U.S. And Mexico-Immigrants

DeletedUser

the simple fact is that immigration reform is needed


thats reforming the process for becoming a US citizen

however liberals have taken to using the term to only mean amnisty


there needs to be a legitimate yet affordable way to become a citizen but we do NOT need to offer blanket amnisty when we do it
 

DeletedUser22575

First I would like to remind everyone that unless your a Native American all of our ancestors were an immigrant to this country at one time, some families more recent than others.

The majority of this country was in fact stolen from other people and nations. Genocide was committed against the Indians, the Louisiana Purchase was bought from France during the Napoleonic Wars transferring it by secret treaty from Spain to France after Napoleon had installed his brother as King of Spain if I remember correctly.

As more information is released it has began to appear that both the 1846 war against Mexico and the acquisition of California were in fact land grabs instigated by the US.

Irregardless of how it was acquired, it is ours now.

However despite the fact that we in most cases just stole the land which most don't know, or care about, one thing has remained constant, people from all over the world have come here to make a new and better life for themselves and their families.

All of this political rhetoric of conservative/liberal "position labels" needs to end and there needs to be true immigration reform.

Mexicans coming here are no more criminals or terrorist than immigrants from any other country. Most of them are decent hard working people who just want to be able to feed their families, send their kids to school and live the American dream just like any other American.

The "spin" that they take jobs from Americans is just that, spin in the majority of the cases. Bottom line, Americans on the whole are not going to do the menial labor that many of the "illegal" Mexican workers do.

We are not going to go out in the blazing sun and work long hours for low wages picking fruit, lettuce, and other farm produce like these people do.

And not only do they do it, in the majority of cases they pay Social Security taxes from that salary for something they will never be eligible to draw since they are illegals.

Arizona has one of the most hypocritical positions of any state I have ever seen on this issue. The "good citizens" of Arizona complain about the "illegals" taking jobs they themselves won't work, they complain about them not speaking the "native language" forgetting that Mexican/Spanish is the native language of that area and was for numerous years before it was American territory.

An "illegal" can't get a drivers license in Arizona, but he can buy a car, pay for insurance on it, go to traffic court and pay the fine for a ticket, and he can go to traffic school and pay to get points dropped from a license he can't even have.

Arizona has no problem taking the "illegals" money. Funny how that works isn't it.

So it is indeed time for immigration reform.

It is time to end the states making money off of illegals. It is time for a fair and equal immigration quota system by country, not the present one we are using.

No more "feet wet" system if you happen to be from Cuba just because of an outdated 1960's anti Castro/Communist policy while many people from Haiti in fact are much poorer and whose lives are at risk.

No more of this garbage of screaming about Mexican illegals for political advantage from the states while behind their backs they have their hands held out to collect money from them.

Since our economy in many ways depends on the work they do, it is time to legalize them doing that work.

And while they are in fact doing work we ourselves will not do, it is time we remember why. Because they are in fact from a poor village in a poor country, and they want something better.

And before you say "to damned bad" what would you do if it was your children who needed clothing, went to bed hungry, went without emergency medical care, preventive medical care not even being a possibility.

What would you do if it was your children whose best hope of food was scrounging it from a garbage can. And this is not hype folks, I have seen it in Mexico time after time..

I tell you what you would do, if you were any sort of parent at all, with any hope of improving your children's future you would be a "wetback" also.
 

DeletedUser

Wow where to start . sooooo many failed assumptions

first off when settlers came here ther WAS NO COUNTRY and while what happened to the native americans was a travisty the fact remains that there IS a country here now with IMMIGRATION LAWS


no matter how you look at it no matter what the reason teh moment someone comes here illegaly there BREAKING THE LAW they are by very diffinition CRIMINALS and felons at that


as for arizona taking the illegals money the illegals HAVE no money its arizonas money that there taking if illegals had money they wouldnt have come here illegaly


and lastly many americans will gladly do the same work the illegals do they simply want a fair wage to do it which would be perfectly possible IF illegals wernt undercutting the system
 

DeletedUser22575

lspiderl said:
Wow where to start . sooooo many failed assumptions

first off when settlers came here ther WAS NO COUNTRY and while what happened to the native americans was a travisty the fact remains that there IS a country here now with IMMIGRATION LAWS


no matter how you look at it no matter what the reason teh moment someone comes here illegaly there BREAKING THE LAW they are by very diffinition CRIMINALS and felons at that


as for arizona taking the illegals money the illegals HAVE no money its arizonas money that there taking if illegals had money they wouldnt have come here illegaly


and lastly many americans will gladly do the same work the illegals do they simply want a fair wage to do it which would be perfectly possible IF illegals wernt undercutting the system
Click to expand...

