Russian Anti-Putin Protests

DeletedUser16008

Let's not forget that not long ago the richest man in the world fell into the hands of his own people, was pistol whipped, knifed & shot in the head. I think every head of state probably sat up on hearing that and may be one reason why Putin is treading cautiously on the issue of the demonstrations. Democracy will not come overnight to Russia, but inch-by-inch the people are fighting for it and I wish them well.

I hope your not referring to Gaddaffi. There is a lot more to that I expect and for sure the UN at least was present which they lied about. Putin certainly had something to say about it ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al_m15uyMMc

I found it rather interesting having someone like Putin give that information out, was he just telling porky pies ? somehow I doubt it...


PS Hes right about McCain btw :no:
 

DeletedUser

Well... Want a poor guy - rich guy example... Here's one.. They were both found guilty of sexual assault.

Rich Guy - Plead guilty, was given an unconditional discharge. (was the coach or GM of a CFL [Canadian Football League] team)

Poor Guy - There wasn't any evidence to tie him to the crime. The victims refused to testify. He was found guilty and spent a year in jail. He really is innocent of the crimes he was found guilty of.. that's why the victims refused to testify.
 

DeletedUser

I hope your not referring to Gaddaffi. There is a lot more to that I expect and for sure the UN at least was present which they lied about. Putin certainly had something to say about it ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al_m15uyMMc

I found it rather interesting having someone like Putin give that information out, was he just telling porky pies ? somehow I doubt it...


If the Japanese government claimed Gaddafi was killed by aliens, would you believe it too, without any hint of source or confirmation of that statement, just because it opposes the view of Western media?



PS: I picked the Japanese, because some of their government accepted the existence of UFO's (as actual alien spaceships) a couple years ago. No offense intended.
 

Diggo11

Well-Known Member
russiapoll.jpg
 

DeletedUser

I found it rather interesting having someone like Putin give that information out, was he just telling porky pies ? somehow I doubt it...
A former KGB head giving out misinformation? No, that could never happen.:rolleyes:
 
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DeletedUser

So can I. And I limit myself to parties, because it was the topic you brought up and that you and me have addressed the whole time.

You live in two party system and want me to provide example of party witch hunt?
Can i go around Europe for example or to some movements in US?

There are cartel offices, trade unions etc. to control companies, the market and protect the workers, so it doesn't get out of hand. While there are problems with unemployment or low-income-jobs, the system is by far better than a command economy with faked full employment and generally a vastly lower living standard.
Don't know much about the electric sector in the US. It works fine here, although the major companies are constantly criticized and under close watch of the cartel office, we have dozens of minor companies, that gain a lot of new customers especially after the Fukushima incident, when more people realized, it's better to rely on non-nuclear power.


Theoretically system is great, but as i said as the power of big companies raises system corrupts proportionally.
Who finances the politicians and why do they do it? Answer this to yourself and you will see where is the problem with capitalism, on one side you have people that can and do buy off politicians to protect their interests, so you have illusion of democracy in which legally elected representatives of people protects interests of 1% of the richest.
While i do agree that command economy is not good (good part there is that power is in the hand of state not companies) i am equally against form of capitalism in which all the power lies in hands of 1% of the richest people. Some form of capitalism heavily regulated by the state would be the best solution.
Btw enron was dealing in contracts for electric power.
I heard about some problems with supply of california after privatization but not sure about details.


Again, to illustrate how courts don't treat everyone equal, you need:

Case A:
- crime x
- law y
- rich person accused

Case B:
- crime x (the very same as case A)
- law y (the very same as case A)
- poor person accused

It's vitally important that you compare the very same crime to which the very same law is applied. There's no use to compare a poor guy's murder in India in 1927 with a rich guy's rape in Australia in 2010. The only variable has to be the income/wealth of the accused person. It also doesn't have to be the same court or judge, because we can assume that to be independent and equal as long the applied law remains constant.
Obviously you need to have 2 cases. Find a case of fraud (or whatever Enron was charged with) with a poor person accused and you can make a point.

"The wife of a former Minnesota Vikings player and current restaurant owner runs into a man and kills him in a car accident, leaves the scene, yet she’s not in jail."

