Civil war

DeletedUser

Thank you for proving my point.

Asterios said:
oh and one other thing there are no recorded civil war battles for the following states:

California
Arizona
Nevada

New Mexico had 2 Battles:

Glorieta Pass with Estimated Casualties: 331 total (US 142; CS 189)

and

Valverde with Estimated Casualties: 389 total (US 202; CS 187)

both from "Sibley's New Mexico Campaign"

which i would not classify as big battles as i said previously so seriously Prudhomme you should go crack your History books before you show anymore your lack of knowledge about anything.
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I have but one observation for you, since all you did with that long winded diatribe was validate everything I already said. "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
 

DeletedUser

ok ok ok guyss.... enough of the trying to out history each other (unless you want to do the rise of socialism in russia? i'd win that one :) )

i think the basic conclusion we've come to, is that a civil war or a war between coyboys and indians would be far far to complicated to do how it really happened....

this either means we scrap the idea completely (my vote :) ), or simplify the whole thing drasitcally, not worrying about historical evidence so much..
 

DeletedUser

Learn and read and now tell me an Indian can't fight back..


[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]What do you know about the Battle of Little Big Horn? You might know the story better as Custer's Last Stand. [/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]On the morning of June 25, 1876, Lieutenant Colonel George A. Custer and the 7th Cavalry charged into battle against Lakota Sioux and Northern Cheyenne Indians. Custer's orders were to wait for reinforcements at the mouth of the Little Big Horn River before attacking the Indians, but Chief Sitting Bull had been spotted nearby, and Custer was impatient to attack. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A treaty had given the Sioux exclusive rights to the Black Hills, but when gold was later discovered in the area, white miners flocked to the territory. Despite the treaty, the U.S. government ordered the Indians away from the invading settlers and back to their reservations.
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[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Custer's job was to force the Indians back to their reservations. Some of the Indians refused to leave their sacred land, and other hunters were camped in remote places and never learned of the order. The U.S. Army prepared for battle anyway. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Custer planned to attack the Indian camp from three sides, but Chief Sitting Bull was ready for them. The first two groups, led by Captain Benteen and Major Reno, were immediately forced to retreat to one side of the river, where they continued to fight as best they could. Custer was not as lucky.
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[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Custer's troops charged the Indians from the north. Quickly encircled by their enemy, Custer and more than 200 of his soldiers were killed in less than an hour. The Indians retreated two days later when the troops Custer had been ordered to wait for arrived. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Battle of Little Big Horn was a short-lived victory for the Native Americans. Federal troops soon poured into the Black Hills. While many Native Americans surrendered, Sitting Bull escaped to Canada.
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Thou they were defeated because of numbers still proves they could Kick some behind..
 

DeletedUser

right.. well id just like to say that was i beleive the only fight the indians ever won. The rest they were forced to flee, or were destroyed. And the only reason they DID win that fight was because of the stupidity of the general, and not because of their skill.. the indians outnumbered the soldiers too btw
 

DeletedUser

Prudhomme said:
I have but one observation for you, since all you did with that long winded diatribe was validate everything I already said. "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
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not my facts showed you to be the chump you truly are since you said that Stribley's campaign almost caused the south to win the war, wrong his campaign was an utter failure from go and was barely a foot note in history, you said there were civil war battles all the way to the west coast and in California, there were not the furthest west the civil war got was in New Mexico or Idaho(the Idaho Battle was between Union troops and Indians) but never in California, you said Stribley raided the Nevada Silver mines, he never even went to Nevada, so tell me how anything i said validates what you said? everything i showed and can back up with evidence shows you to be a total idiot if you want we can go there, so quit acting the fool fool.
 
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DeletedUser

i could have sworn i told you guys to stop arguing history... :)

seriously, without bringing up new battles or anything;

do you wan the idea of a civil war, or not?
 

