The Bible....

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
God hates sin. He requires perfection. Obviously no one is perfect. Christ lived a perfect life and He paid for any sins we have committed, IF you accept that gift. His death was a victory for us all. He did it because He loves us and wants us to spend eternity with Him. It is your choice.
> Be omnipotent and omnipresent God
> Make humans imperfect
> Demand perfection from humans
> Mad when humans aren't perfect
> Flood everything killing millions of humans and billions of animals

gg ez best K/D ratio in history

If there is a Christian God, he is a cruel and evil overlord, and I couldn't in good conscious, that he gave me, serve such an “utterly evil, capricious and monstrous” deity. Would rather burn in hell than serve in fear.
 

Mustang Kate

Well-Known Member
So, there are some children here whining that they hate Dad because he made
them go to bed at a certain time, and wouldn't let them stay up all night playing
video games. According to them, Dad does this cause he is mean and rotten
and that rule book he posted on the frig is just a bunch of made up stories and
they don't have to listen to them. Dad says it's for your own good, but to them
good is being able to do whatever they want. Here is the mind of a child, who
thinks he has the entire universe all figured out.
 

Disinterested Horse

One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.
― Christopher Hitchens, god is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
 

PrisonBull

Well-Known Member
I am an ordained minister but as an educated man, I am also naturally, an atheist. Education is the number one enemy of religion.
 

Mustang Kate

Well-Known Member
Some smart azz is editing my posts to say "Almighty Brown Tie' instead of God. This is not funny, Do not put words into my mouth.
Ok, I posted the above sentence, and when it posted ithe word G..o..d.. immediately changed to Almighty Brown Tie. I will never post in this forum again as apparently it is now coded so you cannot say any of the names of the Creator, without it being changed to Almighty Brown Tie.
 

Kakashi

Member
I love how people here seem to only give their opinion but no evidence to support their view or logical argumentation. Whether you believe in God or not has no effect on reality, if he is real, he is real whether you like him or not and vice a versa. So let me be the first to actually make a logical argument, yes im one of those cooks who believe the bible as God's infallible word. allow me to argue first for the existence of God and then the bible.

I love how most atheistic argumentation states that "if the God of the bible exist he is evil and cruel because he allows for the existence of pain suffering and death", and yet if you are a naturalistic atheist you have no claim on whether something is good or not. Let me explain, if we are the result of the coincidental and "by chance" development of comic material, what makes you worth anything more than a rock? What gives you value? Using your world view we have no obligation to place value on anyone because we are all blobs of chance bumping together with no apparent reason to exist. Further more where does your view of good and evil come from? As a Christian the bible teaches me that humans were created in the image of God and were given a conscience to see what according to God is right and wrong, It is by this that i can claim morality, God is my standard of good and evil. What claim does an atheist have on a cannibal who lives in the rain forest and eats young woman? I can... because I have a standard. You don't. How then do you see evil in this world? how then do you call God evil? Should we (according to your world view) care what you think about God? According to your world view reason and logic is as a result of chemical fuzzing in the brain... so to you logic and reason could not matter, because these laws do not exist outside of human thought. If you think they do exist outside of human thought, who placed the rules of logic? How do you prove that these laws exist? You cant with observation. Yet Christians are mocked for believing in something that cannot be proved through observation. atheists need to be more consistent with their worldviews ;)

"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Richard Dawkings (athiest)

The bible is historically the most attested and accurate historical text in THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE ever, no other historical text has a more reliable historical manuscript tradition, and is so consistent with ancient history. (go research it) Not only is it reliable according to history and its own history, but it is also logically consistent and coherent. (not to mention the hundreds of prophecies that came true and is seen in actual history) How many of you have actually read the bible to understand and not to make fun? This is expected because the bible teaches :

John 3:18-21
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

And

Romans 3:10-18
“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

People are by nature enemies of the light and love their darkness, unless they are saved they will stay in their darkness. Prove me right by reacting with mocking and irrationality... atleast you are consistent with my world view :) That's how you guys handle debates ;)



Furthermore the bible teaches that all man has fallen short of God's standard, and just as a just judge in a court cannot let a criminal free, so God cannot let us go without punishment. Think about it... if a judge would let a rapist go without justice... he would be a bad judge right? God is the perfect Judge. Now you might say "but i did nothing bad enough to go to hell", the bible teaches that God is the creator, sustainer and ruler of the universe. You have broken His law, and thus are guilty. What will happen if you wrong a friend ? not much right? If you attack an officer? You probably would go to jail or have to pay a hefty fine. What happens to you when you hit kim jong un? You would be killed right? You see the higher the authority and importance of a person the more severe the punishment for the same crime. We are speaking about God now... and wronging an infinite being requires an infinite punishment. That is why Christ, who was God, had to step into creation. Only God is infinite, and thus only god could pay for an infinite penalty. Christ died on our behalf, taking our punishment reconciling us to God. All that you need to do is turn away from darkness and trust in His sacrifice. This is the center of Christianity, not God as a monster, but rather a righteous and just God, stepping into creation, dieing on behalf of his enemies, to save creatures who deserve only punishment. THAT is love.
 