This was one of first google results, call me crazy but common sense tells me that in this case most of the people would rot in jail till trial. Then, it might be that i don't understand words justice and law....

You're spinning the story beyond recognition, i gave you an examples from recent history, same norms apply for both of them, i can't give you example of poor person who stole millions of dollars, and if you fraud someone for hundred dollars and for hundred millions it is not the same criminal act.
and as i see someone posted you example you were looking for.

EDIT: never underestimate jerks *sighs*. Of course providing links or at least names instead of totally random anonymous cases, is a requirement, as well.

Ok what info do you want? Privatizations gone under here? Proof of undemocratic conduct of US. Proof that US is not democracy run by big businesses? That civil rights there are getting stripped of the ordinary man every minute? Feel free to type whatever you want.


That constitutional court ruled 10 times this year something unconstitutional. It wasn't just an occasional good decision. I just picked that case because it was the most popular.
Surely preventive detention works well in Guantanamo, even better with the new National Defense Authorization Act, if Obama signs it. As I said before, the US don't have a perfect democracy, and if that law goes alive I wouldn't hesitate to say the US are screwed a lot more than they are now. I'm glad our constitution forbids detention without trials for anyone, torture and the like.

Guantanamo and that last sentence doesn't go hand in hand, how come there is no detention without trials and there is guantanamo? In fact when you come to think about it one country that produced so much wars and misery in last decade shouldn't have the right call itself democracy.


If the Japanese government claimed Gaddafi was killed by aliens, would you believe it too, without any hint of source or confirmation of that statement, just because it opposes the view of Western media?

I'm sure he just tripped over stairs, accidentally stabbing himself and shooting himself in the process.
Personally i doubt that anything in Libya was done without US approval.
Really interesting thing with those bodies, sadam and his sons - televised, gaddafi - televised, bin laden - due to respect for muslims buried at sea, what a joke:D

Let's not forget that not long ago the richest man in the world fell into the hands of his own people, was pistol whipped, knifed & shot in the head. I think every head of state probably sat up on hearing that and may be one reason why Putin is treading cautiously on the issue of the demonstrations. Democracy will not come overnight to Russia, but inch-by-inch the people are fighting for it and I wish them well.


I see its all peachy in the countries you choosed to implement "democracy"? Came in screwed up functional countries took the oil and country restoration contracts leaving a mess behind yourself you love to call "democracy".

About Putin i will quote myself:

Someone knifed and shot Gates?
Wouldn't say he is overly cautious, he said election results were realistic, next time they will install cameras and promised 10 billions to EU with message to bug off from Russian internal affairs.

Democracy is an illusion, and people in their stupidity are fighting for new set of thieves to get into control of country, simple as that, but while we are on the subject what is an example of democratic country you wish for russians?
 

DeletedUser16008

If the Japanese government claimed Gaddafi was killed by aliens, would you believe it too, without any hint of source or confirmation of that statement, just because it opposes the view of Western media?



PS: I picked the Japanese, because some of their government accepted the existence of UFO's (as actual alien spaceships) a couple years ago. No offense intended.


Like i really care if hes lying or not I already told you i dislike the guy for many reasons, however ........ The US did have a role that much is certain and the UN WERE there contrary to what they have said and im pretty sure not everything Putin said was untrue either... we shall never know but contrary to the assumption the US is automatically innocent like some... in fact the record of lies betrayal and BS speaks for itself... the US is the greatest culprit with possibly the exception of the British gov..

K first off I happen to see Putin as nothing more than a Russian ex KGB made good. Very sterio type old school from the cold war. 20 Euro Ireland Gold 2008 Skellig Michael / Insel Michael

No Eli im well aware of his background but it dosn't mean everything the man says isnt without interest and hes not the first to infer US interference, of course the US would never be involved with something so distal .. ohhh no ;)

Ohh and Diggo rather than be a smartass inferring Russians are all Liars Id point out a certain GW Bush won his last term by cooking the books ... ask Kerry ;) im gonna have to delve into aussie politics more often i think but from what i can tell Aus is a patsy for both the US AND GB anyway.

Has this thread run its course yet ? :D
 

DeletedUser

You live in two party system and want me to provide example of party witch hunt?

