The Bible....

Discussion in 'Debate and discussion' started by Bat Masterson, Aug 15, 2013.

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  1. Bat Masterson

    Bat Masterson Banned

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    So is the BIBLE REAL.......

    I say it isn't....

    I believe it is a book cobbled together by men who attended a conference held by a King on a long ago island......I also believe that Religion who believe in this bible has caused more problems than they are worth...

    Just before Gutenberg published the bible The church used to do VERY wicked things to priest or anyone for interpreting the bible without the consent of the church.....One of the worst offenders has been the Catholic Church.....How many people have been killed by the church.....?....

    so is this bible for real?

    I say it isn't...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2013
  2. Gandalf Greyhame

    Gandalf Greyhame Well-Known Member

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    Whether the bible is true is a better argument. It's certainly real.

    There's a grain of truth behind every tale- history is ripe with examples. Take Homer's works, and the tales of troy.

    Now, obviously, organized religion has frequently "reinterpreted" the bible as political climates changed throughout history. How much has been changed since the bible was originally written in the middle east is debatable, but there's certainly no definitive way to tell how much was edited.

    Things like copies of the jewish Torah being found in caves in the ME certainly sheds light on the subject, as then we have a much older source to compare the King James bible, and older bibles, against. Gutenburgs printed bible has done a great deal to prevent accidental or deliberate changes to the bible by scribes, as a machine is less likely to misrecall or miswrite a line of text.

    How much of the bible is true, and how much was edited by the church to fit a viewpoint I do not know. Finding more old copies of the bible that were hidden would be invaluable to determine what has been changed since its writing.
    As to whether the bible itself is true, that's entirely a matter of faith. If you believe in a Judeochristian god, you probably believe in the bible, or at least the main events in the Bible. There's really no way to prove or disprove the Bible as true, so the issue comes down again to if you believe it is true or not.
     
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  3. nashy19

    nashy19 Nashy (as himself)

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    It doesn't have to be a matter of truth or lies, you can variations of ancient stories that have spread around the world and were fictional before being treated as factual. I think there's examples of many older stories which share obvious similarities with each other.
     
  4. Bat Masterson

    Bat Masterson Banned

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    My wife is German, and very often I have heard her tell me that a certain phrase or quote she says in GERMAN does not translate well into English. Now I know for a fact that many editions of this bible has been translated and think of how it is being mis-translated or in correctly translated.....

    As far as I/we are concerned the whole book is FICTION pure and simple.....same as the KORAN.....Too many religious zealots in this world......Too many conflicts and HATE in this world and almost ALL of it caused by RELIGION. Time for it to stop......Strict Muslims following a certain doctrine doing great harm to Their own girls.......ALL religions are HORRIBLE and too many people have lost their lives in following them.....
     
  5. Gandalf Greyhame

    Gandalf Greyhame Well-Known Member

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    Religion has done good, too. (Christian churches in all these examples)

    • The Church is the largest single provider of healthcare in the world
    • also the largest single provider of education in the world
    • The first orphanages were churches
    • Barnardos is the world's largest orphanage system
    • Churches pioneered the first homes for the elderly
    • and the first homes for the disabled in society
    • Leading society to abolish the slave trade (Wilberforce and the church)
    • Free health care for the terminally ill (Douglas Macmillan)
    • Pioneers of modern nursing (F.Nightingale)
    • Almost all schools were church founded before the state took over
    • 100 out of 110 US universities were church founded (inc. Yale, Princeton and Harvard)
    • Pioneers of free schooling for poor young people (John Pounds)
    • School for children in slums (R.Raikes)
    • World Literacy pioneers (SIL and Frank Lauback)
    • Pioneers of education for the deaf (Rev. Gallaudet)
    • First laws to protect children from abuse (Soc. PCC - Rev B Waugh)
    • Fighting for the rights of children working in factories (Richard Oastler)
    • as well as campaigning for Poor Law reform
    • Josephine Butler campaigned for the age of consent to be set to 16 so children could not be abused.
    • YMCA - caring for young people in society
    • Salvation Army - pioneering radical care for the poor and disadvantaged in society
    • Education for orphans (George Mueller)
    • Campaigning for prison reform (Quakers)
    • Alcoholics (and Narcotics) Anonymous (Dr. B.Smith)
    • Leading society to adopt "fair trade" (Tearfund)
    • Pioneers of Microfinance for poor countries (D.Bussau)
    • Pioneers of international child sponsorship (World Vision, Dr. R. Price)
    • Save The Children, huge worldwide mission (Eglantyne Jebb)
    • Fathers of modern famine relief (Oxfam Quakers)
    • International Housing for the poor - Habitat for Humanity (Millard Fuller)
    • Justice for people worldwide who are oppressed (Amnesty International - P.Beneson, E.Baker)
    • Leprosy Mission - caring for those no-one else wants (Dr. P.Wilson)


    Say what you will, religions have done a lot of good. 99% of religious people are not zealots, are not burning houses and rioting, are not fighting religious wars.
     