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Mustang Kate

Well-Known Member
I love how people here seem to only give their opinion but no evidence to support their view or logical argumentation. Whether you believe in God or not has no effect on reality, if he is real, he is real whether you like him or not and vice a versa. So let me be the first to actually make a logical argument, yes im one of those cooks who believe the bible as God's infallible word. allow me to argue first for the existence of God and then the bible.

I love how most atheistic argumentation states that "if the God of the bible exist he is evil and cruel because he allows for the existence of pain suffering and death", and yet if you are a naturalistic atheist you have no claim on whether something is good or not. Let me explain, if we are the result of the coincidental and "by chance" development of comic material, what makes you worth anything more than a rock? What gives you value? Using your world view we have no obligation to place value on anyone because we are all blobs of chance bumping together with no apparent reason to exist. Further more where does your view of good and evil come from? As a Christian the bible teaches me that humans were created in the image of God and were given a conscience to see what according to God is right and wrong, It is by this that i can claim morality, God is my standard of good and evil. What claim does an atheist have on a cannibal who lives in the rain forest and eats young woman? I can... because I have a standard. You dont.

"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Richard Dawkings (athiest)

The bible is historically the most attested and accurate historical text in THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE ever, no other historical text has a more reliable historical manuscript tradition, and is so consistent with ancient history. (go research it) Not only is it reliable according to history and its own history, but it is also logically consistent and coherent. (not to mention the hundreds of prophecies that came true and is seen in actual history) How many of you have actually read the bible to understand and not to make fun? This is expected because the bible teaches :

John 3:18-21
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

And

Romans 3:10-18
“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

People are by nature enemies of the light and love their darkness, unless they are saved they will stay in their darkness. Prove me right by reacting with mocking and irrationality... atleast you are consistent with my world view :) That's how you guys handle debates ;)



Furthermore the bible teaches that all man has fallen short of God's standard, and just as a just judge in a court cannot let a criminal free, so God cannot let us go without punishment. Think about it... if a judge would let a rapist go without justice... he would be a bad judge right? God is the perfect Judge. Now you might say "but i did nothing bad enough to go to hell", the bible teaches that God is the creator, sustainer and ruler of the universe. You have broken His law, and thus are guilty. What will happen if you wrong a friend ? not much right? If you attack an officer? You probably would go to jail or have to pay a hefty fine. What happens to you when you hit kim jong un? You would be killed right? You see the higher the authority and importance of a person the more severe the punishment for the same crime. We are speaking about God now... and wronging an infinite being requires an infinite punishment. That is why Christ, who was God, had to step into creation. Only God is infinite, and thus only god could pay for an infinite penalty. Christ died on our behalf, taking our punishment reconciling us to God. All that you need to do is turn away from darkness and trust in His sacrifice. This is the center of Christianity, not God as a monster, but rather a righteous and just God, stepping into creation, dieing on behalf of his enemies, to save creatures who deserve only punishment. THAT is love.
I stand with you Kakashi, hope someone who needs Christ will read your post and give serious thought.
 

Mustang Kate

Well-Known Member
Tucker Blue, you are taking that quote from Jesus as a literal thing. It is accepting His sacrifice on the cross, taking OUR penalty for OUR sins upon Himself, shedding HIS blood and giving HIS life so YOU don't have to stand before a just God and be condemned.
 

Harsha..

Well-Known Member
Well, well - the debate and discussion forum is alive and kicking. I used to love this forum when I was active half a decade ago.

"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Richard Dawkings
That passage you quoted by Dawkins is actually very poignant, and deep. It strips humans utterly of any certainty, it is like telling a 5-year old kid that his parents do not exist and that he really is alone and is on his own in the world. It's a scary thought for humans, and that is why so many people choose to believe there is a higher being "watching over them.'' But what Dawkins said is true. When most people think of the progress of humanity, they think along these lines



But in reality, we are here



In the grand cosmic scale of things, we are fresh arrivals. We have just emerged into consciousness. We still have a long way to go. We will never stop evolving, and one of the most important things is to realize that we really are on our own, and nothing in the universe cares for us. That is how we will grow further.

