Dueling needs some important changes

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DeletedUser

Blitz....

That hardly is a topic whining about how the game is unfair to duelers.
It's a suggestion to add more to the game.
 

DeletedUser

***I'd have to say, that as a dueller and adventurer..the dueller is a LOT easier, and built reasonably well, can do enough mid-pay and mid XP jobs to make up the difference

Jozen, please fix your 'quotation' of me in that post. Asterisks are not a good enough indicator that you have written all through it. :mad:
 

DeletedUser

***I'd have to say, that as a dueller and adventurer..the dueller is a LOT easier, and built reasonably well, can do enough mid-pay and mid XP jobs to make up the difference

More fun? Yes.Easier? No.If you want to be a good dueler you have to be very active.And if you are that active with an adventurer account you will be much more successful.Any good trader/trapper earns lot more then a dueler.

Like I said in some of my posts, in 2 of the town I was in, top 1 or #2 contributor were duelers and they had nice clothing too from the profits they made from "raids".
I guess your town don't have many traders then?

Anyway its easier to earn money through duel in early stage.But once you start dueling experienced players who knows how to use bank it gets complicated.
 

DeletedUser

Blitz....

That hardly is a topic whining about how the game is unfair to duelers.
It's a suggestion to add more to the game.

I'm fine with adding to the game, but the proposals are unbalancing the game. I was speaking with one of the staff why changes aren't happening faster, his response was "balance" can be hard to figure out so they need to test, etc. before rolling them out. I was just trying to help out and so many duelers don't think about balance and consequences, only me me me.

If you search my posts in this forum, I am against nerfing duelers (such as the early demolish town proposal or jail time for bounty), I also don't think some of those duelers appreciate the problems other occupation face, they only see through their dueler's lense and see the unpredictable income + less targets at higher level.

More fun? Yes.Easier? No.If you want to be a good dueler you have to be very active.And if you are that active with an adventurer account you will be much more successful.Any good trader/trapper earns lot more then a dueler.


I guess your town don't have many traders then?

Anyway its easier to earn money through duel in early stage.But once you start dueling experienced players who knows how to use bank it gets complicated.

Nope, traders have problems defending themselves. Most of our residents gets dueled often, especially the higher level workers as duelers duel them either for exp and/or cash potential. I was getting dueled regularly at least 4-5 times in a day as the town I was in (since left) was in top 15 for quite a while, with high average level, attracting all kinds of duelers to come to get exp and/or cash.

It is true duelers get less targets at higher level. Look at W1 where 5 of the top 15 "normal" level players are not even in town. I talk to various players in irc or in game. Are you aware why? More than one top "normal" worker are sick and tired of being dueled constantly. One has quit (I have not asked her real reason but it was sad to hear she was waiting in her town, just so someone can kill her so she can do her jobs).

I just do not want a "super class" in this game. Duelers have deficiencies, so do workers, there is a balance in this game, destroy that fragile balance and as people figure out there is a "super class", they will go towards it, destroy this game and some game companies will then nerf that super class. I hate to see that happen.
 
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DeletedUser

read my reply Blitzkrieg

I have replied to your reply. Just to add a bit, there is bounty proposal, which I participated in that thread, support it in principle and even reduced the penalty for duelers.

Bounty is a nice way to address dueler's fluctuating income without destroy the delicate balance. Duelers can go after bounty players, kill that player and collect that guaranteed income.

Workers have more steady income/exp due to jobs (as long as they are not killed or robbed)

Duelers are at the top of the food pyramid, in exchange, have less steady income and more difficulty to find easier targets at higher level (they need to wait for workers to catch up in level and also workers don't leave town,e tc.)
 

DeletedUser

Nope, traders have problems defending themselves. Most of our residents gets dueled often, especially the higher level workers as duelers duel them either for exp and/or cash potential. I was getting dueled regularly at least 4-5 times in a day as the town I was in (since left) was in top 15 for quite a while, with high average level, attracting all kinds of duelers to come to get exp and/or cash.

It is true duelers get less targets at higher level. Look at W1 where 5 of the top 15 "normal" level players are not even in town. I talk to various players in irc or in game. Are you aware why? More than one top "normal" worker are sick and tired of being dueled constantly. One has quit (I have not asked her real reason but it was sad to hear she was waiting in her town, just so someone can kill her so she can do her jobs).

