the world’s foremost voice identification experts in Switzerland, reached a contrary conclusion — the voice on the tape didn’t belong to bin Laden but to someone whose voice patterns resembled bin Laden. Swiss researchers declared their scientific voice analysis to be 95 per cent accurate, with risk of error just five per cent. This audiotape was the only one analyzed by an independent group of experts.

Obviously, to release a “terrorist” video or an audiotape would have an explosive impact on society. There is no rational explanation for al Qaeda to release fake tapes. Some argue that it has been done to keep the myth that bin Laden is still alive. If so, there would be no need to have taped messages of other al Qaeda members speak for bin Laden if he really were alive. Furthermore, there would be no reason for al Qaeda to make a fake tape when they could make a real one to draw attention to its future and past terrorist acts or even call forth a coordinated attack.

The fact that the fake tapes do exist implies only one possibility — the party responsible for releasing such tapes wanted to incite public fear and confusion, instill blame on the targeted enemies, and justify the fight against terrorism anywhere in the world. As clearly demonstrated in the appearance of bin Laden audiotape (Jan. 19, 2006), President Bush told reporters: “When he says he’s going to hurt the American people again, or try to, he means it.” Homeland Security spokeswoman Michelle Petrovich pitched in: “we recognize that al-Qaida remains committed to striking the homeland.” Vice President Cheney stated: “I think you have to destroy them (terrorists). It’s the only way to deal with them.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videos_and_audio_recordings_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Given these recordings etc have all taken place after his serious illness I suspect the guy was already very sick and unlikely to have been the real voice or person on any since 2002

October 7, 2001

Just after US and NATO forces launched strikes in Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden released a video tape stating "America has been hit by Allah at its most vulnerable point, destroying, thank God, its most prestigious buildings", referencing the September 11, 2001 attacks on the US. Bin Laden did not claim responsibility for the attacks in the recording.

A bit strange don't you think in his supposedly finest hour not taking credit for 9/11 if indeed he was behind it ? He was already at war with the US and knew take credit or not he was going to pay for it regardless why not use the opportunity to instill confidence in his group and take the initiative when it was possible ? I mean from here on in al Qaeda would claim responsibility for numerous attacks not their previous style so why didnt he claim credit for 9/11 surely the jewel in his crown of terror ? probably because he was dead not long after and he never broke with the style always used by al Queda.

Terrorism has always been around always will be, its the perfect boogy man and gives a perfect unseen enemy that can be blamed or attributed anywhere in the world.

Im not bashing the American people here or its brave forces whom i have the greatest respect for, i do wonder who is kidding who tho and i fear the American people are the prime target in all this.

I think Mr Laden indeed at one time a very real threat has been dead for a long long time regardless of what the current flagging in popularity administration would have you believe.

 

[DeletedUser]

Oooooh.......a conspiracy!
Nice of Dubya to leave it for Barack to take the credit tho'.
I'm glad governments work on gathering and collating real-life intelligence and don't just act on wild conjectures they find on the internet (except for WMD of course).

 

[DeletedUser16008]

Oooooh.......a conspiracy!
Nice of Dubya to leave it for Barack to take the credit tho'.
I'm glad governments work on gathering and collating real-life intelligence and don't just act on wild conjectures they find on the internet (except for WMD of course).

Im giving you reports not conjectures no less credible than some whitehouse moron reading from a script.

The intelligence cant even get a simple account of an operation correct or agree on what went down ?. You any idea how many people were killed on the basis of the WMD farce ?

Your glad are you ? This what the last US and Allied governments conjecture has lead to.

There have been several attempts by the media, coalition governments and others to estimate the Iraqi casualties. The table below summarizes some of these estimates.

Source Iraqi casualties
March 2003 to ... Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 violent deaths.
June 2006 Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths.
June 2006 Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 violent deaths from the conflict.
August 2007 Associated Press 110,600 violent deaths.
April 2009 Iraq Body Count 113,494 – 122,483 violent civilian deaths from the conflict. (including new deaths added from the Iraq War Logs) October 2010

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]American Military Casualties in Iraq
[/FONT]
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03):4452

Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 4311
Since Handover (6/29/04):363
Since Obama Inauguration (1/20/09):224
Since Operation New Dawn:3415
American Wounded Official:33023

​

Latest Fatality April 29, 2011​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Others[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Other Coalition Troops - [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Iraq[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]318[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]US Military Deaths - Afghanistan[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 1,566[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Other Military Deaths - Afghanistan[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 875[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contractor Employee Deaths[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Iraq[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 1,487[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Journalists - Iraq[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 348[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Academics Killed - Iraq[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]448[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sources: DoD, MNF, and iCasualties.org
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Don't even joke about lapses like that they don't happen by accident & many thousands of families if not millions have been affected by that illegal war with many dead in on all sides both civilian and military.Still happy about your governments last Conjecture ?

