Dueling needs some important changes

[DeletedUser]

You did a pretty good job of completely missing what I said. Let me isolate the entire thought for you:

"or the danger rating of the job doubles as a percentile chance"

I get enough risk from high-danger jobs to be very loathe to make them more unattractive for four-hour shifts. However, giving the danger aspect another use besides simply injuring the worker by stubbing his toe (or worse) isn't necessarily a bad thing and would take advantage of an existing variable, thus making it easier to program into the game.



I fully agree. It's when a player's forced to choose between his role and his class advantages that the problem begins. I said this elsewhere. If an adventurer or worker makes $33 on a two-hour job, then a dueller comes along and takes $11, the job only paid off $22. A dueller doing an honest days' work would make $24 or more off of the same job, thus the whole point of an adventurer or worker is lost. The two classes become invalid as their advantages are moot. They must either give up their job superiority to defend themselves and thus fall behind in income or they must put up with being "pimped" and fall behind in income that way. Yet these two classes exist for the purpose of non-combat income. So if you have a class who's advantage gives them less than a class without that "advantage", is it really an advantage?



Every town I belong to (five total) has their own duellers. Perhaps their levels are all too small to run into this sort of problem, or perhaps they've found an exception. The rules of conduct they generally follow have thus far done nothing to prevent them from continuing to duel successfully:

1. They buy good mounts and often travel far to find opponents without complaint.
2. If a member of our town who's not a fighter is attacked, then we go to war against the offending town, providing plenty of fair game for our fighters.
3. Town alliances give us an even largert range of targets, as attacking an allied town is synonymous with attacking us.

A good fighter will always have targets to fight. It's perfectly acceptable to fire at will during a war, and in peacetime, the fighter should have the best mount they can buy and be travelling all over, using the duelling ranks as a roadmap. It takes a lot of time, yes. But in the end, they gain far more from pursuing their own class than targetting non-fighters who'll eventually just give up or (as you pointed out) leave town for good. Worst case scenario: constant victimisation could end up leading to a shortage of non-fighters as people will simply start quitting the game and/or cease to participate in towns. And then everybody suffers

I understood what you wrote, I did not bold the whole thing because I do not believe the penalty you described with your proposal is good enough.

There needs to be a balance, every feature need to consider the consequences, will it boost this class but also benefit all others so it balance out?

Your proposal allow adventurer class too much advantage. They can simply choose can't be dueled and work on jobs without worry. If the job is dangerous enough then I will do

1. Do that dangerous job last. I usually do transport ammo when my energy is quite low. If I die, not much energy is wasted.

2. Switch off can't be dueled during dangerous jobs.

Right now, in my view, duelers have a slight edge in this game but not by that much.

Duelers rule most of the game, but as smarter workers figured out ways to evade them, avoid being dueled, or quit the game, duelers life has become tougher in some respect. You cannot just take your slice of the west and view duelers as the all evil people, the robbers.

Conversely, I'm sick and tired of duelers who insist on no consequences and duelers have a very tough life. The "tough" life of a dueler tend to be a result of their successful dueling, making good targets scarce as their dueling level disparity increase + some good targets already quit the game (to be fair, being constantly dueled was only one of the reason, there were others such as boredom)

Right now, smart workers can prosper under the current system as they can plan jobs, utilize downtime to focus on my cash job (I got one of my high cash job motivation down to around 80% now as I await another dueler to kill me while I work on less rich jobs or jobs with almost no cash). Some choose townless when it's really bad, it's their choice.

Smart duelers who take care and not to rely on dueling 100% and keep their dueling levels reasonable also prosper. Like I said over and over, in two of the town I was in, the top 2 contributor both contributed over 10,000 to the town treasury and they were duelers.

To be fair, as they level up in W1 and smarter workers who knows how to keep their cash advance while the dumb ones fall further and further behind in level or learn to keep their cash, my dueler friends are considering doing cash jobs themselves as I'm slowly catching up to their in daily cash income.

Duelers due for ranking, duel for cash. Your suggestion will not affect the duelers who duel for ranking much but it'll severely negatively impact those duelers who duel for cash. I don't want that to happen.

If you don't want to be dueled so much this game already provide 2 days for you to avoid being dueled as it is.

 

[DeletedUser]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say, although I think you still don't understand the idea for the danger percentages (a job with 58% chance of danger would have a 58% chance the dueller won't find the one doing the job - that was my suggestion, although in hindsight it isn't useful simply because the workers would end up choosing low-profit jobs so they could do high-danger jobs, which would be the same disadvantage as it is now waiting for duellers).

