DeletedUser
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/07/us-russia-protests-socialmedia-idUSTRE7B60R720111207
since no-one else has set up a thread,
thoughts?
since no-one else has set up a thread,
thoughts?
DeletedUser
I know better than to believe the usual media rants, and all that media coverage about those protests and stories about "bad result" (50% is bad?) of Putin party makes things even more suspicious.
Probably someone is trying to push their own interests through that anti Putin movement. We had similar things here.
Probably someone is trying to push their own interests through that anti Putin movement. We had similar things here.
DeletedUser
If you ban opposition parties in the first place, have your election helpers vote for you a couple times instead of the people, have soldiers vote in place of their comrades, buy votes etc., then 50% is indeed bad.
DeletedUser
Wouldn't know much about election irregularities in Russia so i can't answer you on this one.
But tell me this one (example is not necessarily Russian). If you have political parties, or activists, or movements abundantly financed from abroad, by sole purpose of taking power in country and serving someone else's interests what is the right course of action?
DeletedUser
Activists/movements trying to take over power in a democratic country/change something should
a) vote for a party, that deals with their interests
b) create a political party on their own (worked well with Green parties in the ~70s or Pirates lately)
c) rebel, if a and b are no options.
In a democracy, it's the purpose of political parties to take power in a country. There's nothing wrong with it. A government-independent institution (e.g. constitutional court) however should check parties for their aims and ban those that oppose democracy itself (see NSDAP for example). This should obviously not be done by the government itself to get rid of opponents easily and hence oppress the people.
DeletedUser
Regardless of how and by whom they are financed?
And of course their declarative aims will be "democratic".
At the end that could be done only if you have truly independent institution which is questionable for any country.
about c) who decides are a) or b) options?
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DeletedUser
I would rather vote for a party that was funded from abroad but offered me freedom than some mafioso who stole his money from my own people.
Don't get hung up on irrelevant conspiracies. When a government has nothing to hide it does not crack down on (peaceful) protestors.
Don't get hung up on irrelevant conspiracies. When a government has nothing to hide it does not crack down on (peaceful) protestors.
DeletedUser
Party funded from abroad whose sole purpose is to establish democracy, freedom and nice living for its people is contradiction in terms.
If they are funded from abroad they are there to serve interests of their financiers. No such thing as a free lunch.
Its not irrelevant for gods sake, what would americans do if they had party which is funded heavily by Russia or China? And no, i don't think Putin is perfect, far from it, but i am suspicious about the motives of those protesters.
It's all been seen before in many countries. When someone is getting money from outside he is not working for you. If you insist i will give you an example.
edit: Every government on this planet has something to hide...
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DeletedUser
What's the big deal where the parties are funded from? There are no foreign voters, but only ones from within the country. It's their vote, not some ominous foreign investor's. If there was a party in the US favouring Russia's or China's over US interests, it would hardly be elected.
Now we can argue on a philosophical level about a truly independent institution, but the independence of executive, legislature and judiciary on a political/social level is fact for many countries.
regarding a) A party's programme can be found on their homepage or should be available as a handout in their local offices. If you can read, you can get to know if there's a party dealing with your specific interests. You decide yourself if voting for a party is an option
regarding b) If there's no party suited for you, you can found one. Usually you need some like-minded people to support your party, mainly to avoid having an amount of parties equal to the population of a country. Seeing that there are parties for pensioners, animal rights, literal bible interpretations, spiritualists etc, you can get a one-theme-party running with wacko ideas. The Green Parties and Pirates are living proof that even when you start as an absolute outsider with only one theme in the beginning, you can end up in the government.
Now it's easily decided if b) is an option. Can you found a party and get it running or will you be stopped by the system to do that? If you aren't allowed to create your own party (although you manage the couple thousand signature hurdle), then something's wrong.
DeletedUser
There is no foreign votes but there are foreign interests. And they are there to defend them. Publicly they swear into democracy, and since majority of people are idiots easy to manipulate with no capability of critical thinking, if party is supported by enough money and medias they would have a good chance of winning in few years.
No one would favor China's or Russia's interest publicly, in fact publicly they would probably be stars and stripes type of party, or use some more subtle way of manipulation.
Reality tends to disagree with you, if judicial system is truly independent and treats all people like equal, and treats people based only by the deeds they done how come rich people tends to get punished a lot less than poor ones. ergo system is influenced largely by money and politics, so its not independent.
DeletedUser
If the majority of people are idiots, then it wouldn't matter to them who'd rule them anyway. And if you're belonging to the 1% sane population and see the majority of fellows do stupid things, then emigrate. You wouldn't be the first taking that decision and you won't be the last either.
How can a party favour China's/Russia's interests not publicly? A party's actions lay open to anyone watching. If there's no one watching, then no one cares in the first place.
That has nothing to do with a government-independent institution or the separation of powers. An independent court works fine if it is able to disagree with and/or remove the laws passed by the current government; a rich-poor-comparison is irrelevant.