The last time I went voting I had the choice between 12 parties.
There were 27 parties in total who couldn't be elected everywhere due to having no support in some areas (no witch hunt reasons, trust me, otherwise they wouldn't have been available anywhere).
Five of them made it to the parliament.
While it's true that (so far at least) always one of two, sometimes both, parties is/are part of the government, I wouldn't call it a two party system, because there's at least one other party part of the government and 4 to 5 parties part of the parliament.


Theoretically system is great, but as i said as the power of big companies raises system corrupts proportionally.
Who finances the politicians and why do they do it? Answer this to yourself and you will see where is the problem with capitalism, on one side you have people that can and do buy off politicians to protect their interests, so you have illusion of democracy in which legally elected representatives of people protects interests of 1% of the richest.
While i do agree that command economy is not good (good part there is that power is in the hand of state not companies) i am equally against form of capitalism in which all the power lies in hands of 1% of the richest people. Some form of capitalism heavily regulated by the state would be the best solution.
Btw enron was dealing in contracts for electric power.
I heard about some problems with supply of california after privatization but not sure about details.

As long as you have a proper constitution and institutions that have the power to enforce and apply it to everyone, the system is relatively stable and safe from massive corruption.
I suppose you're looking for a social market economy, which is in fact the system here.
And as I said before, I have no clue about electric companies in the US.

i can't give you example of poor person who stole millions of dollars, and if you fraud someone for hundred dollars and for hundred millions it is not the same criminal act.

I believe, you're beginning to understand it.


Guantanamo and that last sentence doesn't go hand in hand, how come there is no detention without trials and there is guantanamo?

Probably because the US doesn't give a damn about our constitution or human rights. They have their own after all.


I see its all peachy in the countries you choosed to implement "democracy"? Came in screwed up functional countries took the oil and country restoration contracts leaving a mess behind yourself you love to call "democracy".

I didn't choose to implement democracy anywhere. Also I wouldn't call pre-2001-Afghanistan a functional country. After all it was a scene of war among islamistic extremists and a union, that wanted to institute democracy itself, no? And correct me if I'm wrong, but Afghanistan is no oil country, is it?
 

DeletedUser

The last time I went voting I had the choice between 12 parties.
There were 27 parties in total who couldn't be elected everywhere due to having no support in some areas (no witch hunt reasons, trust me, otherwise they wouldn't have been available anywhere).
Five of them made it to the parliament.
While it's true that (so far at least) always one of two, sometimes both, parties is/are part of the government, I wouldn't call it a two party system, because there's at least one other party part of the government and 4 to 5 parties part of the parliament.


You are American? Essentially two party system and few extras just to fill the space.


As long as you have a proper constitution and institutions that have the power to enforce and apply it to everyone, the system is relatively stable and safe from massive corruption.
I suppose you're looking for a social market economy, which is in fact the system here.
And as I said before, I have no clue about electric companies in the US.


Probably thats why they gave 700 billions to banks with no clue where did the money went, because of proper institutions.
I believe i am looking for scandinavian model.

I believe, you're beginning to understand it.

I on the other hand believe that you're still missing the point.


Probably because the US doesn't give a damn about our constitution or human rights. They have their own after all.


Thats my point, they don't.


I didn't choose to implement democracy anywhere. Also I wouldn't call pre-2001-Afghanistan a functional country. After all it was a scene of war among islamistic extremists and a union, that wanted to institute democracy itself, no? And correct me if I'm wrong, but Afghanistan is no oil country, is it?

Would you call Iraq functional country, or even more obvious example Libya?
Nope they didn't wanted democracy, they wanted power and all of the lucrative perks that goes with that.
 

DeletedUser

You are American? Essentially two party system and few extras just to fill the space.

Nope.
Along with Michael Moore's success in the early 2000s I got to know of a third party (see Ralph Nader) in the US, but I don't think that ever got any position of power, let alone seats in their parliament. That's imo a major problem with the democracy in the US.

I believe i am looking for scandinavian model.

That's pretty much a social market economy, no?

Would you call Iraq functional country, or even more obvious example Libya?
Nope they didn't wanted democracy, they wanted power and all of the lucrative perks that goes with that.