Im giving you dates names figures and sources and your giving me one liners pffttt put up or go back to fox news i care not which.

PS they even tried to pin a link between Bin Laden and Hussein whereas anyone could tell you they were at opposite ends of the scale and not in the slightest connected........... muppets

 

[DeletedUser]

Can we lay all the conspiracy talk to rest with al Qaeda confirming bin Laden's death?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/06/us-binladen-qaeda-confirmation-idUSTRE74528A20110506
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/06/al-qaeda-confirms-bin-ladens-death-islamist-websites/
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2011/05/201156125729467729.html

 

[DeletedUser16008]

Oh you mean these news clips ?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...74528A20110506 would have you believe its hard fact which its not..as the next two at least mention.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05...mist-websites/
CAIRO -- Al Qaeda confirmed the killing of Usama bin Laden and vowed revenge, saying Friday that Americans' "happiness will turn to sadness." The statement was the first by the terror network since its leader was slain in a U.S. commando raid against his Pakistani hideout.
The statement, written in typical Al Qaeda style and in the name of the organization's General Command, seemed mostly intended to reassure followers that the terror group remains vigorous and intact.
The statement was dated Tuesday, the day after bin Laden's death. Its authenticity could not be independently confirmed, but it was posted on militant websites Friday by the al-Fajr Center, Al Qaeda's online media distribution network.

​

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...729467729.html
Al-Qaeda has confirmed the death of its leader, Osama bin Laden, and said in an online posting that it would continue to launch attacks on the West.
The group said it would not deviate from the path of armed struggle and that bin Laden's blood " is more precious to us and to every Muslim than to be wasted in vain".

The statement was released on forums sympathetic to al-Qaeda and translated by the SITE monitoring service on Friday.
"It [bin Laden's blood] will remain, with permission from Allah the Almighty, a curse that chases the Americans and their agents, and goes after them inside and outside their countries,"al-Qaeda said.
It was not clear what country the statement had been posted from.

Well thats conclusive.. NOT

Mmmm nope not from what im reading, it proves nothing and to be honest anyone could have released this including the CIA... they've been caught faking stuff before it gives me no reason to believe anything other than all of a sudden they will have a tape they claim is old Bin allegedly being released soon. Maye they can with all the mobile phones etc also get us a recent picture or video of the guy doing a wasssaaaap to his boys seems the Whitehorse arnt going to oblige anytime soon

 

[DeletedUser]

Mmmm nope not from what im reading, it proves nothing and to be honest anyone could have released this including the CIA... they've been caught faking stuff before it gives me no reason to believe anything other than all of a sudden they will have a tape they claim is old Bin allegedly being released soon. Maye they can with all the mobile phones etc also get us a recent picture or video of the guy doing a wasssaaaap to his boys seems the Whitehorse arnt going to oblige anytime soon

"The problem with quotes found on the internet is you have no way of confirming their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

 

[DeletedUser]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Don't even joke about lapses like that they don't happen by accident & many thousands of families if not millions have been affected by that illegal war with many dead in on all sides both civilian and military.Still happy about your governments last Conjecture ?

Victor, the joke is not all the bad mojo that goes down in the world, but that some average joe with an internet connection thinks that they could do it so much better.
Don't derail the topic - this isn't about Iraq.
But I pity the fools who are snubbing their noses at America - if Russia or China had won the cold war their lives wouldn't be half as comfortable, and a free debate like this would not even be taking place. Under Islamists, even more so.

 

[DeletedUser16008]

Victor, the joke is not all the bad mojo that goes down in the world, but that some average joe with an internet connection thinks that they could do it so much better.
Don't derail the topic - this isn't about Iraq.
But I pity the fools who are snubbing their noses at America - if Russia or China had won the cold war their lives wouldn't be half as comfortable, and a free debate like this would not even be taking place. Under Islamists, even more so.

Yea i know Eli

Sorry m8 you inferred WMD being a minor mistake i couldnt let that go.