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  6. Elmyr

    Elmyr Mod Emeritus

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    As I've been saying a lot lately, religion doesn't kill people, people kill people. If we didn't use religion as an excuse, we'd find another reason to kill each other.
     
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  7. Gandalf Greyhame

    Gandalf Greyhame Well-Known Member

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    Very well put! Most of history's greatest mass murders were not perpetrated for religious reasons at all.
     
  8. tigermite

    tigermite Well-Known Member

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    Gods don't kill people. People with gods kill people.

    Yeah, irrelevant, anyway, Gandalf and Nashy put the point on it.
    The bible is real in the sense that it exists. Whether its' contents are accurate or not is another matter entirely. Personally I think that they're merely a set of homophobic and misogynistic rules designed to keep primitive societies in check, which should have been thrown out hundreds of years ago. But that's just my viewpoint.
    As for whether religion is good or bad, it is not necessarily the religion itself that is bad (putting aside homophobic, misogynistic and genocidal elements) it is people's interpretation of it, and how they act upon those interpretations.
     
  9. nashy19

    nashy19 Nashy (as himself)

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    I'm more concerned with how religion can affect people psychologically. I mean the fear of hell from childhood, the feeling of guilt, things not adding up (especially if you notice hypocrites), sometimes being left with a very limited scientific understanding. I've never come across or been close friends with a really religious person, but this exists in people that are non-religious now or people who just treat it as a label with certain customs to follow.

    The self-centred folk who think the world practically revolves around them and they'll be rewarded for helping people to please God... Or the people who think they are part of a war between good and evil, with demons and rituals. I think they must be pretty screwed up. I release that there are many different ways of thinking, but some of the mindsets are just bad.

    When people are leading very troubled lives and going between different religious groups (usually in ghettos or slums), seeking the religious guidance they think they need, but always meeting people with negative views of them. I feel sorry for those.

    I've never thought much about it killing people, I'd think they had other reasons besides religion.
    Although, it would be best if the enemy was of another religion, so it does have a place in war.

    Edit: This is way off the point which was the bible, oops :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
  10. Victor Kruger

    Victor Kruger Well-Known Member

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    There are at least 10 gospels that never made it into the new testament, this isnt because god edited it to include only the truth

    The REAL reason so few books made the final cut was that they suited the political ambitions of those in control at the time. Christianity began as a radical movement against orthodox Judaism and Roman imperialism. This is when all those Christians were martyred in the Colosseum. Anyway, the movement gained momentum as the Roman empire declined, until, in and effort to maintain power, Emperor Constantine said "If you can't beat 'em, assimilate 'em." And so he converted the empire, and established an orthodox Christian church for political reasons. So, any of those wild, subversive books, particularly those Gnostic ones which taught a rejection of authority and worldly powers and pleasures in favor of Buddah-like enlightenment, had to go. And so we have a Roman Pope in place of a Roman Emperor, and a religion designed for political control rather than spiritual illumination.

    The Bible for me is an ancient form of control, a very powerful one too. When all else fails like law and government there is faith and these books to keep some form of order, a safety net to stop humanity from regressing too far.

    There is no question that some need this others wish this and even more find comfort in it. some unfortunately exploit it and always have. Are the writings true ? I very much doubt it, a large proportion carry far too many similarities with other older works and legends.

    So much from the old world was incorporated into its pages in order im sure to be more appealing to as wide a range as possible.

    What I do find most fascinating is the surviving teachings of Jesus is very not in line with the Jewish faith so much as Buddhist. Between the pages of these books are some real people ive no doubt but man is very good at weaving tales, nevertheless it survives and to many it is verbatim and not for questioning, proof positive of how powerful this masterpiece is even today.

    I don't consider it dangerous only the people who decide to use it as an excuse to do others harm, the same goes for all these great works.
     