I would. But since we haven't "chosen to implement democracy" there and haven't sent any soldiers in either country to do so, I didn't mention them.
Besides, Libya was a very reliable partner in oil trades. Claiming troops were sent there to get their oil, just because it was a valid assumption for the Iraq war, is naive at best. But Libya had its own thread, let's leave that there.
 

DeletedUser

Nope.
Along with Michael Moore's success in the early 2000s I got to know of a third party (see Ralph Nader) in the US, but I don't think that ever got any position of power, let alone seats in their parliament. That's imo a major problem with the democracy in the US.

My mistake.
I know of Ralph Nader, as i said, there are extras that are mainly there to fill the space.

That's pretty much a social market economy, no?


Yup, you're right.

I would. But since we haven't "chosen to implement democracy" there and haven't sent any soldiers in either country to do so, I didn't mention them.
Besides, Libya was a very reliable partner in oil trades. Claiming troops were sent there to get their oil, just because it was a valid assumption for the Iraq war, is naive at best. But Libya had its own thread, let's leave that there.

Lets say they were too independent and leave it at that.
 

Diggo11

Well-Known Member
Ohh and Diggo rather than be a smartass inferring Russians are all Liars Id point out a certain GW Bush won his last term by cooking the books ... ask Kerry ;) im gonna have to delve into aussie politics more often i think but from what i can tell Aus is a patsy for both the US AND GB anyway.
Lolwut? Inferring all Russians are liars? How do you get "Russians are all liars" from a pic allegedly showing vote rigging by Putin's government? :rolleyes:

Can't speak for the U.S., however the main difference between most western countries and Russia is who organises and monitors the elections. In Australia we have the Australian Electoral Commission (AEC), an independent body, who organises elections. Votes are counted by officers of this body, and each party is allowed to have one nominee present to scrutinise the vote. Contrast this to Russia - the government has near full control of the elections. The primary body working against corruption had its website DDOSed and officers had a very limited view of general proceedings. (If you are interested in some extra reading though, there was a prime minister or premier [forgotten exactly who] that moved the election boundaries unfairly to assure his government's re-election, a responsibility now handled by the AEC.)

As I mentioned earlier I know very little regarding the American safeguards against voterigging, but I know you like a nice conspiracy so I'm not even going to bother arguing about the allegations against George W Bush. It's off-topic and, as usual, without evidence. Believe it or not there really were people in the United States mindless enough to vote for him a second time :razz:
 

DeletedUser

Votes are counted by officers of this body, and each party is allowed to have one nominee present to scrutinise the vote.

We have the same system here and its easily exploitable. Recently there were election in one of the boroughs, electoral lists are closed 10 days before the elections, court that is usually epicly slow managed to change residences of 3000 people in those 10 days so that party in power wouldn't lose, although it didn't help.

They will probably do the same in this elections, after closing electoral lists they will change residences of their supporters allowing them to vote 2 times.
I am emphasizing that we have all the democratic instruments of control and this still happens.

About GWB i would recommend to read up a little about that, its far from some fabricated conspiracy.
 

Diggo11

Well-Known Member
We have the same system here and its easily exploitable. Recently there were election in one of the boroughs, electoral lists are closed 10 days before the elections, court that is usually epicly slow managed to change residences of 3000 people in those 10 days so that party in power wouldn't lose, although it didn't help.

They will probably do the same in this elections, after closing electoral lists they will change residences of their supporters allowing them to vote 2 times.
I am emphasizing that we have all the democratic instruments of control and this still happens.
You must be an Aussie too yeah? As I'm sure you are aware, John Howard changed the electoral laws, as he was entitled to do so. An election later three thousand independent voters challenged this in the High Court where the new laws were found to be unconstitutional, so they were overturned in favour of the previous laws. This decision was independent of the government, and whilst it probably favoured them [The Labor Party] given they are stereotypically more popular amongst younger citizens, they themselves did not change the law nor rigged votes. It really just displays the opposite - people have power over elections. Laws unnecessarily preventing people from voting are overturned, the government cannot falsify voting results and, unlike in Russia, people do have a method of appeal to make the above true. As many half-arsed reporting sources have indicated, Putin isn't exactly playing nice with any peaceful protests. Imagine if the High Court sent riot police to go arrest all the people involved in the class action hehe, then we'd be talking...