Don't play the communist card,... thats paranoia, heck i was one once, what makes you think the cold war was won by anyone ? it fizzled out thats all you can say & the legacy of weaponry remains. China was not really involved in the cold war perse but they are in an economic/currency war with the west right now and beating the bejeezus out of everyone. What you meant to say was the world is safer than under far right fundamentalist Islamists, get it right theres a massive difference nor are Muslims any better or worse than say Christians or Catholics in any of their extreme forms thats just the propaganda talking.
Things are as they are Eli, the internet allows knowledge to be shared & knowledge is power, id bet in many ways the average Joe wouldn't mess things up to the level greed & governments have done sometimes. Don't overestimate the politicians, most are a lot more stupid than the average man in the street and don't live in the same world of reality. I wish they did.The world has changed forever since the net and at an exponential rate overall everyone is much much better off for it, look around you, do you think all the countries in uprising has nothing to do with the internet ? far from it theres an Information war going on out there right now and governments etc are wayyy behind the curve thankfully Viva la revolución


Apologies, im off topic im sure lumpass wishes to get back in and contribute with his one line seeing as his attn span resembles a goldfish

 

[DeletedUser]

The lack of facts in this one short paragraph is laughable. Since U.S. Presidents are limited to 2 four year terms, I doubt Bush 43's administration lasted 10 years.

The policies he imposed, the tactics and actions were not changed until over two years after his term ended. Examine the information on this before assuming 10 years refers merely to his terms in office.

Next, since Obama's "refocusing" of troops, U.S. casualties are up to record levels in Afghanistan and increasing in Iraq. This past month in Iraq was the deadliest since 2009. Check your facts before barfing up democrat talking points please.

This was already addressed by Diggo, but it is obvious you failed to examine the totality of this issue, which is that the actions in Iraq resulted in the greater bulk of U.S. and allied troop loss/injury, and is a war initiated by the Bush administration under a lie. Also, returning to Afghanistan, after the Bush administration allowed the Taliban and Al Qaeda to develop strongholds, are obstacles created by the previous administration. Finally, the manner and means of assault on Afghanistan (at the onset of this conflict) was also ill-managed and required a firm application of both diplomacy and tactical expertise, not "big hammer medicine."

If you simplify things, lumpyass, you'll get a satisfying smirk. If you look at all of the information, examine the history of these events, the lies imposed and the tactical errors throughout the Bush administration, it is quite reasonable to come to the conclusions I presented.

But, by all means smirk away...



As to the rest of this, Victor you're being silly. A multitude of Islamic sites which are longtime supporters and/or sympathizers of Al Qaeda have confirmed the death of Bin Ladin and vowed for revenge. If you truly want to continue with this conspiracy notion, you're going to be hard pressed to deny the contra-evidence. It's really not a battle you can win, but I'm sure playing devil's advocate can be fun.

 

[DeletedUser]

Like I said, Hellstromm, your democrat talking points and revisionist history are not facts. Obama has had two years to change the policies and casualties are up in both Iraq and Afghanistan, period. I don't need to insult you to prove my point, the facts are out there. You just can't be blind to them in order to support your world view.

As for Iraq being based on a lie, that too is untrue. It was based on the best intel available at the time. Saddam himself said he tried to make it appear he had WMD in order to keep Iran at bay. So the "lie" argument is just rubbish but, once again, it has been a lib talking point for years, regardless of the facts.

The bottom line is that you can't argue with a liberal, you ignore facts. Everything I posted I backed up with facts, you just come in with an ad hominem attack on me and think it proves your point? Get real.

VIctor, get a life. Usama is dead. I don't spend 20 hours per day writing idiotic conspiracy posts designed to bash other people's countries then flame them when they object.

 

[DeletedUser]

The usual victim card. At no point did I insult you or pose ad hominems. Don't make up crap, it undermines your argument. Btw, I am not a Democrat, not a liberal, not anti-Republican. Trying to paint me with one label or another is merely an opportunistic redress in an effort to discredit my comments by false association, which in and of itself is a form of ad hominem.

As to the so-called intel available, it was well known in the CIA/Pentagon and the White House, at the time, that the information provided to the U.N. and to Congress was from 1991, the intel obtained from the British was incorrect, and that the attack on Iraq had "NOTHING" to do with terrorists, Al Qaeda, the attack on 9/11, or Bin Ladin. It WAS a lie, and it was knowingly presented to the U.N., Congress, and the American people as a lie, with the intent to mislead all of them into thinking the attack on Iraq was associated with 9/11, an intentional exploitation of the fervor, American convictions, and the anger over what happened on that day.

There is ample evidence of this Lumpyass and it is not "liberal" reinterpretation. Documents have been released, confessions presented, etc and so on. Are you also going to claim that the White House was ignorant of the tortures imposed at abu ghraib, when Cheney initially denied any knowledge of it, and later when White House documents were released with his signature he admitted to such and claimed it was necessary? All the while there are still soldiers in prison who followed his orders as he sits comfortably in his mansion?