I just do not want a "super class" in this game. Duelers have deficiencies, so do workers, there is a balance in this game, destroy that fragile balance and as people figure out there is a "super class", they will go towards it, destroy this game and some game companies will then nerf that super class. I hate to see that happen.

Traders usually are low level.So unless they stupidly decide to raise their dueling level or proudly show silver in their profile they don't get dueled a lot.
And most of they traders I know put sleep in the que after high $ jobs.So if they have a good horse chances of loosing money is pretty thin.

And about getting dueled a lot you have to agree with me in real west wasn't exactly a place for soft kind of people.People knew how to defend themselves to some extent.Because once in a while there will be some guy who wants to duel him for no reason.If he don't want to duel that guy he had to run away from the town[similar to staying town less in this game].w1 is different I guess top players didn't thought they will get dueled so much.Look in the later worlds people gets dueled their too but they don't stay out of town that much.

That being said I don't want a "super class" in this game either.
 

DeletedUser

Traders usually are low level.So unless they stupidly decide to raise their dueling level or proudly show silver in their profile they don't get dueled a lot.
And most of they traders I know put sleep in the que after high $ jobs.So if they have a good horse chances of loosing money is pretty thin.

And about getting dueled a lot you have to agree with me in real west wasn't exactly a place for soft kind of people.People knew how to defend themselves to some extent.Because once in a while there will be some guy who wants to duel him for no reason.If he don't want to duel that guy he had to run away from the town[similar to staying town less in this game].w1 is different I guess top players didn't thought they will get dueled so much.Look in the later worlds people gets dueled their too but they don't stay out of town that much.

That being said I don't want a "super class" in this game either.

The chances are thin but it happens. One trader I know lost $77 eventhough the distance between silver and his town was less than 10 minutes and he went to sleep immediately. Some duelers observe, waste the time to figure out when the worker probably arrived at job and do it.

There were several times that I had narrow escape myself, if the dueler dueled me a few seconds later, he would've been able to rob me.

I just spoke to a top 10 player (in terms of exp level) in W1 and confirmed the reason he's townless is due to incessant dueling.

I want to figure out a way where dueler + worker can both prosper, right now, workers can counter and make dueling them impossible (stay out of town or die). Duelers don't realize they are like predators, when predators wipe out herbivore or force herbivore to evolve and become predators, everyone may become less well off as predators need to turn on each other instead.
 

DeletedUser

Is there really a point to this thread anymore other than the complaining aspect? I don't see a plan on how to change dueling. If there is one can someone summarize it and post it again. I've been paying attention and posting in this topic since it sprung up but after 20+ pages I have no idea anymore what its purpose is. Just saying if there isn't a specific idea attached to this then shouldn't it be in the Saloon or somewhere else?
 

DeletedUser

Is there really a point to this thread anymore other than the complaining aspect? I don't see a plan on how to change dueling. If there is one can someone summarize it and post it again. I've been paying attention and posting in this topic since it sprung up but after 20+ pages I have no idea anymore what its purpose is. Just saying if there isn't a specific idea attached to this then shouldn't it be in the Saloon or somewhere else?

There's guard job proposal, allow duelers to guard their town, if they successfully intercept enemy dueler come to duel their worker, they duel enemy first, protecting the worker.

If combine this with bounty proposal + shootout & ability to damage towns (in the process grab a portion of the damage inflicted as cash), it address dueler's gripe of lack targets, unstable income (kill bounty target and you're guaranteed a fraction of the posted bounty = no more random chance luck your target has cash)

The devil is in the detail, how do you assign formula on loot, etc. while maintain balance. Guard job will allow workers to feel safer, more willing to stay in town, probably die less, lose less to "robberies"
 

DeletedUser

Well isn't a Sheriff going to be implemented. Might that not do what the guard job proposal is set up to do. Still needs a revised summary so that the topic can get back on track and details worked out.
 

DeletedUser

The easiest solution I see is simply to have the program check class. If you're a dueller or soldier, then you can be challenged at any time (it's expected). If you're a worker, you can be challenged only if idle. If you're an adventurer, then you either have an option setting to allow/disallow non-idle duelling (while disallowed, you can't attack others) or the danger rating of the job doubles as a percentile chance a dueller will be able to "corner" and attack you while working (you're protected while idle).