I would much rather live in a coldly indifferent universe than in a universe run by a megalomaniac. Yes, that is correct - a person who wants to run the whole universe, it's billions of galaxies and unknowable numbers of sentient species is an INSANELY power hungry being.

....What happens to you when you hit kim jong un? You would be killed right?You see the higher the authority and importance of a person the more severe the punishment for the same crime. We are speaking about God now...
Exactly my point. From what I understood from that passage, you are basically implying that your god is a much more vindictive and awful person than Kim Jong Un. It is downright terrifying that you are willing to believe that such an entity exists and you are happy to support such actions.

If someone hit a truly wise person, they won't hit back or mindlessly punish that person. They will try to understand why that happened and try to resolve the issues leading to the hatred in the first place. Like Gandhi said, "an eye for an eye makes the world blind". I would expect a "higher" being, something that is more powerful and more evolved than us to have a much higher moral standard than we do. That means such a being would be appalled at the thought of causing intelligent beings any sort of harm just because they thought differently, just like any sane person today would be appalled at hitting someone who disagreed with them, leave alone punish them for eternity.

wronging an infinite being requires an infinite punishment.
How can anyone possibly wrong an "infinite being"? - if something is powerful enough to create a whole universe, how could we even manage to offend such a being? - I will use an analogy here. There exists an ant colony somewhere in the mid-western United States, beside a highway. An ant in the colony claims that there is no reason to pray to humans and that we are destructive beings.

Would anyone even notice that ant said that? - even if we did, would we drive down there and squash the anthill as "punishment"? - would we even bother looking for the single ant that said it and then build an ant-hell, keep the ant alive there along with all the trillions of other "treasonous ants" to be punished for eternity?

All that sounds absurd, and what you said is similarly absurd. It's also deeply representative of human arrogance - that we think we actually matter to such higher beings. We don't. Those "infinite beings", if they exist, will have more important things to do and would not even care what we think about them, like you won't care what an ant - or a bacterium - thinks of us.

(not to mention the hundreds of prophecies that came true and is seen in actual history)
It's easy to make a prophecy. Just make the wording purposefully vague and covering a wide area and time range. For example someone could make a prophecy, "A great calamity will fall on the united states in the next century". Eventually, a hurricane hits New Orleans and then you can say "look, that prediction came true". No, it doesn't mean anything at all.

Let me explain, if we are the result of the coincidental and "by chance" development of comic material, what makes you worth anything more than a rock? What gives you value?
That's an easy question. Sentience. As a species, humans have the ability to think and feel. We can create, love, feel joy, express kindness, be creative and a million other things. A rock most definitely cannot do all of those things.

and yet if you are a naturalistic atheist you have no claim on whether something is good or not.
So, basically, by implication, you are saying that if some people walk into an atheist's house, murder her husband and children, burn down her house and throw her on the streets, that atheist has no right to say the people who did those things to her were evil?

If someone says they don't believe that Harry Potter exists, would you go and say they have no claim on whether something is good or not? - that's how absurd your statement sounds. Just like Harry Potter was a book written by a human author drawing on her creativity and ideas, the Bible is a work of literature that was written by a human, many many years ago.

Many times in your post, you keep on saying that atheists have no scope of ethics and we cannot feel or distinguish from good and evil. That is completely wrong and a deeply misguided thing to say. As I mentioned before, what gives each of us humans value is sentience. When I look at another person, regardless of their race, color, creed or sex, I know they are human. I know they are unique, that within them, they love someone deeply, have many hopes and dreams for the future, hold numerous memories of joy and happiness. I believe that everyone in the world is capable of kindness and love, most of us don't always express it, but we are capable of it, and that's what matters. I most definitely don't need to believe in some book to understand the immense value of human life.
 
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Kakashi

Member
Well, well - the debate and discussion forum is alive and kicking. I used to love this forum when I was active half a decade ago.



That passage you quoted by Dawkins is actually very poignant, and deep. It strips humans utterly of any certainty, it is like telling a 5-year old kid that his parents do not exist and that he really is alone and is on his own in the world. It's a scary thought for humans, and that is why so many people choose to believe there is a higher being "watching over them.'' But what Dawkins said is true. When most people think of the progress of humanity, they think along these lines



But in reality, we are here



In the grand cosmic scale of things, we are fresh arrivals. We have just emerged into consciousness. We still have a long way to go. We will never stop evolving, and one of the most important things is to realize that we really are on our own, and nothing in the universe cares for us. That is how we will grow further.

I would much rather live in a coldly indifferent universe than in a universe run by a megalomaniac. Yes, that is correct - a person who wants to run the whole universe, it's billions of galaxies and unknowable numbers of sentient species is an INSANELY power hungry being.