There must be a good way to balance the system out, but it's a headache trying to find it. Non-fighters who choose to fight should be afforded no special protection from duellers, though. That's a certainty. If you want to fight, you take the bad with the good. But the ones who don't want to fight are the ones that require consideration.

Your point about there being two types of dueller (levellers and profiteers) is a very important distinction. I'll have to think about that, as I do support both types but see a serious need for some sort of restriction to stem the advantage - without reversing the field. The only thing I can think of offhand that would permit that is to make the duelling level more independant - as in a totally separate stat that begins at L1. The downside is that there are six established worlds which would be turned upside-down if everyone's stats were simply reset, and non-duellers would likely end up ranking due to previous attacks. So unless that were started in World 7, it wouldn't be very feasible.

 

[DeletedUser]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say, although I think you still don't understand the idea for the danger percentages (a job with 58% chance of danger would have a 58% chance the dueller won't find the one doing the job - that was my suggestion, although in hindsight it isn't useful simply because the workers would end up choosing low-profit jobs so they could do high-danger jobs, which would be the same disadvantage as it is now waiting for duellers).

There must be a good way to balance the system out, but it's a headache trying to find it. Non-fighters who choose to fight should be afforded no special protection from duellers, though. That's a certainty. If you want to fight, you take the bad with the good. But the ones who don't want to fight are the ones that require consideration.

Your point about there being two types of dueller (levellers and profiteers) is a very important distinction. I'll have to think about that, as I do support both types but see a serious need for some sort of restriction to stem the advantage - without reversing the field. The only thing I can think of offhand that would permit that is to make the duelling level more independant - as in a totally separate stat that begins at L1. The downside is that there are six established worlds which would be turned upside-down if everyone's stats were simply reset, and non-duellers would likely end up ranking due to previous attacks. So unless that were started in World 7, it wouldn't be very feasible.

There are things that can be done, I already thought of some ways that is probably quite balanced. There is one catch, it allows players to have "fun", at the expense of faster "leveling/progression" than the developers like.

This game compete against other games, worlds of warcraft for example, or even runescape. How many of us heard this game from www.tribalwars.net? This game attract those players who like to fight, or duel as well as "RPG non PvP" players.

Current game mechanism actually encourage cooperation. I help my dueler friends to achieve higher income and higher profit for my town as a result. No, this does not involve they duel me. It is for you to find out.

It's after talking with various players, see how successful they are, that I reached the conclusion dueler are the "I win" button in this game. However, there are problems with being a pure dueler and duerl's advantage can actually fluctuate, hence my purposeful slow level up as more of a worker.

Duelers rule in early level, raking in both exp + cash. At around mid level range, due to their high dueling level, sometimes hitting or close to level 80 (I looked around in W1 as reference, sometimes dueling level can be 80% higher than exp level), duelers are pretty much forced to fight fellow dueler and/or hybrid worker/dueler, such as Holysatan (currently #1 ranked worker on W1 and also a very mean dueler). It's a price they pay for early success, for the ease of getting both huge amounts of exp + cash from dueling (or at least I hope they did not squander their huge advantage)

Builders get decent exp early on, not as good as duelers but good enough. Both builder + workers can't compete against a good dueler in terms of exp but gradually, as duelers duel level increase and can't duel pure worker/builder due to dueling level disparity, workers + builders get skill points to pump up various skills such as construction, setting traps, hiding, trading, appearance, shooting, etc. etc. can rely on jobs to earn a decent exp + cash / day.

Spread out your skill points is good during mid level. In another 10 levels or so, I will have access to 4 jobs at 60% exp and 1 job at 70% exp. This will help me level up faster once I can achieve the stat/skill point distribution along with necessary equipment to do it. I can keep all 5 exp jobs at 100% motivation fairly easily.

Dueling seem to be more about skill points. Either you can level up and pump up dueling skill points OR you can spend money to augment your dueling skill points. It's up to you what you want to do.

I just hope the developers can hurry up with various new features that will bring more fun to this game, keep it balanced, without "leveling" up too fast as the developers fear where people will lose interest and they lose revenue. (to me, I think developer/staff need to consider changing premium price as one of the reform to make this game more attractive, like several players I talk to, why should they spend equal or more money per month on this game than WoW? I have no answer to those response)

 

[DeletedUser]

One of the things I have a love/hate relationship with in this game is the item. Clothing as a standard method of boosting stats was brilliant. It adds a fun collector aspect to the game. But all he items with their buy/sell value and no other use... I know a lot of threads have suggested uses for items, and I firmly support the idea. It brings a lot more fun into the game (as do constructive quests such as the one for the red poncho). But really, items are little more than portable savings accounts.