There's far less to impliment this way, meaning less chance of bugs and less work for the programmers. It's also pretty well balanced for its simplicity and gives classes a bit more purpose than a few small modifiers.
 

DeletedUser

The easiest solution I see is simply to have the program check class. If you're a dueller or soldier, then you can be challenged at any time (it's expected). If you're a worker, you can be challenged only if idle. If you're an adventurer, then you either have an option setting to allow/disallow non-idle duelling (while disallowed, you can't attack others) or the danger rating of the job doubles as a percentile chance a dueller will be able to "corner" and attack you while working (you're protected while idle).

There's far less to impliment this way, meaning less chance of bugs and less work for the programmers. It's also pretty well balanced for its simplicity and gives classes a bit more purpose than a few small modifiers.

I don't think this is a good idea. Duelers already have to deal with smart workers have figured out ways to evade them. If you implement this, most of the worker and adventurer will probably select to "no duel", eliminate most of the easy targets from the duelers even more.

I don't think increase the danger rating of job is a big handicap. So far, I have taken 59x damage from transport ammo and did not even die, just to give you an idea. Your suggest will not create a lot of jobs that will suddenly kill me, although now some jobs should kill me now, such as transport ammo.

Besides, dying while on job is only bad when you do jobs with high cash income, you lose no exp nor items found while doing your job so those jobs with high exp and/or luck + high danger really is no big deal, not to mention once you die, you can't be dueled for 48 hours.
 

DeletedUser

The easiest solution I see is simply to have the program check class. If you're a dueller or soldier, then you can be challenged at any time (it's expected). If you're a worker, you can be challenged only if idle. If you're an adventurer, then you either have an option setting to allow/disallow non-idle duelling (while disallowed, you can't attack others) or the danger rating of the job doubles as a percentile chance a dueller will be able to "corner" and attack you while working (you're protected while idle).

There's far less to impliment this way, meaning less chance of bugs and less work for the programmers. It's also pretty well balanced for its simplicity and gives classes a bit more purpose than a few small modifiers.

I'll sum up my answer for this in two words:
Hell no!
 

DeletedUser

Actually I'm pretty sure from all the complaining on the forum that workers expect to be dueled.

This is just another backdoor way of getting an accept/decline option in the game. So the answer is no. It didn't fly the first 20 times it was suggested, its not going to fly now.
 

DeletedUser

Blitzkrieg: What are you referring to when you talk about increasing danger in jobs? I don't see any correlation to what I said.

Denisero: the problem isn't looking for backdoors. The problem is the fact that the game is unbalanced. There are two combat classes and two non-combat classes. If I wanted to have to fight every ten seconds, I would've picked a fighter class. It's obvious from this and many other threads that I'm far from alone in this complaint. The big problem I see is that all of the non-fighters are saying stop the imbalance, and all the fighters are saying don't stop. There's no point in having a non-combat class if you're forced to fight constantly anyway.

Either someone needs to balance out the classes and duel system, or the non-combat classes need to be removed altogether, as they serve only to fund the fighters unless the player levels his stats out-of-class and gives up any class advantages in favour of defending himself.
 

DeletedUser

The easiest solution I see is simply to have the program check class. If you're a dueller or soldier, then you can be challenged at any time (it's expected). If you're a worker, you can be challenged only if idle. If you're an adventurer, then you either have an option setting to allow/disallow non-idle duelling (while disallowed, you can't attack others) or the danger rating of the job doubles as a percentile chance a dueller will be able to "corner" and attack you while working (you're protected while idle).

There's far less to impliment this way, meaning less chance of bugs and less work for the programmers. It's also pretty well balanced for its simplicity and gives classes a bit more purpose than a few small modifiers.

Blitzkrieg: What are you referring to when you talk about increasing danger in jobs? I don't see any correlation to what I said.

Denisero: the problem isn't looking for backdoors. The problem is the fact that the game is unbalanced. There are two combat classes and two non-combat classes. If I wanted to have to fight every ten seconds, I would've picked a fighter class. It's obvious from this and many other threads that I'm far from alone in this complaint. The big problem I see is that all of the non-fighters are saying stop the imbalance, and all the fighters are saying don't stop. There's no point in having a non-combat class if you're forced to fight constantly anyway.