You literally give new meaning to the phrase "uneducated and unwashed masses:

When the first settlers arrived here there was numerous countries and nations amongst the Native Americans, many of them with their own systems of laws, governments, and language.

The Incas, Mayans, etc, ruled kingdoms that were in fact larger than any European kingdom at the time but had a system of law and government that was more complex than that of the Europeans.

If you want to talk North America the The Six Nations is the oldest living participatory democracy on earth and was used as a model by Americians.

The idea that these people can come here and work, "but have no money it is in fact Arizona money is just typical American arrogance and racist. They came here, the worked, they earned it, it is in fact their money, not yours or Arizona's. And they did it doing jobs most Americans are either too proud to work at or too demeaning for them to do.

And by a fair wage no doubt you don't mean minimum wage, but some sort of union scale wage that is "good enough for you".

Do you have a clue what this "fair wage" you would want would do to food prices, etc, or the impact on a already battered economy?

And you want to discuss laws and immigration, did YOUR ancestors come here legally, or did they just show up on a boat with out visas, etc?
 

DeletedUser

TJ Tuttle said:
You literally give new meaning to the phrase "uneducated and unwashed masses:

When the first settlers arrived here there was numerous countries and nations amongst the Native Americans, many of them with their own systems of laws, governments, and language.

The Incas, Mayans, etc, ruled kingdoms that were in fact larger than any European kingdom at the time but had a system of law and government that was more complex than that of the Europeans.

If you want to talk North America the The Six Nations is the oldest living participatory democracy on earth and was used as a model by Americians.

The idea that these people can come here and work, "but have no money it is in fact Arizona money is just typical American arrogance and racist. They came here, the worked, they earned it, it is in fact their money, not yours or Arizona's. And they did it doing jobs most Americans are either too proud to work at or too demeaning for them to do.

And by a fair wage no doubt you don't mean minimum wage, but some sort of union scale wage that is "good enough for you".

Do you have a clue what this "fair wage" you would want would do to food prices, etc, or the impact on a already battered economy?

And you want to discuss laws and immigration, did YOUR ancestors come here legally, or did they just show up on a boat with out visas, etc?
Click to expand...



first and foremost childish personal attacks do not win arguments they only show a weak debate argument

secondly there was no unified nation there were small groups of natives with no accualy national laws but w/e its irrelevant either way as this is the country of AMERICA with american laws and american government and AMERICAN imigration laws which are some of the most leinient immigration laws in the WORLD

secondly before going around calling someone a rascist you might want to get a clue and ACCUALY know who and what a person is before you do

yes im white , no my wife isnt , my family represents every color of the rainbow members of my family are asian , black , hispanic and much more and we ALL stand firmly agianst ILLEGAL imigration

next you falsely assume i support union garbage and agian you assume wrong
im a conservative and FIRMLY agiasnt the labor unions bankrupting our country but i beleive that people should earn a living wage what illegals get paid isnt a living wage , they survive on it because they live 10-20 people to a house

but as for your false assumption that americans wont get there hands dirty well maybie not the crybaby liberals that you know but every hard workin conservative i know will dig in the bust there butts in a factory and w/e else it takes to support there families and EARN a living

and NO even though the illegals are working for ther emoney they are NOT spending there money it IS arizonas money since it was paid under the table and not properly taxed , they didnt pay into ss or state and federal taxes etc etc etc

and finaly my great great great grandfather worked on a ship to earn his way to america from scottland and came to america through ellis island and went through the legal process of the day to become a LEGAL citizen of the united states


my wifes mother LEGALY immigrated to the us from the phlipines and went to med school and became a renouned pathologist and my wife was born to a LEGAL us citizen here in the US so shes a second generation immigrant here

her cousin also a born us citizen jsut married his hispanic wife and went through the entire LEGAL immigration process to come here and become a citizen
she put in the work , she did the classes , she learned the launguage and the history


and for someone to sneak across the boarder in the dead of night and work for wages under the table never learning our history or language never paying taxes is an INSULT to ALL LEGAL immigrants who went through all the effort to immigrate here LEGALY!!!!!
 

DeletedUser

lspiderl said:
first off when settlers came here ther WAS NO COUNTRY and while what happened to the native americans was a travisty the fact remains that there IS a country here now with IMMIGRATION LAWS
Click to expand...
That is almost as bad as the people who say that Columbus was the first person to discover American, the pilgrims were the first people to live here, etc. There were people living here, and had their way of living and governing. Who has the right to say today's government is better or even more advanced than what they had then?
as for arizona taking the illegals money the illegals HAVE no money its arizonas money that there taking if illegals had money they wouldnt have come here illegaly
Click to expand...
I assume that means that if you ever move to a new state, you'll leave all your money behind because it belongs to the state where it was earned. I'm glad the government hasn't come up with that idea yet.
 