It is in the nature of such things to deny deny deny until such time as no punitive actions can, or will, be imposed. Yet even while the evidence is readily available, there are those who wish to continue the denial, for the sake of historical revisionism.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think we should focus more attention on Pakistan now. Unless they didn't notice the million dollar military style compound in the middle of an average Pakistani building, just a few minutes away from a Pakistani military instilation that was hiding the trash burning Bin Laden then they were probably hiding him or simply denying that he was there. I think it's good that Obama ignored help from or even noticing Pakistan for the Bin Laden mission, as they probably would of tipped Bin Laden off.

So will this be the final straw for the U.S. once more facts are found? Will Pakistan get less funding from the U.S. now because of this? Personally I think that cutting all funds off from them isn't wise, as they still do fight terrorism for the U.S. at some extent, but maybe limiting it less should be made.

 

[DeletedUser16008]

For the sake of debate Hells i like playing devils advocate sometimes true, its good to see others post & often amusing.

Ive said all im going to and believe Bin Laden to be long dead have done for a long time, nothing released gives me reason to believe any different. It serves all parties to continue from here on it happened last week although there are many holes and questions with little basis of confirmation other than propaganda release on all sides. There is such a thing as funding and keeping the troops and support happy and positive in all camps.

Lumpy Far as im concerned no country is above being critisized when the human cost is what it has been and continuing to be. You cant take it i really don't care, go look at things on record its all there to see Hellstromm has even given you a pointer or 10. You seem bitter mate & i don't have to nor will respond to your petty attack but im probably old enough to be your father and would have outgrew basements 30 years ago if we had them in my country which we dont.Success btw is measured in many ways, i'm comforable with my life are you sure you are with yours ? Because i post longer posts than you have attn span isnt my fault. It probably never occurred to you some people work on the computer for a living so may have access more than others.

It will be interesting to see how the Pakistan situation pans out & would be nice if the industrial military complex would take a break for a few years, just maybe a decade or so focused on building not breaking would be good for the world

I don't hate or dislike the US on the contrary its a great country with enormous potential imo one of your greatest, President Eisenhower said it all. He understood everything unfortunately the country didnt heed his warning.

I recommend you watch the Documentary "Why We fight" excerpt with industrial military complex speech & its nothing to do with conspiracies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIDuRQ7ioaM&feature=related

 

[Diggo11]

I think we should focus more attention on Pakistan now. Unless they didn't notice the million dollar military style compound in the middle of an average Pakistani building, just a few minutes away from a Pakistani military instilation that was hiding the trash burning Bin Laden then they were probably hiding him or simply denying that he was there. I think it's good that Obama ignored help from or even noticing Pakistan for the Bin Laden mission, as they probably would of tipped Bin Laden off.

So will this be the final straw for the U.S. once more facts are found? Will Pakistan get less funding from the U.S. now because of this? Personally I think that cutting all funds off from them isn't wise, as they still do fight terrorism for the U.S. at some extent, but maybe limiting it less should be made.

Unless the Pakistan government attempt to fuel the public unrest over the "attack on their sovereignty" or are proven beyond all reasonable doubt to have been assisting Osama, it will be much easier for Obama to wipe the mess under the carpet. The last thing he needs at this stage is to expand the war effort. And this will probably be one of the times where a political agenda matches the most desirable outcome. Ultimately the U.S. relies on Pakistan to keep the terrorists at bay, or at least not support them directly (isolated corruption may be a different matter); having them back flip on that policy would allow the issues in Afghanistan to spill over into Pakistan, a clear failure of objectives in the war on terror.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yea i know Eli

Sorry m8 you inferred WMD being a minor mistake i couldnt let that go.

Read the post again. What I said was that governments have better and first-hand intelligence data than we do. The WMD 'dodgy' dossier was partly bulked out with unverified internet claims from someone's PhD thesis. My point was that the internet is no more a source of valid information per se than any other medium. I wasn't implying that WMD was a minor mistake at all - I was saying that when governments turn to the internet for their information they can screw up big-time and that just because it's on a website doesn't make it right any more than being on Fox News makes it wrong.

Don't play the communist card,... thats paranoia

Why not play any card in my hand? Paranoia is an irrational fear. Thinking that Hollywood was full of commies in the 50's was paranoia - believing that that ICBMs were targeted on where I live in the 80's was not.

what makes you think the cold war was won by anyone

Looking at my old atlas from 1982

What you meant to say was ....