Pursuing more on the item usage track may prove a greater means of attracting people, as would adding some sort of optional subgame, such as finding items and then using them to build your own house in the town which you can upgrade, or having some sort of occasional tournament (maybe card games) players can sign up for in the saloon. I've been playing this game since it was one world on the US servers, and really, I'm only just now seeing the improvements trickling in (new jobs and the upcoming quest givers).

But that duelling thing's still got to be fixed before the game will be able to attract maximum interest. When I joined, duelling sounded like an option, not a mandate. That's what set it apart from all the other RPGs out there, and that's why I wanted to play and joined more than one world. Its mere existance is enough to bring in combat lovers. But what about playing up more on the non-combat for people who just like to build things and collect items? Sure there are other games for that, but a good RPG isn't a great RPG unless it has something for everyone.

 

[DeletedUser]

Dueling is fine, if it's fixed to be the way you carebears wants, then alot of people will quit.

 

[DeletedUser]

Oi, theres nothing wrong with carebares See W4 for the reference

But seriously JR is right, if you take dueling out of the game or nerf it to the extent being suggested in some threads then a lot of people will quit or endeavour to simply find ways around it. As it is people should be well aware that duelers are out there looking to prey on them, as a newb on other games the first thing I do is read the help and the forums to gain an idea of how the community behaves and also the dynamics of the game. I have yet to see someone come on here and say that an adventurer who goes down the trapper route is far to good because they get loads of cash and exp.

 

[DeletedUser]

As it is people should be well aware that duelers are out there looking to prey on them, as a newb on other games the first thing I do is read the help and the forums to gain an idea of how the community behaves and also the dynamics of the game. I have yet to see someone come on here and say that an adventurer who goes down the trapper route is far to good because they get loads of cash and exp.

It's great that you read help, and the forums.
More people should do that.

Also; I have seen some complaints about trapping beeing overpowered, and I somwhat agree. There is no reason why this skill should be superior to so many others when it comes to the outcome of single-speccing. Anyhow that is a diffrent question all together, and it's all about consequence and choice

I chose to be a good dueler on W3 and W5, thus I will not be the best moneymaker, nor will I be a bear-trapping xp-machine. And you know what?

That's fine. I knew what I chose, and I stick by it.

 

[DeletedUser]

Indeed, I am happy with my choices, not a newb here lol, just an example of things people should do before moaning about things

Simply throwing the trapping thing in as an example of other things people could complain about but don't

 

[DeletedUser]

Oi, theres nothing wrong with carebares See W4 for the reference

But seriously JR is right, if you take dueling out of the game or nerf it to the extent being suggested in some threads then a lot of people will quit or endeavour to simply find ways around it. As it is people should be well aware that duelers are out there looking to prey on them, as a newb on other games the first thing I do is read the help and the forums to gain an idea of how the community behaves and also the dynamics of the game. I have yet to see someone come on here and say that an adventurer who goes down the trapper route is far to good because they get loads of cash and exp.

I used to think trapping is too powerful but that was back in Sep. 2008. It's much better to re-spec or raise your shooting instead as many high difficulty jobs use both setting traps + shooting. Setting traps is better as a worker but then you become too easy of a prey. I would much rather pump up my shooting, after I make enough exp + cash from setting traps then focus on setting traps alone. I don't mind being dueled, but I prefer to at least wound my attacker a bit

 

[DeletedUser]

Denisero: the problem isn't looking for backdoors. The problem is the fact that the game is unbalanced. There are two combat classes and two non-combat classes. If I wanted to have to fight every ten seconds, I would've picked a fighter class. It's obvious from this and many other threads that I'm far from alone in this complaint. The big problem I see is that all of the non-fighters are saying stop the imbalance, and all the fighters are saying don't stop. There's no point in having a non-combat class if you're forced to fight constantly anyway.

Either someone needs to balance out the classes and duel system, or the non-combat classes need to be removed altogether, as they serve only to fund the fighters unless the player levels his stats out-of-class and gives up any class advantages in favour of defending himself.

Don't you think you are exaggerating a bit when you say you are dueled every 10 seconds? I'm sure if you got hit by 2 or 3 duelers around the same time you'd be knocked out and then enjoy 48 hours of duel free play. Please don't exaggerate to make your point seem relevant.