DeletedUser

JamesWheatley said:
right.. well id just like to say that was i beleive the only fight the indians ever won. The rest they were forced to flee, or were destroyed. And the only reason they DID win that fight was because of the stupidity of the general, and not because of their skill.. the indians outnumbered the soldiers too btw
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Please i did not say they did win..I just said they could Fight back..i think i never said in any posts that they had alot of wins but is able to fight back..
 

DeletedUser

Little Big Horn was a classic example of a perfectly executed ambush, also helped Custar was wacked out of his head and wouldn't listen to his guides.
 

DeletedUser

correction

Im sorry, but superior numbers dont always mean victory. Look at the French Army at Agincourt. Despite a threefold manpower advantage the French knights were decimated by English Longbows. Witness the SCots at Culloden. If any fighting force was more powerful than the Highland Rush, but still the English won the day. Witness the Union Army in any number of battles including Bull Run, Fredricksburg, Chancellorsville. To say nothing of the British garrison at Roarke's Drift in the Zulu War.
As to your points about Custer, the man was not by any means stupid. His mission was to keep the hostile tribes from breaking contact with the encircling forces. Freely conceded, he should have waited for Terry and the support column, but when he received the report that his force had been detected, he had to make a snap judgment based on information available at the moment. If he had known that the encirclement had already been broken and the column under Crook had been attacked and turned back he might have decided otherwise. Even his move of dividing the command into three prongs might have worked, but for the arguable failure of his subordinates Benteen and Reno..
Finally, the world has known few classes of truly superior warriors. AMong them are the Zulu tribesman, the Roman legionary and the Greek Hoplite. But I have to include the Indian brave with that group because they were widely regarded as the finest light cavalry the world ever saw. In terms of conditioning, mobility and simple courage in the face of the enemy, they simply knew no equal.
 

DeletedUser

actualy while the Indians were noted for being good horse fighters the best the world had seen was the Mongolians who were bred from birth riding a horse, also the indians most times broke off when they saw the US cavalry with their thundersticks, the Indians were at a distinct disadvantage technology wise but they put up a good show for what they had.
 

DeletedUser

Prudhomme said:
Im sorry, but superior numbers dont always mean victory.
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Good call..Don't forgot Legio II Augusta how he deafeted queen boudica army with his own which queen boudica had almost 5 times the size of his army..althou counting in his knowledge of roman strategy and them being one of the greatest army before still 5 times that is such a feat..

Here is the link if you wanna read it..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica
 

DeletedUser

also don't forget the Spartans at the Battle of Thermopylea while they were still crushed their battle helped greatly for Greece to eventually win the war.

and in the US we had the Alamo a few hundred brave souls against the forces of Santa Anna's army still crushed but still doing more then was expected to do.
 

DeletedUser

Points well taken

You make very salient points. Leonidas and his 300 Spartans certainly rate a place in history as well as Travis and the 185 Men who defended the Alamo against Santa Ana and 5,000 battle hardened troops.
 

DeletedUser

Prudhomme said:
You make very salient points. Leonidas and his 300 Spartans certainly rate a place in history as well as Travis and the 185 Men who defended the Alamo against Santa Ana and 5,000 battle hardened troops.
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well didnt everyone in the Alamo die just like the spartans.
o and fyi there were actually about 2,000 greeks at that battle not just 300
 

DeletedUser

actually it was more to the tune of about 5K - 6K Greeks at the Battle of Thermopylea, but you know them Spartans they are glory hounds ;)
 

DeletedUser

Correction

Leonidas did have a number of Thespians and other allies with him, but only up to the point that the Persians were shown the path through the mountains that led them around to the rear of the Spartan position. Once that happened, the Spartans fought alone.
 

DeletedUser

Prudhomme said:
Leonidas did have a number of Thespians and other allies with him, but only up to the point that the Persians were shown the path through the mountains that led them around to the rear of the Spartan position. Once that happened, the Spartans fought alone.
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Yeah that part really kinda sucked..But i loved the ending thou when they got there revenge..3

30,000 Spartans that was in command of over 300,000 soldiers each(if i remember correctly..)really crushed the enemy that would have been..

Sweet revenge..
 
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