Western Unity vs City of Lost Angels

DeletedUser

It doesn't take two sides to start a war, but it does take two sides to end one. Treaties or NAP's are only as good as the word of the people making them. Both sides can easily reach a NonAggression Pact, if they so desire. The trick will be seeing who honors their word. And the world(5) is watching...
 

DeletedUser

I've been asked again to post a diplomatic mail out here, as Jasper has blocked telegrams from Kudra. Considering Lost Angels has only 3 people who would need to withdraw (Jasper himself, Chezzy, and Daniel Clancy), this may be a fine time to start making things happen.

Mantell, (cc: Jasper Stone)

With all due respect, you and Jasper need to get on the same page. What he outlines as peace options we've been offered (see external forum post), and what you've communicated to me are VASTLY different. The conditions don't match.

You're the diplomat over there. Jasper posted on the external forum stating that several options for peace have been offered to us, but that is not true. I haven't received any offer of peace, other than the "victory conditions" you outlined to me in one telegram, to which I replied.

Jasper says we were offered the chance to have a "replacement town" built elsewhere to the same level...but when you mentioned that to me you also said that option was not feasible because we had grown our town too much. You can see the point total that Hotel Inspectors has...in addition, there's currently a balance of slightly over 10K in the town treasury.

Jasper also mentions the option of DCD taking over our town, along with a whole list of conditions that vary vastly from what you communicated to me. You never said anything about us just being able to shop there. In fact, you said that DCD could take over Hotel Inspectors and that we could remain as residents with DCD's permission...who as our allies, they would allow. That is why we replied that asking us to basically just change the flag made no sense and shouldn't matter if we're all still here anyway.

I've made it more than clear that we're open to going about our business as we've both proven our points and neither side can realistically say at this point that they are gaining or losing anything as it currently stands...I've been going about my business as usual for over a week now myself, but at least you two need to talk and make sure whatever offers you have coincide (and that I actually receive them)...because right now they do not.

Just to repeat very clearly our peace offer is this:

1. We're willing to withdraw our guys at an agreed upon time of withdrawal for your guys and issue a complete cease fire. (anything less than a complete cease fire, such as random duels, would likely just ignite things again.)

2. We either keep Hotel Inspectors, or you build us a town (location of our choosing but outside of your square)to the same level with the same treasury deposit level to replace it. (one of you could join Hotel Inspectors to verify the current treasury balance total). DCD likely wouldn't even want a town built so far away from their main cluster, but again, that is our hard earned investment. If you hadn't built Greater Athens on our doorstep, the issue of Hotel Inspectors wouldn't exist period. Asking us to relinquish the town and receive nothing in return is asking too much considering that your actions brought about it's existence to begin with.

You'd already agreed that Jasper's telegram threatening us was not a good idea, and that was all we'd asked for, so we're fine there.

Right now we just need you guys to get on the same page...because what Jasper wrote and what you've communicated to me in prior mails does not mesh and rather than post your mails to me out on the forum verbatim, I'd prefer to settle this in game.

Please acknowledge and respond, because as it stands right now, I've tried to keep the lines of communication open and have been getting zero response lately. You cannot in good faith continue to cast the blame for the continuance of this situation our way when you fail to respond, and Jasper has my mail blocked. I believe we've displayed some flexibility on our part, now it's up to you.

Thanks for your time,

Kudra

(This letter in it's entirety has been posted on the external forum since that is my only mechanism of communicating with Jasper)
Click to expand...
 

DeletedUser

Yes, I blocked Kudra, long after Kudra first blocked me, when Kudra posted his offensive profile. At that point it was obvious the two of us would never be able to communicate in a constructive manner. I don't fault Kudra for originally blocking me, I admit our telegrams had long since become useless, we just disagree on who started be insulting and rude, but frankly it doesn't matter.

I do however appologize if the options I listed here were not communicated to you. We had talked about them on the internal forums, and it was my thought they had, though you do admit the idea of DCD running the town was indeed communicated to you. Neither idea had been fleshed out, but it's clear we'd need more than just the basic agreement. For example if we build you a town somewhere it would have to be clear that neither of us would later be allowed to build a town near the other in the future. (we'd have to agree on what "near" meant, but I'd assume on the same grid) The spirit of the agreement would also prohibit either of us from building one right on the border of the grid or otherwise trying to circumvent this. Basicly this is a restraining order for both sides.

IF DCD was given ownership of the town (and they would have to want it) your men (or at least the few that have gained quite an unfavorable reputation) would have to not be members that shouldn't be difficult as if we're not at war there would be no reason for them to be there. You of course would still be free to shop there or whatever else you and DCD agree to. In this case the restraining order above would still apply to both towns.

The idea here is not just to end this war for the time being, but to take steps to insure fighting does not break out in the future. I beleive Mantell's playing time right now is sporadic and spotty, but we will do our best to "get on the same page".
 

