What is your opinion on "abortion" ??

DeletedUser

I see, so the rebuttal is that a fetus is not a parasite...

I'll just repost:

Hellstromm said:
The problem here is thinking that religion has the ability to determine biological factors, when it clearly doesn't even bother and is just posed as an excuse by particular people who interpret the Bible to serve their niche' mentality, their personal stances.

The error in viewing this whole thing is thinking it's a tug of war between right to life and women's right to choose what they do to their body. The real issue, the real debate, should be (and for all intensive purposes, actually is) about the available scientific evidence (the data).

The fetus is 100% dependent upon the host. It cannot be cared for once it is extricated from the uterus. No amount of education will ensure the fetus can fend for itself. It is effectively a parasite that is oftentimes perceived by the host body as a foreign object, which results in health issues or death for the fetus and/or the host.

Nobody likes to think they were once bloodsucking leeches, but hey... eventually they grow up to be bloodsucking teenagers, suckling off the nipples of their parents' paychecks to obtain their free education, Ipod, cellphone and BMW, and posting their obtuse conclusions on the net as if somehow their meager education provides deeper insight and greater comprehension than those who invested decades into earnestly researching the various issues being routinely debated on pedestals of stubborn ignorance in these, and other, forums on the internet.

Another major problem with these debates is a failure to look at consequence, in that women seeking abortions will still obtain them, either illegally or elsewhere and via dangerous conditions. Numbers show the death/injury rate of illegally obtained abortions is immense. Making abortion illegal significantly increases the mortality rate.

That's the big problem with this type of debate. It's a mass of emotional appeals, almost totally lacking in concrete evidence and not once touching upon consequence, the legal cases, nor the scientific research that have set precedence on these issues.
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Hellstromm said:
I think that what often happens when a woman doesn't consult the man, are instances in which the man gets his gourd off and then blows off the woman. He conquered the prize, as it were, and has moved on. In such instances, even if the man wants to be part of the decision-making process, he shouldn't be given the time of day. Regardless, a man should not have equal measure on such decisions, because it is not his body, it his not his life, it is not him that will, by society's expectations, be required to hang around and care for the child.

So yes, if you do some huge restructuring of society, make men equally responsible for the upbringing/rearing of a child, make it unavoidable and mandatory, and include in this the stipulation that a man cannot then abuse the woman or the child, sure...

Good luck on that.

In the meantime, we deal with reality. And reality states it is the woman that is left to deal with all the consequences, whilst the man runs around without a condom, impregnating as many women as his heart desires, and then gets the fun of bragging that he has 15 kids, none of which he ever met, let alone supports.

And don't think I'm being off-handed about this. I have assisted plenty of women through family law, dealing with fathers who work very hard to find a way out of child support, and who see their child once every few months because they don't want "it" to disrupt their lives. And my anecdotal evidence is firmly supported by statistics. So if and when you find a means to change the fundamentals of our societies, making it 100% equal responsibility, in care, feeding, education and financial support, for the child, we could revisit this issue about a man deserving authority in what happens to a woman's body, and her life.

Even then, I truly doubt I would lean in favor of allowing a man equal measure, because it's not his body, not his physical scars, not his life that is endangered. It is, and it should remain, the sole discretion of the woman whose life is endangered by the process of pregnancy, as to whether she goes to term, or to abort.
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Let the man argue with himself whilst he leaves the women alone to deal with the hardship imposed upon them by hormonal irresponsibility.
 

DeletedUser

Justin Michael said:
Well, I'll just call and say "Abortion is murder! The next generation is all that matters."
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If you rely cared about the next generation you would be working for family planing, a change of a economic/political system that demands that the next generation be 10% larger then the previous one to keep things working the way they working today.
Earth resources are running out, deeper drilling for oil and water, fracturing for gas. Every raw material is getting harder to come by.
Of course, with family planing people in poor countries might actually get a voice in matters that involve their resources.
You are irresponsible, just like the father and mother who decides its a good idea with a twelfth kid in a two room apartment.
 
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DeletedUser

John Rose said:
Try again when you actually have an argument instead of a mere opinion.
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I'm not going to listen to you.

You have a fit every time someone posts an entire article. However, I wanted to make reference to the article because IT does a good job at arguing the point. So read it or read me.

sweede said:
If you rely cared about the next generation you would be working for family planing, a change of a economic/political system that demands that the next generation be 10% larger then the previous one to keep things working the way they working today.
Earth resources are running out, deeper drilling for oil and water, fracturing for gas. Every raw material is getting harder to come by.
Of course, with family planing people in poor countries might actually get a voice in matters that involve their resources.
You are irresponsible, just like the father and mother who decides its a good idea with a twelfth kid in a two room apartment.
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So, are you doing your part by exterminating the lower class? That is what the elitists want. You are scum to them, and so is most everyone else. They see you as a parasite.