DeletedUser
Its the same in every nation, majority of people do not try to think for themselves and are easily convinced by the media.
Politics and promises in campaign are very much different than the actual politics once they win the elections.
So basically, you admit that my poor-rich comparison stands but you think its irrelevant for this matter? If one part of judicial system is so easily influenced why do you think they're not influenced in matters where government has its interest.
DeletedUser
Jeez anarchy, you have a pretty warped mindset. You seem to think that most people are mindless sheep who will be brainwashed by evil foreigners if they are given the chance.
Paranoia, mistrust, xenophobia and patronising will not make for a happy life.
When I chip in for a "Free Tibet" collection I do not become a 'financier' whose interests the Tibetan people are now serving. If you prefer domestic crooks to outside philanthropists then that's your concern - but don't tell me that 99% of 'other' people are stupid, because you have already set the bar pretty low.
Paranoia, mistrust, xenophobia and patronising will not make for a happy life.
When I chip in for a "Free Tibet" collection I do not become a 'financier' whose interests the Tibetan people are now serving. If you prefer domestic crooks to outside philanthropists then that's your concern - but don't tell me that 99% of 'other' people are stupid, because you have already set the bar pretty low.
DeletedUser
Promising tax cuts or whatever and not being able to deliver them is an entirely different thing than promising general welfare and instead creating a 1984 once elected.
If the majority of people do not think for themselves as you claim, how comes the USSR or China or islamistic terrorists in all the decades haven't simply funded a party to deal with their own interests in some western countries?
Getting a party elected with some secret agenda that they only reveal after an election is impossible.
No I don't agree with a general statement that rich people are more likely to get away with crimes than poor people. The real life is way more complicated than this simple sentence.
And even if that was the case, it'd be still irrelevant, because a constitutional court doesn't deal with it in the first place.
And I know they're not influenced by government's interest, because then they'd hardly remove and ban actions done by a government, no?
DeletedUser16008
K first off I happen to see Putin as nothing more than a Russian ex KGB made good. Very sterio type old school from the cold war. I don't like him my Russian friends consider him oppressive and backward thinking yet 100% Russian self interest at least, which is far more than any outside finance aided party is likely to be.
Are 99% sheeple ? well maybe more like 98% I think that much is obvious, regardless of whos brainwashing them although it has to be said the Western art of media propaganda and brainwashing is done with such finesse and subtlety is has become an art form, these "evil" foreigners indeed exist and in Russia were responsible for the fall of the Tzars and has been well remembered in Russian educated circles. I was surprised to be told this by a Russian friend many many years ago to which at the time I must admit I scoffed but it turns out to be true.
Early in the 19th century the great wealth of the Russian Czars was entrusted to the Rothschilds, $35 million with the Rothschild's Bank of England, and $80 million in the Rothschild's Paris bank. That was a mistake for the Rothschilds financed the Russian Revolution which also confiscated vast portions of the Orthodox Church's wealth never to be returned. They have been able to prevent (due to their power) the legitimate heirs of the Czars fortune to withdraw a penny of the millions deposited in a variety of their banks. The Mountbattans, who are related to the Rothschilds, led the court battles to prevent the claimants from withdrawing any of the fortune. In other words, the money they invested in the Russian Revolution, was not only paid back directly by the Bolshevists in millions of dollars of Russian gold, but by grabbing the hugh deposits of the Czars' wealth, the Rothschild finance operation gained what is now worth over $50 Billion.
Russia are very wary of any foriegn interferrence and with that track record you can hardly blame them, Paranoia, mistrust ? nope just real facts but you can bet that leads to xenophobia.
Id say 98% of people are stupid, a perfect example I shall give because I profited directly from this even tho I contacted many organisations and even Embassies when I found out the full story, regardless of evidence I provided most did not even believe me, nothing has ever been done and continues to this day. This border trade scam business turns over MILLIONS a year for Mafia and corrupt officials and aids the intended recipients nothing.
Some US charities amongst other countries but mainly the US give second hand clothes to what was the Peoples republic of Cambodia after the fall of Pol Pot and right up to current time continue to do so in order to support the poor and provide help clothing and financial aid through NON financial means to avoid the high corruption in the area just taking the money .... Now.... virtually ALL this clothing goes DIRECTLY from the airport where it arrives to the Border town of Siem Reap on the Thailand/Cambodia border where traders from Thailand arrive daily to buy enmass wholesale, to then distribute around Asia and Thailand on the second hand market. NOTHING goes to the poor people in Cambodia as intended, ALL profits apart from some for the border traders goes into the back pocket of corrupt Officials and Mafia in both countries and there you have it, an example of a scam that has been going on for at least 30 years even tho the intention is good it has been twisted since day one.
98% of people are clueless or in denial the another 1% are totally corrupt.
It is not that Anarchy is setting the bar "low" so to speak but rather the 98% will never step outside their bubble or closet meaning the bar can never be raised. If they cannot or refuse to see the higher rungs of that bar they will think they are already on the top when they are really on the bottom....and that's exactly what society wishes to enforce of course. Ignorance they say is bliss, but knowledge is power.