DeletedUser

Well, if Mantell is not able to act as diplomat at this time and you would like to see progress made here, then you should unblock Kudra and contact her directly. We see no need to carry out negotiations out here on the game forum.
 

DeletedUser

Jasper,

I'm more than willing to hash out an agreement with you since Mantell is traveling. I will ask for your patience and understanding, however, as I've continued to battle some health issues and haven't been online as much. I will try to reply as promptly as possible, but there could be come delay in my responses.

I'd just as soon handle this myself, though, (thanks for your part Alobar) because as a female, I think you and I are better off discussing this and keeping the testosterone impact to a minimum as we go forward.

I skimmed your reply on the forum, but I think it's time to turn the focus in game. While I did block you from mail, I had informed Mantell that I had unblocked you awhile back in the interest of working things out.

I agree completely that we just need to take the appropriate steps to stay out of each other's way entirely, and I think we can come to some agreeable terms.

I'll likely not be around again (I need some rest) until late this evening, but what I would initially suggest is a complete withdrawal from each other's town while we hash this out. We could leave simply a couple of our builders over in Hotel Inspectors to hold the town until other arrangements could be made once we come to terms....understanding, of course, that not everyone is online at the same time or even online every day to move out of Hotel Inspectors, and that invites to other towns would have to be issued, travel & relocation, etc.

We can think of a couple of different options to replace Hotel Inspectors, but right now I need some rest.

In the meantime, I am taking your reply to mean that you are serious about discussing the issues and coming to terms, so I am going to ask Alobar to have everyone withdraw from your town as an act of good faith of our part. I will just assume that you agree with me on this point until or unless I hear otherwise and we can continue this conversation and negotiations in game.

Sound reasonable?

Kudra
 

DeletedUser

WOW; this is a story for the times; wars are very unproductive no matter what side your on...maybe it's time to let this go

Will
 

DeletedUser

Wars are quite productive for many people here at The West. People gain experience and dueling levels quickly. Towns are mobilized and the the spirit of camaradarie is high. Being a part of a well planned attack is similar to being on a sports team. High fives all around if it goes well.

That's why we see so many of them; They're good for the game when they're fairly evenly matched.
 

DeletedUser

The issue with wars in the west, is you have to have a goal in mind in a way to achieve it, or some thing that constitutes victory, otherwise the war will be very unproductive and bog down and stagnate your town.
 

DeletedUser

Kudra, we both disagree as to whom was rude and insulting first in our original telegrams. I think we both can find common ground to solve our current delima. I however have found these public forums seem to change the demeanor of our talks for the better, and certainly keep us both honest. I see no reason not to resolve things here if the forum admin doesn't mind. If you prefer to talk privately in the game you can wait for Mantell to return, though I can't say for certain how long that will be, or I can conduct talks with someone else with whom I do not have a hostile relationship with on multiple worlds now.

Please let me know which options you can think of for Hotel Inspecters since we both seem to be on the same page about staying out of each others ways, and if you have any problems with the options I listed.
 

DeletedUser

I've already mailed all leaders of -WU- to withdraw from your town at the request of Kudra, as her act of good faith in moving forward. Just unblock the woman, Jasper.
 

DeletedUser

Well the objective was to get you guys out of EP, everything else was just in the middle...so the deal should be done now
 
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DeletedUser

With respect, Jasper, I think we reacted badly to each other's demeanor. We're both human and neither of us is entirely innocent nor at entirely at fault.

I've made it clear that I've set that aside, said so to Mantell, and unblocked you from my mail ages ago. I also went out on a limb as an act of good faith, and had requested all of our fighters to withdraw from Lost Angels without awaiting a reply from you ....a little faith on your part in return would be appreciated, also as an act of good faith.

My tone and demeanor shall remain the same, whether I post here in the external, or mail you in game via telegram. You are welcome, if you wish, to post every future mail I send you, verbatim, out here on the external if you wish....I have no problem with that, but since we are the primary interested parties in all of this, then I shall be happy...more than happy, to continue and move forward with peace negotiations with either yourself or Mantell in game.

I extend to you my word on that, and I assume you are also more than capable of controlling your demeanor in game, but as I stated before, I'm not entirely well right now, so your cooperation in handling this in game so that I am not constantly having to check the external forum all the time for a reply that might not even be there, would be greatly appreciated.

Please contact me in game and we can get on with this.

Kudra
 

DeletedUser

Jasper Stone said:
The issue with wars in the west, is you have to have a goal in mind in a way to achieve it, or some thing that constitutes victory, otherwise the war will be very unproductive and bog down and stagnate your town.
Click to expand...

Quite true. Only an idiot would start a war without a clear exit strategy...
 

DeletedUser

Look, I'm not trying to be difficult here. I have stopped attacking your people for the time being, and I'll ask my fighters to do the same and let them know what you have done. I see no differance to talking here or in the game, only that every time I have attempted to communicate with you in game it has gone badly. Your profile riddled with crude insults about me did not endear me to you either. If you wish to lead negotiations for WU then we can do them here. I'm sorry you are feeling ill, but I'm sure you can navigate to this site and post, I know this may take up 12 seconds of your time if I have not posted a response, but in the interest of peace I think it is worth it. If you are so against posting in a public forum I did list other options. I'm still looking for a resoponse to the question I posted earlier.