Exactly my point. From what I understood from that passage, you are basically implying that your god is a much more vindictive and awful person than Kim Jong Un. It is downright terrifying that you are willing to believe that such an entity exists and you are happy to support such actions.

If someone hit a truly wise person, they won't hit back or mindlessly punish that person. They will try to understand why that happened and try to resolve the issues leading to the hatred in the first place. Like Gandhi said, "an eye for an eye makes the world blind". I would expect a "higher" being, something that is more powerful and more evolved than us to have a much higher moral standard than we do. That means such a being would be appalled at the thought of causing intelligent beings any sort of harm just because they thought differently, just like any sane person today would be appalled at hitting someone who disagreed with them, leave alone punish them for eternity.



How can anyone possibly wrong an "infinite being"? - if something is powerful enough to create a whole universe, how could we even manage to offend such a being? - I will use an analogy here. There exists an ant colony somewhere in the mid-western United States, beside a highway. An ant in the colony claims that there is no reason to pray to humans and that we are destructive beings.

Would anyone even notice that ant said that? - even if we did, would we drive down there and squash the anthill as "punishment"? - would we even bother looking for the single ant that said it and then build an ant-hell, keep the ant alive there along with all the trillions of other "treasonous ants" to be punished for eternity?

All that sounds absurd, and what you said is similarly absurd. It's also deeply representative of human arrogance - that we think we actually matter to such higher beings. We don't. Those "infinite beings", if they exist, will have more important things to do and would not even care what we think about them, like you won't care what an ant - or a bacterium - thinks of us.



It's easy to make a prophecy. Just make the wording purposefully vague and covering a wide area and time range. For example someone could make a prophecy, "A great calamity will fall on the united states in the next century". Eventually, a hurricane hits New Orleans and then you can say "look, that prediction came true". No, it doesn't mean anything at all.



That's an easy question. Sentience. As a species, humans have the ability to think and feel. We can create, love, feel joy, express kindness, be creative and a million other things. A rock most definitely cannot do all of those things.



So, basically, by implication, you are saying that if some people walk into an atheist's house, murder her husband and children, burn down her house and throw her on the streets, that atheist has no right to say the people who did those things to her were evil?

If someone says they don't believe that Harry Potter exists, would you go and say they have no claim on whether something is good or not? - that's how absurd your statement sounds. Just like Harry Potter was a book written by a human author drawing on her creativity and ideas, the Bible is a work of literature that was written by a human, many many years ago.

Many times in your post, you keep on saying that atheists have no scope of ethics and we cannot feel or distinguish from good and evil. That is completely wrong and a deeply misguided thing to say. As I mentioned before, what gives each of us humans value is sentience. When I look at another person, regardless of their race, color, creed or sex, I know they are human. I know they are unique, that within them, they love someone deeply, have many hopes and dreams for the future, hold numerous memories of joy and happiness. I believe that everyone in the world is capable of kindness and love, most of us don't always express it, but we are capable of it, and that's what matters. I most definitely don't need to believe in some book to understand the immense value of human life.
Thanks for the response, it is good to see that there are still atheists out there willing to have a good discussion.

"That passage you quoted by Dawkins is actually very poignant, and deep."

Yes, but you miss the part where Dawkins actually assert, that in his worldview there is no good or evil. If there is no good or evil, then you can't have ethics... You assert:

"Many times in your post, you keep on saying that atheists have no scope of ethics and we cannot feel or distinguish from good and evil. That is completely wrong and a deeply misguided thing to say. As I mentioned before, what gives each of us humans value is sentience. When I look at another person, regardless of their race, color, creed or sex, I know they are human. I know they are unique, that within them, they love someone deeply, have many hopes and dreams for the future, hold numerous memories of joy and happiness. I believe that everyone in the world is capable of kindness and love, most of us don't always express it, but we are capable of it, and that's what matters. I most definitely don't need to believe in some book to understand the immense value of human life."

Yet let me try and lay out the atheist worldview philosophically and lets see if you can actually make the claims that you are. (I have spoken to many atheists and they all say something similar, love it :) They don't understand their own world view and it's implications)

Most of you (atheists) claim to be people of science and rationality and yet you believe that in reality there is no uniformity and no sovereign governance in this universe. In the light of that, how can you know that anything, like the laws of gravity or logic will remain the same. (law of induction can't be assumed) You cannot know that. You make a claim to uniformity and yet you don't know if the laws governing what you consider as "uniformity", they might change in the next 20 minutes, or 200000 years. You can't can't make that claim. Especially you hold to the laws that rules the present reality and hope that it will not change in the future.