DeletedUser

Artemis Gordon said:
That is almost as bad as the people who say that Columbus was the first person to discover American, the pilgrims were the first people to live here, etc. There were people living here, and had their way of living and governing. Who has the right to say today's government is better or even more advanced than what they had then?

I assume that means that if you ever move to a new state, you'll leave all your money behind because it belongs to the state where it was earned. I'm glad the government hasn't come up with that idea yet.
Click to expand...
way to be like 3 posts behind
 

DeletedUser22575

lspiderl said:
first and foremost childish personal attacks do not win arguments they only show a weak debate argument

secondly there was no unified nation there were small groups of natives with no accualy national laws but w/e its irrelevant either way as this is the country of AMERICA with american laws and american government and AMERICAN imigration laws which are some of the most leinient immigration laws in the WORLD

secondly before going around calling someone a rascist you might want to get a clue and ACCUALY know who and what a person is before you do

yes im white , no my wife isnt , my family represents every color of the rainbow members of my family are asian , black , hispanic and much more and we ALL stand firmly agianst ILLEGAL imigration

next you falsely assume i support union garbage and agian you assume wrong
im a conservative and FIRMLY agiasnt the labor unions bankrupting our country but i beleive that people should earn a living wage what illegals get paid isnt a living wage , they survive on it because they live 10-20 people to a house

but as for your false assumption that americans wont get there hands dirty well maybie not the crybaby liberals that you know but every hard workin conservative i know will dig in the bust there butts in a factory and w/e else it takes to support there families and EARN a living

and NO even though the illegals are working for ther emoney they are NOT spending there money it IS arizonas money since it was paid under the table and not properly taxed , they didnt pay into ss or state and federal taxes etc etc etc

and finaly my great great great grandfather worked on a ship to earn his way to america from scottland and came to america through ellis island and went through the legal process of the day to become a LEGAL citizen of the united states


my wifes mother LEGALY immigrated to the us from the phlipines and went to med school and became a renouned pathologist and my wife was born to a LEGAL us citizen here in the US so shes a second generation immigrant here

her cousin also a born us citizen jsut married his hispanic wife and went through the entire LEGAL immigration process to come here and become a citizen
she put in the work , she did the classes , she learned the launguage and the history


and for someone to sneak across the boarder in the dead of night and work for wages under the table never learning our history or language never paying taxes is an INSULT to ALL LEGAL immigrants who went through all the effort to immigrate here LEGALY!!!!!
Click to expand...

I don't care if your family is a "rainbow" or not, or if you intend it or not, but you do come across as a racist on this subject.

I will agree that there are some illegals who do work under the table for lower than minimum wage.

In most cases this is the classic example of the most uneducated of the bunch taking whatever job they can find to try and help support their family and their desperate need to make money and fear of being deported being taken advantage of some good "conservative" employer.

Here is a novel approach for Arizona. Crack down on those who do employee the illegals. Fine them, send them to jail. Bet that illegal immigrant problem would dry up quickly after that happened a few times.

But as not paying taxes. Many of them do. They see it as a possible path to citizenship. The IRS even gives them a taxpayers number to use.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523458,00.html

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/co-court-illegal-aliens-rights-violated

As far as not wanting to learn the history and language, again I disagree. Most I know do want to learn, and want their children to learn. One of their American dreams is to have a child that is a college graduate, just as not so long ago it was part of the American dream for many of our parents.
 

DeletedUser

TJ Tuttle said:
I don't care if your family is a "rainbow" or not, or if you intend it or not, but you do come across as a racist on this subject.

I will agree that there are some illegals who do work under the table for lower than minimum wage.

In most cases this is the classic example of the most uneducated of the bunch taking whatever job they can find to try and help support their family and their desperate need to make money and fear of being deported being taken advantage of some good "conservative" employer.

Here is a novel approach for Arizona. Crack down on those who do employee the illegals. Fine them, send them to jail. Bet that illegal immigrant problem would dry up quickly after that happened a few times.