But, again, let me ask what you are doing about it, in accordance with your world view. My world view is different than yours; and I do as much a I can to fulfill my part in it. My world view is that all are created equal by God. However, yours is a much less-loving world view; so, tell me, what are you doing?

Democrats and Republicans are elitists. The Democrats want to exterminate the lower class through population control; the Republicans through war. All this propaganda about women's rights or the spread of democracy is a bunch of bull.

TJ Tuttle said:
So since the next generation is all that matters...you don't.
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By one way of looking at it, you are correct. I will have children some day, and my life will be devoted to them. And if for some reason, I had to die for them, I would.
 
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DeletedUser

Justin Michael said:
By one way of looking at it, you are correct. I will have children some day, and my life will be devoted to them. And if for some reason, I had to die for them, I would.
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Yeah, I thought the same thing when I was your age. Silly me.

Life looks so simple when you're young, but real life doesn't play out so simple, and things get convoluted to the point you no longer can hold to such simple notions. What is right in your eyes is not right in the eyes of the more experienced of persons, those who have actually encountered the trials and tribulations, who don't live under their parent's roof, who loved and lost, starved and fought, struggled through hardships both imposed and self-imposed. So when I hear this notion of devotion, particularly from a young man, I wonder just how long they'll manage when they end up impregnating a woman they really have no inclination to spend the rest of their life with.
 

DeletedUser

I say we should have abortion completely legal in all ways as long as both parties of a couple that is 'together' accept.
If the father wants the abortion but the mother not, then court.
If the mother wants it but the father not, then court.
If they both want an abortion let them have it.
If the mother is a single mother, she alone only needs to decide, and the father can't make a decision in the matter.
 

DeletedUser

You can try to paint me as whatever you like, Hellstromm. That doesn't change who I am. I will not have sex with a woman until I am married to her -- I am 20 years old and haven't screwed up yet.

I will be devoted to my children; it can be done. My parents and many other older people that I look up to have done it.
 

DeletedUser

Justin Michael said:
I'm not going to listen to you.

So, are you doing your part by exterminating the lower class? That is what the elitists want. You are scum to them, and so is most everyone else. They see you as a parasite.
But, again, let me ask what you are doing about it, in accordance with your world view. My world view is different than yours; and I do as much a I can to fulfill my part in it. My world view is that all are created equal by God. However, yours is a much less-loving world view; so, tell me, what are you doing?
Democrats and Republicans are elitists. The Democrats want to exterminate the lower class through population control; the Republicans through war. All this propaganda about women's rights or the spread of democracy is a bunch of bull.
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I never mentioning "exterminating" any "lower" classes. The "elite" doesn't want to "exterminate" the "lower" classes! It's their gun-fodder, taxpayer, consumers and follower of whatever god they fancy. They want more of them, that's the problem, and you're a part of it
What am I doing?
I have no kids on my own. devote my time to the younger in my extended family, it's called love. My grocery cart very seldom hold's a single "refined" product. I try to bye the absolute minimum of stuff produced by corporations. And I do not go to church and teach evolution.
What are you doing? Pray? Wave the flag and have a yellow sticker on your SUV? :eek:
 
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DeletedUser

Justin Michael said:
I am 20 years old and haven't screwed up yet.
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Plenty of time for that, hehe.

Justin Michael said:
You can try to paint me as whatever you like, Hellstromm. That doesn't change who I am. I will not have sex with a woman until I am married to her
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Oh, c'mon, let's be honest, you're not getting married. ;)

But seriously, if you're able to refrain from intercourse before marriage, assuming you eventually do get married, what guarantee do you have that you'll remain married? The divorce/separation rates in this time and age is not something to casually dismiss with a righteous stance. Religion may play a large part in your life, but you are human. So while I commend your hopeful attitude, it is just that, hopeful.

Regardless, your pristine perceptions of marriage and household are yours, and are in your picket fence notion of the world. But the rest of the world doesn't live in your fantasy.
 

DeletedUser5046

im against it...

pro-life . . . besides even if they make it legal or something... it wont change te fact tat it will also have a big big factor for te mother's health

btw... JM dun make it a big deal ^_^ i think tat's better for you to reserve it for someone special
 
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DeletedUser

I have seen someone mention orphanages earlier within this topic. Have you been to so called "orphanages" in poorer countries? A thoughtless remark that was.

A young, intelligent woman (that obviously did something very stupid) falls pregnant. Up to that point she might have had a bright future ahead of her. She is now forced to stop school and most end up eventually taking a low paying job because they lack education. Most never recover from this. A life of poverty changes peoples values. Not because they want to, but due to circumstance. They do not always have the support of family or the father or anyone else.