More over you believe the laws of logic and reason and often appeal to them. But as a naturalist atheist who believes that we are all "matter in motion", everything is material. Any logic or reason is a result of chemical reactions in the brain, as is what you would consider as beauty, love, hope, and kindness. That means considering your worldview, since these laws and concepts (love, morality or logic) are not universal (since chemical reactions in a brain, that comes up with abstract thought, are not a something we could base a ultimate truth on), we cannot trust logic or reason or even what you consider as beauty. What does this mean?

1. You cannot claim ultimate truth, thus you ironically cannot even make the claim that there is no God (you can merely claim it is improbable according to the 'fizzing' (chemical reactions) in your brain, which is unreliable anyway). You cannot appeal to logic, reason or morality because they are unreliable and even if they are true, you have no guarantee of uniformity (it can thus change at any time).

2. What we think or feel about others is irrelevant and because we are all just "matter in motion" in a pitiless, indifferent universe, we have no value, you have no base on which you place value on human life. And even if you do, why should we care? Why would that matter? you are just pointless matter who are fizzing somewhere in the universe. What you think does not matter.

This is your world view, listen to Dawkins and his lectures and read his books. you will see that this is what he himself teaches. At most he can only make fun of the Christian worldview and revel in the darkness which he loves so much.

So, basically, by implication, you are saying that if some people walk into an atheist's house, murder her husband and children, burn down her house and throw her on the streets, that atheist has no right to say the people who did those things to her were evil?

And you completely misunderstand my point lol. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that atheists are completely inconsistent with their world view (mentioned above), they borrow from the Christian world view and make crazy truth claims (like morality and reason), claiming value for humanity because they were also created in God's image (once again inconsistent). Just think about it. The Atheist who appose the world view of Christianity (which they really can't even claim, since there are no universal truths) also borrow from the Christian world view.

"Exactly my point. From what I understood from that passage, you are basically implying that your god is a much more vindictive and awful person than Kim Jong Un. It is downright terrifying that you are willing to believe that such an entity exists and you are happy to support such actions.

If someone hit a truly wise person, they won't hit back or mindlessly punish that person. They will try to understand why that happened and try to resolve the issues leading to the hatred in the first place. Like Gandhi said, "an eye for an eye makes the world blind". I would expect a "higher" being, something that is more powerful and more evolved than us to have a much higher moral standard than we do. That means such a being would be appalled at the thought of causing intelligent beings any sort of harm just because they thought differently, just like any sane person today would be appalled at hitting someone who disagreed with them, leave alone punish them for eternity."

Again a complete misunderstanding of what I was saying and also a gross misconception of a human's relationship with God. (this made me laugh a bit... never heard this before)

Firstly I was not saying God was like the dictator, who is cruel, unjust and finite. God is infinite, good, just and perfect. He created you and he sustains you every second of the day even though you are in full rebellion against Him. That is called mercy. Not only does He sustain us, but He stepped into His creation and died the death that we deserve, to save us from the just punishment over our head.

Now for the ant analogy... (so bad) our relationship with God is not like ants and humans. God created you for His purpose and He is the one who, even at the moment, allow you to breath. Thus if you break his law, he has every right, and if he is perfectly just, MUST punish you for what you have done. Like, when we create a machine who malfunctions and cause a lot of destruction, do you think it is wrong to throw it away? If a murder appears in court, and he is found to be guilty, a good judge would sentence a punishment to that criminal. It does not matter what that criminal think of the judge or the system, or how much he hates the judge. That judge did the right thing. You are like this criminal, repent and believe.

"I would much rather live in a coldly indifferent universe than in a universe run by a megalomaniac. Yes, that is correct - a person who wants to run the whole universe, it's billions of galaxies and unknowable numbers of sentient species is an INSANELY power hungry being."

God is not power hungry, that statement makes no sense, He is all powerful (all power belongs to him, thus he does not hunger for power in ANY way) and nothing exist aside from Him allowing it to be there. You limit God to your finite pitiful conceptions and yet, that makes no impression on him. Again what you believe does not change reality. You are either right or wrong, what you want is irrelevant.

I have spent many years as a militant atheist, thinking myself clever and right, but in my pursuit to show Christians how pitiful illogical their worldview is (thus my understanding of the atheistic worldview and being so well read in it's philosophy), I released how inconstant I was and God opened my eyes to the truth. I hope He does the same to you. (I say with the utmost love, I do not want you to end up where you are headed) I would ask you to be fair, and read up on my world view before making accusations, because then you actually argue against a worldview that you dont even understand, that makes no sense.
 
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Harsha..