  11. orgo

    orgo Well-Known Member

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    Another thing to consider is the wonder of human capacity as it relates to a text like the Bible. If one person like J.R.R. Tolkien is able to write a text like The Silmarillion and then the Lord of the Rings and create a cosmology and a historical account as deep if not deeper than the Bible, imagine what countless, nameless monks and scribes throughout history were able to do with the content they had at hand and their own imagination.

    Yeah the Bible is literally the greatest work of fiction known to man authored by countless master, dare I say genius, storytellers.
     
  12. nashy19

    nashy19 Nashy (as himself)

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  13. Scrapes

    Scrapes Member

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    Is the Bible real......

    ....Yes it is and it is the only standard of truth that has held up with time, here's the deal tho in John 3:3 it says you must be born again this is a spiritual birth vs a physical birth, without this spiritual birth the Bible says we have scales over our eyes preventing us from seeing and or understanding spiritual matters, the story of the apostle Paul explains the spiritual birth, so does the story of Nicodemus..................these are the words of God, which I choose to believe so if you choose not to believe it than that's on you i'm not hear to argue I'm just answering the question that was posted, thank you and remember Jesus love's you.
     
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  14. RavenDB

    RavenDB Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is real, someone has written it, and i have one or two at home, seen it many times so unless im halucinating i say its real...

    The question is are the STORIES real, maybe, maybe not. Do remember most stories in the bible are OLD, very OLD!

    I believe alot of whats in the bible is "true" atleast in a sense of whats true! Most of it are GUIDELINES on how to live, how to behave versus others etc, to be good, do good and behave good. Some take the Bible literarily, that the world was created in 7 days... no it wasnt but it is a METAPHOR 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago people were UNEDUCATED, how do you explain it simply enough so common men, without any education or even very little experience in life could understand, well break the creation down into "7 days" its far more easier to understand than billions of years (wich frankly alot of people still struggle to understand how wast that time span actually is".

    Do remember ALL religious literature are written by COMMON MEN! The Bible, Torah, Kuran etc... And most importantly its ALL INTERPRETED by COMMON MEN!
     
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  15. RavenDB

    RavenDB Well-Known Member

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    So true!
     
  16. Mustang Kate

    Mustang Kate Well-Known Member

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    There is much archaeological proof for many of the people in the Bible, and more comes to light all the time. Plus the artifacts discovered and the place names found on scrolls, pottery, etc. All have verified many people in the Bible as having lived and breathed and were real, during the time the Bible says they were. Also, if you look at prophecy, and it's a daunting subject to get into, many of the Old Testament prophecies were written thousands of years ago and then came to pass exactly as described. But the Bible is not meant to be 'a book of stories'. It is meant for teaching, for revealing God's timetable to us, it's part love letter and part history, and part a glimpse into the future of mankind. Lets face it, you have a one to one chance of dying. The Bible will reveal to you what your choices are to spend eternity in, and it is your choice to make. As for me, I believe in Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
     
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  17. deiben

    deiben Well-Known Member

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    First time caller.....
    Long time listener....

    Per the subject line, the Bible is real.
    How you interpret it or what you make of it or what faith you put into it is up to you.
    That's it's amazing grace.

    Amen

    I'll hang up now and listen......
     
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  18. N o x

    N o x Active Member

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    Just my opinion, yes, the Bible is real, as are the other religious books mentioned prior. The Pseudepigrapha and other Apocrypha writings, such as the Book of Jasher, which Christ mentions in the Bible, but are not included in the Bible, are all part of human kinds attempt to rationalize the world, the universe, and mankind... filled with mysticism, truth, and beauty in their individual works and stories.

    The Bible has been used for both good and evil, as a tool to spread faith, help people, and as a weapon of oppression. Many of the books of the Bible are shared with the Kuran and the Torah, yet people would draw a division between religions rather than a kindred voice of unity.

    Just my thoughts, all the religions of the world, are like those sitting in a cosmic church, on pews, in front of a Almighty Creative force, being, or what name you might use..... and arguing over which song of praise the Almighty loves most, not understanding that each song of praise is in itself beautiful and correct.

    I myself worship as Job, giving to my native american ancestors their due, not saying I am right, but my perspective is that we are all made of the same stuff as the stars, there is a cosmic thread that runs through the universe, all have a right to be here, what good or evil is done is on the person doing it, not blaming the Bible or religion of others.

    What is real, what is just, it is to us all to determine that reality for ourselves. Yes, the Bible is real.