You say the game is unbalanced and then say there are 2 combat classes and 2 non-combat classes. So far that seems balanced. Non-fighters and not all of them, do complain about an imbalance. Fighting classes, not all of them do say the system is balanced. What the fighter classes also say is don't take away our profession that we chose and if you are going to change it make it balanced for all. To simply abolish any of the classes because some people view it as unfair is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

There really is no such thing as a non-combatant class. There are classes that do not receive combat advantages. This does not bar them from distributing skill points so they can be an effective dueler or into defensive skills so they can be an effective defender.

Moral of the story is: You chose your class and you chose how to spec it. Don't complain now if you didn't think of the disadvantages while drooling over the advantages.

 

[DeletedUser]

One more thing to toss into the arguement.

If dueling is abolished / nerfed then I want a full free respec otherwise you completely screw me over on W4

 

[DeletedUser]

Meh. What kind of Old West would it be without dueling? Might as well call it Old East and we can sit here and have shops and be immigrants trying to survive while working for pennies a week and living in a tenement. Doesn't sound like much fun to me.

 

[DeletedUser]

Duelling is an important part of the game. Despite John Rose's insistance that all of us who want a balanced duelling system are "carebears" (sorry, John, a carebear would want NO fighting, and most of us are saying the total opposite), it's still a very valid problem. The four classes were designed so that people could be different things and each serves as some sort of benefit to the game as a whole. As the duelling system is, however, the fighter classes have a distinct advantage. It's rather pathetic to tell someone "becuae you want to be a worker and actually work, you have no right to complain about being attacked". If they wanted to be a fighter, then wouldn't they have chosen soldier or dueller? This is a no-brainer.

I'm sick of all of the destructive input in these threads. If you're that scared of a balanced system, then quit the game. For everyone else who wants a duelling system that is balanced and fun for all involved, please keep brainstorming and ignore all the paranoid duellers who think you're trying to steal their bullyboy thunder or help raise people who may start picking on THEM. This is a game. Let's make it a fun game, and that means balance. If you can't think of this as just a game, then you really shouldn't be playing.

 

[DeletedUser]

As the duelling system is, however, the fighter classes have a distinct advantage.

WHat bloody advantage?
Soldier is the ONLY class that recieves a direct class bonus related to winning duels, and that is the tactics bonus wich may, or may not apply depending on the chosen specc of the soldier. Further more, it ONLY counts whilst defending.

If you want to complain, then come with some valid complaints. All you've done thus far is whine and ramble about the unfairness of it all with little perspective on how this affects teh duelers.

 

[DeletedUser]

The one advantage I can think of is that in order to do well in duels, they just have to put their skills and attributes into dueling skills. In order for non-dueling people to protect themselves, they have to take skills and attributes away from their prefered areas to put into dueling skills.

The fact that their dueling level tends to be a much higher level than their experience level means that they have less skills to build up their characters though, so it does balance things out somewhat (except against pure builders, trappers, etc.)

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually duelers receive 10% more cash in duels AND have 20% increase in speed.

 

[DeletedUser]

The one advantage I can think of is that in order to do well in duels, they just have to put their skills and attributes into dueling skills. In order for non-dueling people to protect themselves, they have to take skills and attributes away from their prefered areas to put into dueling skills.

The fact that their dueling level tends to be a much higher level than their experience level means that they have less skills to build up their characters though, so it does balance things out somewhat (except against pure builders, trappers, etc.)

Who have benefits in other areas.

Actually duelers receive 10% more cash in duels AND have 20% increase in speed.

And what do adventurers get? 20% extra chance to find items?

Workers get 5% more exp from all jobs?

I think the things I have quoted are correct, so surely the benefits duelers get are offset by the benefits other classes get?

As to the speed what other class has to range as far as duelers? How does the bonus speed on the map increase their ability to duel? All it means is they can get there faster.

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually duelers receive 10% more cash in duels AND have 20% increase in speed.

Explain me exactly how these two give them any advantage in winning the duel.

That's right, they don't.

 

[DeletedUser]

err just saying...

increase in speed is just 10%, it's motivation that's 20% (which should be since we do our living by dueling. otherwise we be just shooting at old tin cans)

skillpoints u add to help protect you in dueling also helps u in jobs and quests

 

[DeletedUser]

Dueling motivation virtualy ensures you up your duel lvl quicker, thus putting you out of range of the easy targets. In that regard, it can hardly be called an advantage.
Although, I think it is awesome in regards of extra xp over time.