Well-Known Member
The way you and me understand that is very different. My understanding is that there's no good or evil in nature. If an earthquake happens, it's not good or evil, if a star explodes somewhere in the galaxy, it's not good or evil either. Perceptions of human mortality is a completely different topic - you shouldn't unnecessarily conflate the two.

They don't understand their own world view and it's implications)


No. It's the other way around. You don't understand the thinking of most atheists and rationalists. It's a fallacy to equate your lack of understanding of a subject to other people's ignorance. The problem here is that your beliefs go in one direction and atheists goes in another. Due to that fact alone, our arguments won't make much sense to the other.

And you completely misunderstand my point lol. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that atheists are completely inconsistent with their world view (mentioned above), they borrow from the Christian world view and make crazy truth claims (like morality and reason), claiming value for humanity because they were also created in God's image (once again inconsistent). Just think about it.

What makes you think that we "borrow" from the Christian world? - what about the other religions out there? - Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and a thousand other religions? - in all honesty, would you say those religions are the wrong path and all the people who believe in them will go to hell?

Even Christianity is not "consistent" in it's beliefs. You have Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox...basically different groups within the same religion that have a different belief systems. So, it would not be correct to claim your religion is more "consistent" in morality than atheists. Hell, all human beings, regardless of religious orientation have different belief systems. To try to claim only one series of beliefs is true is asking for catastrophe to occur. Allow me to talk about Donald Trump. This man has an extremely dubious moral record and has committed many things Christians would consider "sin". But, pretty much all of America's Evangelicals support him. How do you explain the inconistient moral standards of American Christians here?

With that in mind, you absolutely have no right to claim people who follow your religion have any sort of consistent morals.

Now for the ant analogy... (so bad) our relationship with God is not like ants and humans.

It's one of the best analogies I've heard :) - you just don't fully comprehend it.

From an ant's perception, we are like gods. Our power appears infinite, and we can do things the ant cannot even imagine possible. The universe to an ant is simply a small field around the ant hill, the ant is incapable of thinking of what lies beyond the field or even that stars exist. In a similar sense, humans are like that, we live within a limited perception of reality, and our brains aren't evolved yet to grasp the more complex things.

It's completely possible this universe were created by an advanced alien species with superior technology to ours. This universe could be a simulation, created in the garage of some being called "Jeff". You would consider such beings as "gods". But rest of us rationalists just see them for what they are - sapient beings, who are simply more evolved than we are at present.

You limit God to your finite pitiful conceptions and yet, that makes no impression on him. Again what you believe does not change reality. You are either right or wrong, what you want is irrelevant.

Actually, I can say EXACTLY the same thing about your beliefs. That your conception of "god" is pitiful, narrow and very unimaginative. Compared to science, I find religion very one-dimensional, dull and boring. I also can say that whether or not you believe in god doesn't matter. The universe will stay coldly indifferent regardless of whatever one of Earth's religions you follow.

I have spent many years as a militant atheist, thinking myself clever and right, but in my pursuit to show Christians how pitiful illogical their worldview is (thus my understanding of the atheistic worldview and being so well read in it's philosophy), I released how inconstant I was and God opened my eyes to the truth. I hope He does the same to you. (I say with the utmost love, I do not want you to end up where you are headed) I would ask you to be fair, and read up on my world view before making accusations, because then you actually argue against a worldview that you dont even understand, that makes no sense.

I grew up in a religious family, and through my growing years, I held a deep interest in science. As I read more and more about both - science and religion, I found it increasingly difficult to reconcile the two. I felt rather uncomfortable, and in my head, I built all sorts of inconsistent theories to justify the existence of both. But, ultimately I finally understood and my mind was clearer than it has been.

To me, complete rational logic tells me to be atheist about all of the Earth’s religions and utterly agnostic about the nature of our existence or the possible existence of a higher being. I don’t arrive there via any form of faith, just by logic.

There are many other points you've raised in your post that I wanted to address, but I've decided against it, mostly because, even if i tried my best and spent days composing an excellent answer, you wouldn't understand and appreciate the way I think. To be honest, if believing in religion gives you peace, that's absolutely fine. In my life, I have walked a different path and I have absolutely no regrets in the path I choose and I'm perfectly happy. The vast majority of atheists have no problems in people following religion peacefully. Usually the problems only start where other people's belief in religion starts to directly affect or harm other individuals. If we could all just believe in what we want to believe without doing harm, the world would be a better place.
 

Kakashi

Member
The way you and me understand that is very different. My understanding is that there's no good or evil in nature. If an earthquake happens, it's not good or evil, if a star explodes somewhere in the galaxy, it's not good or evil either. Perceptions of human mortality is a completely different topic - you shouldn't unnecessarily conflate the two.