Although, please do enlighten me where the High Court advised they were entitled to vote twice. When the AEC changes your address, you are removed from one electorates roll and added to another. I am yet to see any evidence of anyone voting twice.

About GWB i would recommend to read up a little about that, its far from some fabricated conspiracy.
Oh I'm sure someone respectable has put their name to the theory, but as usual I'm yet to see any evidence posted in the discussion. Pics or it didn't happen ;)
 
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DeletedUser

You must be an Aussie too yeah? As I'm sure you are aware, John Howard changed the electoral laws, as he was entitled to do so. An election later three thousand independent voters challenged this in the High Court where the new laws were found to be unconstitutional, so they were overturned in favour of the previous laws. This decision was independent of the government, and whilst it probably favoured them [The Labor Party] given they are stereotypically more popular amongst younger citizens, they themselves did not change the law nor rigged votes. It really just displays the opposite - people have power over elections. Laws unnecessarily preventing people from voting are overturned, the government cannot falsify voting results and, unlike in Russia, people do have a method of appeal to make the above true. As many half-arsed reporting sources have indicated, Putin isn't exactly playing nice with any peaceful protests. Imagine if the High Court sent riot police to go arrest all the people involved in the class action hehe, then we'd be talking...

Although, please do enlighten me where the High Court advised they were entitled to vote twice. When the AEC changes your address, you are removed from one electorates roll and added to another. I am yet to see any evidence of anyone voting twice.

Well firstly i'm not an aussie :)
Elections i was telling you about happened recently in eastern europe, and other part will happen soon. Of course that's not legal and no institution allowed voters to vote twice, its just example of exploiting the system.

Oh I'm sure someone respectable has put their name to the theory, but as usual I'm yet to see any evidence posted in the discussion. Pics or it didn't happen

Who is respectable in your opinion, i guess that any name provided by me will get a spitfest from you.
 

DeletedUser

Diggo was only being lightly sarcastic anarchy. Please don't drag this debate down into name-calling. Seems like this thread has lost the topic anyway.
Finding fault with democracy is like dumping your girlfriend because she doesn't put the cap back on the toothpaste tube.
 

DeletedUser

Diggo was only being lightly sarcastic anarchy. Please don't drag this debate down into name-calling. Seems like this thread has lost the topic anyway.
Finding fault with democracy is like dumping your girlfriend because she doesn't put the cap back on the toothpaste tube.


Topic was lost long time ago. Name calling is your sport Eli, you showed that very early in this thread, didnt even crossed my mind to offend diggo in any way.
It is not about finding fault, it is about showing whole system is basicly an illusion. But thats way offtopic...
 

DeletedUser

If you want to know more about illusions... Neil Bissoondath wrote a book called Selling Illusions. Have fun. :p

In the late 60's and early 70's the Quebec Premiere was rigging the votes. The Simpsons actually had an episode about that. It happens but eventually he was out of the office.
 

DeletedUser

Everyone deserves the government they have, if they don't like it then they will rise up and overcome it. The majority will ALWAYS have the true power, they just don't always realise it.
 

Diggo11

Well-Known Member
Who is respectable in your opinion, i guess that any name provided by me will get a spitfest from you.
Omg, you're a spitfest! :p

Someone apart from Keanu Reeves will do. Ya know, a good old fashioned source that actually has some authoritative voice. Surely someone has written an article or book on the issue, unless these Bush vote rigging ideas were just pulled from a random anus. Show me what I can "read up a little" to see the arguments and evidence indicating it's indeed not a fabricated conspiracy - I'm all ears.

Everyone deserves the government they have, if they don't like it then they will rise up and overcome it. The majority will ALWAYS have the true power, they just don't always realise it.
As we've seen in the Middle East uprising against your government isn't always such a simple task, although yeah, if you don't hold your government accountable then expect a lazy one. For any half arsed democracy it usually is as simple as that... corporations hold all the money, but at the end of the day re-election is the name of the game.
 
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