But how does one explain this? One of the ten commandments say "Thou shall not commit murder". It also says "Thou shall not steal". Both these are in the Ten Commandments but does not rank them in severity of sin. How many people will download countless mp3's, movies, etc that are pirated copies. This is stealing too. "Thou shall not bear false witness against you neighbor. How many people tell even a "white lie", every day, yet they have commit one of the sins in the Ten Commandments. Now the person has commit a sin as serious as murder. The bible does not say lying is not as serious as murder. They are both placed on the same list. It is not the Bible that made lying a lesser sin than murder, it was man. In spite of that, many people still have a problem with an abortion just so a woman might be able to have a better future.

Should the father be told about the pregnancy? If she is certain he loves her and will be able to marry and support her, tell him. Otherwise, he does not have to know because he will just complicate things and declare false love which might once again end up in disaster. I have seen it too many times.

I now invite all the people against abortion to rethink your position considering this issue.

My own view on abortion? I believe it depends on how the individual feels about it simply because they must live with the consequences of their actions. And we as men should not have say in a woman's decision to have an abortion if this person does not affect us. It is no business of ours and we do not carry babies in our bellies and in most cases, we do not have to look after the baby. We have no clue.
 
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DeletedUser5046

Al Cummins... not everyone in this forum believe of the existence of GOD but i think its not a bad idea to say something about it.

the fact that you are not carrying a baby in your belly is one reason you dun understand why we insist on agreeing with abortion. as i have said, it will affect on the mother's health if she try to have an abortion whether it is successful or not. another thing is not only physical but also emotional, i may not have an experience on it but hearing a lot from what's going on around me is enough fact that it hits so much emotionally.

another thing, its true that it depends on a certain person on how they would feel about it and with live the consequences BUT how about thinking what shouldnt be done first so they wont regret it?

crying over a spilled milk isnt a good idea.. but abortion on the other hand isnt something you cant rethink right? there are lots of organization/institution who are willing to help women undergoing a doubt in carrying a baby, its one call that may change their way of thinking. . .
 

DeletedUser

Just to correct you angeliaialiaialiaahial, there is actually more risk in carrying to full term than there is to having a "legal" abortion. Alternatively, making abortion illegal will not prevent someone who wants an abortion from obtaining one, which will mean that person would be subjected to great risks, as illegal abortions are usually performed by unskilled persons in unsanitary conditions.

So, if it's an issue of morality, that's fine, debate away. But if it's an issue of legality, keep it legal.
 

DeletedUser5046

alrighty hellstrom...my bad

I think legality of abortion will lead for any girl to think of 'doing it' and ask for abortion if she is positive of being pregnant. In that case, physical health may not be at risk...but how about their mental reasoning? Especially if they are near to any men who are after them. There might also be a large chance of abuse.

anyway i didnt ask if you are Al and not all Christian are against it probably because most Christian did have or is thinking of having an abortion. I think the Catholic church is against it because of their religious belief about life as a sacred gift. I hope we could have any links or anyone who could put a religious idea about this issue...and so about education.

 

DeletedUser1121

angelaiah013 said:

anyway i didnt ask if you are Al and not all Christian are against it probably because most Christian did have or is thinking of having an abortion.
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That is a pretty bold statement to make. Could you back it up with facts?
 

DeletedUser5046

DeletedUser

Hellstromm said:
The divorce/separation rates in this time and age is not something to casually dismiss with a righteous stance. Religion may play a large part in your life, but you are human. So while I commend your hopeful attitude, it is just that, hopeful.

Regardless, your pristine perceptions of marriage and household are yours, and are in your picket fence notion of the world. But the rest of the world doesn't live in your fantasy.
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Nobody's perfect in the strict sense of the word (they all mess up in some areas, but not necessarily this one), but I know a lot of folks that have kept themselves within marriage, and kept to one marriage. Don't say it doesn't happen or that it isn't likely.
 

DeletedUser1121

angelaiah013 said:
http://www.silk.net/RelEd/abortion.htm


http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/The-...rtion-and-family-planning-policies-12787.html


here is some religious statements

i actually have acquaintances who experienced abortion which are all in the same religion (Christian/Catholic) in my past workplace. Maybe its hard to believe if it is a verbal fact..but i know what i saw before she undergoes abortion.
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You gave a lot of information, but not an answer to my question.

A quick search learns me that there are proximately 1 billion christian/catholic people around the world.
Please show me where i can find the numbers that prove that the majority of them had an abortion or wanted one, like you said in the post i quoted.

Thinking that most christian people want an abortion just based on the fact that you know a few who did, doesn't make your argument valid.
 
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