They don't understand their own world view and it's implications)


No. It's the other way around. You don't understand the thinking of most atheists and rationalists. It's a fallacy to equate your lack of understanding of a subject to other people's ignorance. The problem here is that your beliefs go in one direction and atheists goes in another. Due to that fact alone, our arguments won't make much sense to the other.

And you completely misunderstand my point lol. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that atheists are completely inconsistent with their world view (mentioned above), they borrow from the Christian world view and make crazy truth claims (like morality and reason), claiming value for humanity because they were also created in God's image (once again inconsistent). Just think about it.

What makes you think that we "borrow" from the Christian world? - what about the other religions out there? - Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and a thousand other religions? - in all honesty, would you say those religions are the wrong path and all the people who believe in them will go to hell?

Even Christianity is not "consistent" in it's beliefs. You have Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox...basically different groups within the same religion that have a different belief systems. So, it would not be correct to claim your religion is more "consistent" in morality than atheists. Hell, all human beings, regardless of religious orientation have different belief systems. To try to claim only one series of beliefs is true is asking for catastrophe to occur. Allow me to talk about Donald Trump. This man has an extremely dubious moral record and has committed many things Christians would consider "sin". But, pretty much all of America's Evangelicals support him. How do you explain the inconistient moral standards of American Christians here?

With that in mind, you absolutely have no right to claim people who follow your religion have any sort of consistent morals.

Now for the ant analogy... (so bad) our relationship with God is not like ants and humans.

It's one of the best analogies I've heard :) - you just don't fully comprehend it.

From an ant's perception, we are like gods. Our power appears infinite, and we can do things the ant cannot even imagine possible. The universe to an ant is simply a small field around the ant hill, the ant is incapable of thinking of what lies beyond the field or even that stars exist. In a similar sense, humans are like that, we live within a limited perception of reality, and our brains aren't evolved yet to grasp the more complex things.

It's completely possible this universe were created by an advanced alien species with superior technology to ours. This universe could be a simulation, created in the garage of some being called "Jeff". You would consider such beings as "gods". But rest of us rationalists just see them for what they are - sapient beings, who are simply more evolved than we are at present.

You limit God to your finite pitiful conceptions and yet, that makes no impression on him. Again what you believe does not change reality. You are either right or wrong, what you want is irrelevant.

Actually, I can say EXACTLY the same thing about your beliefs. That your conception of "god" is pitiful, narrow and very unimaginative. Compared to science, I find religion very one-dimensional, dull and boring. I also can say that whether or not you believe in god doesn't matter. The universe will stay coldly indifferent regardless of whatever one of Earth's religions you follow.

I have spent many years as a militant atheist, thinking myself clever and right, but in my pursuit to show Christians how pitiful illogical their worldview is (thus my understanding of the atheistic worldview and being so well read in it's philosophy), I released how inconstant I was and God opened my eyes to the truth. I hope He does the same to you. (I say with the utmost love, I do not want you to end up where you are headed) I would ask you to be fair, and read up on my world view before making accusations, because then you actually argue against a worldview that you dont even understand, that makes no sense.

I grew up in a religious family, and through my growing years, I held a deep interest in science. As I read more and more about both - science and religion, I found it increasingly difficult to reconcile the two. I felt rather uncomfortable, and in my head, I built all sorts of inconsistent theories to justify the existence of both. But, ultimately I finally understood and my mind was clearer than it has been.

To me, complete rational logic tells me to be atheist about all of the Earth’s religions and utterly agnostic about the nature of our existence or the possible existence of a higher being. I don’t arrive there via any form of faith, just by logic.

There are many other points you've raised in your post that I wanted to address, but I've decided against it, mostly because, even if i tried my best and spent days composing an excellent answer, you wouldn't understand and appreciate the way I think. To be honest, if believing in religion gives you peace, that's absolutely fine. In my life, I have walked a different path and I have absolutely no regrets in the path I choose and I'm perfectly happy. The vast majority of atheists have no problems in people following religion peacefully. Usually the problems only start where other people's belief in religion starts to directly affect or harm other individuals. If we could all just believe in what we want to believe without doing harm, the world would be a better place.
"There are many other points you've raised in your post that I wanted to address, but I've decided against it, mostly because, even if i tried my best and spent days composing an excellent answer, you wouldn't understand and appreciate the way I think. To be honest, if believing in religion gives you peace, that's absolutely fine. In my life, I have walked a different path and I have absolutely no regrets in the path I choose and I'm perfectly happy. The vast majority of atheists have no problems in people following religion peacefully. Usually the problems only start where other people's belief in religion starts to directly affect or harm other individuals. If we could all just believe in what we want to believe without doing harm, the world would be a better place."