But as not paying taxes. Many of them do. They see it as a possible path to citizenship. The IRS even gives them a taxpayers number to use.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523458,00.html

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/co-court-illegal-aliens-rights-violated

As far as not wanting to learn the history and language, again I disagree. Most I know do want to learn, and want their children to learn. One of their American dreams is to have a child that is a college graduate, just as not so long ago it was part of the American dream for many of our parents.
Click to expand...


thats the typical liberal crap line its got to do with rascism i dont care if the illegals are freaking purple with blue polka dots ILLEGALS are ILLEGAL there CRIMINALS that laugh int eh face of our laws and our legal system there race means jack its there ACTIONS that ive got a problem with and for your information theres only ONE RACE .... HUMAN the over use of the term "race" annoys the crap otu of me as its honestly one of hte most devisive terms to come out of all thise debate ( not jsut here but around the world) by using the term race in this manner it puts up a wall that makes its seem as if were not all teh same race jsut because were differnt ethnicities


as for the employer its employers from all sides not jstu conservatives

and apperntly u missed the part when jsut 2-3 years ago arizona passed some of the strongest legislatian agiasnt employers that hire illegals in the country

and lastly i dont know where in teh world u pull your figures out of thin air but MOST illegals DONT pay taxes , MOST illegals DO get paid under the table its been proven time and time agian

then they further draint eh system by using our hospitals and schools while never paying into them
 

DeletedUser22575

lspiderl said:
thats the typical liberal crap line its got to do with rascism i dont care if the illegals are freaking purple with blue polka dots ILLEGALS are ILLEGAL there CRIMINALS that laugh int eh face of our laws and our legal system there race means jack its there ACTIONS that ive got a problem with and for your information theres only ONE RACE .... HUMAN the over use of the term "race" annoys the crap otu of me as its honestly one of hte most devisive terms to come out of all thise debate ( not jsut here but around the world) by using the term race in this manner it puts up a wall that makes its seem as if were not all teh same race jsut because were differnt ethnicities


as for the employer its employers from all sides not jstu conservatives

and apperntly u missed the part when jsut 2-3 years ago arizona passed some of the strongest legislatian agiasnt employers that hire illegals in the country

and lastly i dont know where in teh world u pull your figures out of thin air but MOST illegals DONT pay taxes , MOST illegals DO get paid under the table its been proven time and time agian

then they further draint eh system by using our hospitals and schools while never paying into them
Click to expand...

Well, we obviously disagree on if the majority of them work under the table or not, and pay taxes or not.

I don't think 50 billion is nothing paid myself.

ITIN filers had an income tax liability of $50 billion from 1996 to 2003, according to the latest IRS figures available. Former IRS Commissioner Mark Everson told Congress in 2006 that ITINs were "bringing taxpayers into the system."

As far as that "tough" law Arizona passed 2-3 years ago why didn't they just enforce the ones in the 86 immigration reform act (i believe it was 86)?

As far as draining the system every time they buy something in most states they pay tax on it..food, cars, gasoline, etc.

And even if they don't, this is the philosophy I believe in..

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Emma Lazarus, 1883

...since they are Human and if they or their families need medical treatment they are welcome to it as far as i am concerned.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

there welcome to goback to there own country and get it

TJ Tuttle said:
Well, we obviously disagree on if the majority of them work under the table or not, and pay taxes or not.

I don't think 50 billion is nothing paid myself.

ITIN filers had an income tax liability of $50 billion from 1996 to 2003, according to the latest IRS figures available. Former IRS Commissioner Mark Everson told Congress in 2006 that ITINs were "bringing taxpayers into the system."

As far as that "tough" law Arizona passed 2-3 years ago why didn't they just enforce the ones in the 86 immigration reform act (i believe it was 86)?

As far as draining the system every time they buy something in most states they pay tax on it..food, cars, gasoline, etc.

And even if they don't, this is the philosophy I believe in..

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Emma Lazarus, 1883

...since they are Human and if they or their families need medical treatment they are welcome to it as far as i am concerned.
Click to expand...
 

DeletedUser

dcgincc said:
I bet they should learn English before they come too, right?
Click to expand...
absuloutley all the LEGAL immigrants are required to , all teh natrualy born citizens learn it what makes tehm to damn good to learn it ?
 

DeletedUser

If this thread was started as a platform for xenophobes to rant, they're looking pretty stupid now.
 

DeletedUser

Nice, very smooth Arty.Casual & Whistling.So not Casual :up:.
They should learn the Language English, because all American Citizens are required to know the language.And most Legal Immigrants require English to go to America.They may be sick or the so, but why can they not remain in their own country and get help there.Mexico isn't that bad of a place, honestly, it's thriving at the moment.
 

DeletedUser

The US doesn't have an official language, although some people are pushing for it.
 

DeletedUser

Well, my country Ireland does (English even though we hate them) & every child in Ireland must learn Irish.

Tá sé an mhathair ata trathnóna(That makes no sense even in English :up:)

Well, honestly, if the US had a Border Security like Australia there would be no need for this thread.
 
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