Either someone needs to balance out the classes and duel system, or the non-combat classes need to be removed altogether, as they serve only to fund the fighters unless the player levels his stats out-of-class and gives up any class advantages in favour of defending himself.

It's from your own post, I bolded and made the size bigger for you. The url of your post is

http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=102265&postcount=214

Err, if you check my dueling record in W1, you can see I'm not a dueler by far. However, I believe a game is better if everyone has a role to play, rather than inbalance anyone.

Right now, in W1, higher level duelers is having more problems finding targets. This is the result of

1. Most of the high dueling level character are successful duelers themselves = harder to win

2. Some of the high level workers who chose not to duel became townless. I have confirmed this with top 10 worker in the game (defined by their exp level alone, excluding dueling level). It is pretty bad as I know one of the ex-top 5, perhaps top 3 worker was simply waiting in town to be killed before she resume working because she was tired of dying while working on a job = loss of energy and effort = big waste of her time. This is partially the result of lack of good targets as at higher level, workers have to put some skills into dueling skills or else they simply become easier prey. My own solution to this when I was being dueled 4-5 times a day was to focus on non-exp jobs. My exp level ranking dropped from top 200 to top 800 now as a result. I simply waited for those duelers to gain too much rank to duel me :)

Duelers have problems of their own, until you try or have friends who are very successful duelers, you don't know the difficulty they are facing. More than one of my dueler friend told me if I can consistently get $500 / day income without premium and can also gain exp at the same time, they'll probably switch to working instead. Some top level worker with premium are earning insane amount of money a day.
 

DeletedUser

It's from your own post, I bolded and made the size bigger for you.

You did a pretty good job of completely missing what I said. Let me isolate the entire thought for you:

"or the danger rating of the job doubles as a percentile chance"

I get enough risk from high-danger jobs to be very loathe to make them more unattractive for four-hour shifts. However, giving the danger aspect another use besides simply injuring the worker by stubbing his toe (or worse) isn't necessarily a bad thing and would take advantage of an existing variable, thus making it easier to program into the game.

Err, if you check my dueling record in W1, you can see I'm not a dueler by far. However, I believe a game is better if everyone has a role to play, rather than inbalance anyone.

I fully agree. It's when a player's forced to choose between his role and his class advantages that the problem begins. I said this elsewhere. If an adventurer or worker makes $33 on a two-hour job, then a dueller comes along and takes $11, the job only paid off $22. A dueller doing an honest days' work would make $24 or more off of the same job, thus the whole point of an adventurer or worker is lost. The two classes become invalid as their advantages are moot. They must either give up their job superiority to defend themselves and thus fall behind in income or they must put up with being "pimped" and fall behind in income that way. Yet these two classes exist for the purpose of non-combat income. So if you have a class who's advantage gives them less than a class without that "advantage", is it really an advantage?

Duelers have problems of their own, until you try or have friends who are very successful duelers, you don't know the difficulty they are facing. More than one of my dueler friend told me if I can consistently get $500 / day income without premium and can also gain exp at the same time, they'll probably switch to working instead. Some top level worker with premium are earning insane amount of money a day.

Every town I belong to (five total) has their own duellers. Perhaps their levels are all too small to run into this sort of problem, or perhaps they've found an exception. The rules of conduct they generally follow have thus far done nothing to prevent them from continuing to duel successfully:

1. They buy good mounts and often travel far to find opponents without complaint.
2. If a member of our town who's not a fighter is attacked, then we go to war against the offending town, providing plenty of fair game for our fighters.
3. Town alliances give us an even largert range of targets, as attacking an allied town is synonymous with attacking us.

A good fighter will always have targets to fight. It's perfectly acceptable to fire at will during a war, and in peacetime, the fighter should have the best mount they can buy and be travelling all over, using the duelling ranks as a roadmap. It takes a lot of time, yes. But in the end, they gain far more from pursuing their own class than targetting non-fighters who'll eventually just give up or (as you pointed out) leave town for good. Worst case scenario: constant victimisation could end up leading to a shortage of non-fighters as people will simply start quitting the game and/or cease to participate in towns. And then everybody suffers
 
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