It's interesting you actually haven't addressed any of my points, you merely either addressed or fortified your own points and made new arguments... You say that I lack understanding and dont properly understand the atheistic world view. Yet I have a degree in philosophy and used to debate against Christians publicly. I also have a degree in micro biology so im happy to discuss anything around science. I know very well what atheists assert, I study it every day. Those degrees i got while being an atheist. Do you not think you might be the one who cannot understand and is thus why you cant deliver a coherent defense for what you believe? If this worldview makes no sense why are so many scientists Christians? Do you claim to be smarter than them? David Berlinski a famous author and scientist, (also a borderline atheist but could never agree with the world view) says this:

“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”

He wrote this in his book called "the devils delusion" in response to "a God delusion" where he actually made Dawkins look like a irrational child.
 
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Harsha..

Well-Known Member
Most of your arguments in your posts are metaphysical in nature. Anyone who has studied philosophy knows that's a generally messy area and most metaphysical questions have no right or wrong answer. I have no interest in getting into all that as it distracts from the more relevant points. Our time is better spent talking about the aspects that have an actual social and practical impact.

I'd like to point out that you completely failed to address or skirted around many of my points that I raised in my posts. The reason I decided not to debate further was that you appear only to be looking for things to support your personal worldview rather than engaging in any sort of constructive discussion.

Finally, I would also like to point out that what you used to believe in, "militant atheism" is very very different from what I believe in, which is "free thinking". Your philosophy is based on a dogmatic and binary view of the world, while a free thinker is much more broad in nature and is always prepared to accept new ideas. As I said in my last post, I generally have no problem in what other people believe in, as long as they keep it personal and do not harm others. That's the key difference between you and me; you think there is only one correct interpretation of things, while I'm prepared to consider a much wider series of possibilities. There are serious consequences to dogmatic thinking, as evidenced in the conflicts and wars between people of different religions and communities through the whole of human history. If we could all accept that everyone has a different way of looking at the world and that no absolutes exist, a lot of this world's problems wouldn't exist.
 

jarograv

Well-Known Member
Further more where does your view of good and evil come from? As a Christian the bible teaches me that humans were created in the image of God and were given a conscience to see what according to God is right and wrong, It is by this that i can claim morality, God is my standard of good and evil
Perhaps the most troubling argument I hear repeated by religious people. If you one day woke up and learned god didn't exist, is your plan to start raping and murdering people? Of course it isn't, and I'm not gonna join you in projecting what I think the other side believes in because it's obviously not the case. Human morality is something that has developed over time and even just looking at the present we can see differences in morality dependant on culture, upbringing, experiences, etc. My point is that nobody, religious or otherwise, requires a sky man to tell them not to kill or rape. It's something most of us are taught and abide by regardless of religious beliefs.

The bible is historically the most attested and accurate historical text in THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE ever, no other historical text has a more reliable historical manuscript tradition, and is so consistent with ancient history. (go research it) Not only is it reliable according to history and its own history, but it is also logically consistent and coherent.
Laughably incorrect. Claims like this are why atheists ridicule theists. It is a book of purported wizardry and magic that's about as accurate as Harry Potter. First testament is almost entirely fiction and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't actually believe rivers of blood and tales of a zookeeper's boat are accurate historical records. The New Testament has some facts of locations and figures, but even most Christians are willing to concede that the majority of the stories are to be followed for their morals and not looked at as a historical record.
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
From militant atheism to literally believing the old testament is historical fact would seem like an unbelievable journey for one to take in their spirituality, but to each their own.

I believed in a version of the Christian god when I was a child, and when I started to see the holes in the plot, the indoctrination officer who visited once a week at my public school told me that although he personally believed in a higher power, the stories are just stories, they're meant to teach children lessons about right and wrong and how you should behave in society, and that there are some old stories that were once relevant, but no longer are, as they have either been disproven (Earth is not 6000 year old, nor did a sky wizard create all life as it exists now through creationism) or society has changed to the point we don't see women in particular as inferior to men for example. I disagree with a lot of the main-stay values of Christianity, I think a lot is to do with meeting so many people from different cultures, but some values like "Renunciation of worldly goods" and "Unconditional Love" is something that could be taken more seriously in our broken society by Theists and Atheists alike.

Every culture in the world has their own stories, to teach children how that culture behaves through storied example. Through time cultures have borrowed and adapted stories and moralities from each other - Christianity is a copy/paste theology itself.

But ultimately nothing makes the bible more sacred to me than the A Song of Ice and Fire series, you just wouldn't read those to your kids, but somehow Old Testament is fine...
 
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