Oh, just write my posts for me, why don't you?

id bet in many ways the average Joe wouldn't mess things up to the level greed & governments have done sometimes.

Ever seen Sarah Palin?

Don't overestimate the politicians, most are a lot more stupid than the average man in the street

And yet you think they are taking us all for a ride? Let me leave you with this quote from David Mitchell:

1. The younger me would certainly have found scepticism about the death of Bin Laden more seductive than I do now, although possibly not sufficiently seductive to credit the existence of a conspiracy large and capable enough to organise such a cover-up. While conspiracy theorists consider mainstream opinion naive for taking things at face value, I find the conspiracy theorists naive for their belief in some humans' (or aliens' or lizards') almost infinite powers of organisation and secrecy. Anyway, if the lizards can get their together to that extent, they probably deserve to be in charge of everything – maybe we're in the grip of a malevolent version of the very meritocracy the absence of which we dupes bemoan.

 

[DeletedUser]

The usual victim card. At no point did I insult you or pose ad hominems. Don't make up crap, it undermines your argument. Btw, I am not a Democrat, not a liberal, not anti-Republican. Trying to paint me with one label or another is merely an opportunistic redress in an effort to discredit my comments by false association, which in and of itself is a form of ad hominem.

As to the so-called intel available, it was well known in the CIA/Pentagon and the White House, at the time, that the information provided to the U.N. and to Congress was from 1991, the intel obtained from the British was incorrect, and that the attack on Iraq had "NOTHING" to do with terrorists, Al Qaeda, the attack on 9/11, or Bin Ladin. It WAS a lie, and it was knowingly presented to the U.N., Congress, and the American people as a lie, with the intent to mislead all of them into thinking the attack on Iraq was associated with 9/11, an intentional exploitation of the fervor, American convictions, and the anger over what happened on that day.

There is ample evidence of this Lumpyass and it is not "liberal" reinterpretation. Documents have been released, confessions presented, etc and so on. Are you also going to claim that the White House was ignorant of the tortures imposed at abu ghraib, when Cheney initially denied any knowledge of it, and later when White House documents were released with his signature he admitted to such and claimed it was necessary? All the while there are still soldiers in prison who followed his orders as he sits comfortably in his mansion?

It is in the nature of such things to deny deny deny until such time as no punitive actions can, or will, be imposed. Yet even while the evidence is readily available, there are those who wish to continue the denial, for the sake of historical revisionism.

Like I said, delusion cannot be argued with. Your points are extremely biased and you give no sources. Rule #1, when someone jumps up and claims not to be something, they usually are.

As for the "torture" at Abu Ghraib, give me a break. It was mean but torture? Ask Daniel Pearl about torture. Oh wait, you can't, BECAUSE THEY CUT HIS HEAD OFF.

I have no problem expressing my political views. You libs hate admitting it and will deny it to the end of time. Just man up and admit it.

Lumpy Far as im concerned no country is above being critisized when the human cost is what it has been and continuing to be. You cant take it i really don't care, go look at things on record its all there to see Hellstromm has even given you a pointer or 10. You seem bitter mate & i don't have to nor will respond to your petty attack but im probably old enough to be your father and would have outgrew basements 30 years ago if we had them in my country which we dont.Success btw is measured in many ways, i'm comforable with my life are you sure you are with yours ? Because i post longer posts than you have attn span isnt my fault. It probably never occurred to you some people work on the computer for a living so may have access more than others.

A country without basements? I would move. Anyway, I too work on the computer, but apparently just a lot more than other people. Also, it's not about my attention span. A person can only read so much junk in a day and I have better things to do.

 

[DeletedUser]

Like I said, delusion cannot be argued with. Your points are extremely biased and you give no sources.

Is there a mirror in your house?

Rule #1, when someone jumps up and claims not to be something, they usually are.

I am not much more intelligent than you.

As for the "torture" at Abu Ghraib, give me a break. It was mean but torture?

Just a minute while I look up 'waterboarding'.......................yes, apparently it's torture. What a funny ol' world we do live in.

I have no problem expressing my political views. You libs hate admitting it and will deny it to the end of time. Just man up and admit it.

I'm not American so I don't know whether I'd qualify as a 'lib' or not, but I'll 'man up' for them:- I admit that you have no problem expressing your political views.
Yeah, I think your tenuous grasp on the language let you down there.

 

[Diggo11]

Well it's been an interesting discussion guys, but we've hit the bottom of page ten, so as usual it's time for a lock. Thanks to all who participated and hope to see you in the next thread.