Please let me know which options you can think of for Hotel Inspecters since we both seem to be on the same page about staying out of each others ways, and if you have any problems with the options I listed.
 

DeletedUser

We've bent to meet you halfway, now it's your turn to do the same...because in spite of your intentions to not be difficult, that's exactly what you're doing. Between that, and the fact that you're still parked at one of our towns long after you could have traveled home (as well as Daniel Clancy), only serves to make me question just how genuine you are in your desires to work through this, or if you are simply intentionally delaying things to allow yourself some backup (since right now, it's just the two of you, as chezzy is already making his way home).

We've already withdrawn giving you the benefit of the doubt that your intentions are genuine, and not only have you been given our word that civil tongues will be used in further communications, it's already been shown here to be the case. I'll even go a step farther and remove my comments about you from my profile, and suggest to Kudra that she do the same (another act of good faith). It happens in-game, or it simply doesn't happen. There is nothing unreasonable about that. As Will pointed out our main objective was met some time ago, and we're certainly not being bogged down by this so the ball truly is in your court here. If it's really what you want, then make it happen.
 

DeletedUser

as alobar said i was on my way home because of what has been discussed, although i personally have really enjoyed this fighting i understand that not everyone has and would not like this to go on till the end of time, so i was a good boy and left.

however i wasnt entirely trusting of your towns word for what ever reason(i really didnt wanna be ko'd during this ceasefire just incase it broke) so i hotel hopped home just to test the waters and was attempted to be dueled twice by Al Phaque in the 10-15 min gaps of walking home between hotels. he is clearly online to do this and im sure you will come up with generic post of not everyone reads the forums straight away blah blah. i have let you know and am now putting my trust in this ceasefire that it will not happen again.

i think this shows why we dont want you to have a town 6 mins away from us and why your "gesture of good faith" means very little when you can still hit any of our member in 16 mins instead of 10 really makes your gesture almost meaningless as even during ceasefire i was still a target and if you ever did decide to break it(i am talking under the stretched assumption that al phaque didnt realise a ceasefire was in place) then you have a huge advantage over us as it will take us 3 hours to reach your main village.

disclaimer: these are my personal views and oppinions and not necessarily the views or oppinions of the city of lost angels, i will also support any action my town takes towards peace even if i do not agree personally

P.S. not quite sure why it cant be discussed on here because
1. saying it has been friendly on here means nothing as them's the rules on here anyway and a persons post would just be removed or person banned if anyone tried to not be nice
2. it keeps the treaty archived for future reference by all preventing any misunderstandings later down the line
3. if i was an outsider or a new player to the game reading the forums this would be a nice read for the experienced player and a nice window into how much emotion, time and interaction can go into this game aswell as case study as to the advantages and disadvantages of being in a town and possibly picking dueler or soldier character classes(although this last point a much lesser extent) which i think as experienced players ourselves we owe it these new players to keep the game growing
 
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DeletedUser

First to Chezzy...

Well, two attempted duels on me would have pissed me off too, so I can't say that I blame you for feeling that way, but sometimes it does take a bit for everyone to read their mail and/or their forums to become aware of the cease fire, nor am I aware of the timing of these two attempts and our first mailing about the cease fire.

I simply ask that you extend a bit of trust, hard as that might be, and I'm glad you used some caution. Many of us, like you, have also enjoyed the engagement, but I also understand that our non-fighting residents on both sides probably do not share that view.

I do have copies of Alobar's notifications to all parties, but I also, after reading your post, wrote to both Parmalee and Francescothe French of EL Paso to once again insure that all EP residents are notified of the cease fire both via forum posts and circular mail, so I am doing the best I can here.

Kudra Today at 1:11 PM Parmalee...I wrote this to francesco earlier, but I need you to act on this too as I think you're online more.

Please reply that all EP towns have posted the cease fire with Lost Angels in their forums and that ALL residents of every town has been send a circular mail so that NO ONE has an excuse for breaking this cease fire and saying they didn't know.
******************


Kudra Today at 1:07 PM
Al Phaque twice tried to duel Chezzy since the withdraw was announced. Now in fairness I must assume he had not read his mail yet, but please to notify him and all your residents again of the cease fire with Lost Angels....both by posting in all of your town's forums and via circular mail to every single resident.

I suggested to Lost Angels that if either side continues to have residents breaking the cease fire going forward once we have notified EVERYONE via circular mail and forum posts, that both sides (them and us) would permanently dismiss those parties from our towns.

I'm sure we all agree, that peace can never be achieved without the cooperation of all, and some extension of trust. Breaks in that trust will only serve to further deteriorate the situation.

Thanks,

Kudra
 
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