If you wish a metaphor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BuQFUhsRM
Wake up Eli unfortunately the matrix exists.
Are 99% sheeple ? well maybe more like 98% I think that much is obvious, regardless of whos brainwashing them although it has to be said the Western art of media propaganda and brainwashing is done with such finesse and subtlety is has become an art form, these "evil" foreigners indeed exist and in Russia were responsible for the fall of the Tzars and has been well remembered in Russian educated circles. I was surprised to be told this by a Russian friend many many years ago to which at the time I must admit I scoffed but it turns out to be true.
Early in the 19th century the great wealth of the Russian Czars was entrusted to the Rothschilds, $35 million with the Rothschild's Bank of England, and $80 million in the Rothschild's Paris bank. That was a mistake for the Rothschilds financed the Russian Revolution which also confiscated vast portions of the Orthodox Church's wealth never to be returned. They have been able to prevent (due to their power) the legitimate heirs of the Czars fortune to withdraw a penny of the millions deposited in a variety of their banks. The Mountbattans, who are related to the Rothschilds, led the court battles to prevent the claimants from withdrawing any of the fortune. In other words, the money they invested in the Russian Revolution, was not only paid back directly by the Bolshevists in millions of dollars of Russian gold, but by grabbing the hugh deposits of the Czars' wealth, the Rothschild finance operation gained what is now worth over $50 Billion.
Russia are very wary of any foriegn interferrence and with that track record you can hardly blame them, Paranoia, mistrust ? nope just real facts but you can bet that leads to xenophobia.
Id say 98% of people are stupid, a perfect example I shall give because I profited directly from this even tho I contacted many organisations and even Embassies when I found out the full story, regardless of evidence I provided most did not even believe me, nothing has ever been done and continues to this day. This border trade scam business turns over MILLIONS a year for Mafia and corrupt officials and aids the intended recipients nothing.
Some US charities amongst other countries but mainly the US give second hand clothes to what was the Peoples republic of Cambodia after the fall of Pol Pot and right up to current time continue to do so in order to support the poor and provide help clothing and financial aid through NON financial means to avoid the high corruption in the area just taking the money .... Now.... virtually ALL this clothing goes DIRECTLY from the airport where it arrives to the Border town of Siem Reap on the Thailand/Cambodia border where traders from Thailand arrive daily to buy enmass wholesale, to then distribute around Asia and Thailand on the second hand market. NOTHING goes to the poor people in Cambodia as intended, ALL profits apart from some for the border traders goes into the back pocket of corrupt Officials and Mafia in both countries and there you have it, an example of a scam that has been going on for at least 30 years even tho the intention is good it has been twisted since day one.
98% of people are clueless or in denial the another 1% are totally corrupt.
It is not that Anarchy is setting the bar "low" so to speak but rather the 98% will never step outside their bubble or closet meaning the bar can never be raised. If they cannot or refuse to see the higher rungs of that bar they will think they are already on the top when they are really on the bottom....and that's exactly what society wishes to enforce of course. Ignorance they say is bliss, but knowledge is power.
If you wish a metaphor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BuQFUhsRM
Wake up Eli unfortunately the matrix exists.
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DeletedUser
Oh? "The Matrix"? I hope I'm not alone in considering that movie (along with "The Truman Show") a piece of trite, jejune Hollywood gimcrack. I wouldn't rely on Warner Bros for my understanding of the world, much.
I'm not sure if you're a candidate Vic, but you should look into the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Most people who consider 90-something % of the world are lobotomised are generally not the full shilling themselves.
I like to misquote Kipling in these circumstances:
"IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you ......
- Maybe you're missing something"
I'm not sure if you're a candidate Vic, but you should look into the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Most people who consider 90-something % of the world are lobotomised are generally not the full shilling themselves.
I like to misquote Kipling in these circumstances:
"IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you ......
- Maybe you're missing something"
DeletedUser16008
Whats the matter Eli ? incapable of debating the subject further ?
This is typical nonsense from someone ignorant of the world around them and in denial, the very first thing they do is attempt to ridicule, attack and turn the debate personal. Duh i said the matrix was and is a simple metaphorical example nothing more.
When I said stupid id assume those reading here would realise i meant ignorant of the world around them not lobotomised, it hardly does you justice or enhances your own intellectual image to reduce the argument to name calling and insults. I can assure you im confident in speaking out regardless of whether its what people like to hear or not, popular or otherwise and am intimidated by no one, least of all some psycho study paper Nobel prize or not. I don't subscibe to Freuds Penis envy theory either :laugh: btw Obama got the Nobel peace prize while the US was engaged in two wars so again societies awards actually mean zip.
I claim to be nothing other than awake and curious of the world around me, something most people are indeed not. Maybe you need to get out of your little box on occasion and see a bit of the world and how it really works. I expect the very thought of having your bubble burst is frightening as it would mean your whole belief, system and purpose would come into question. Nevermind Eli nothing bad ever goes on in the world, scandals, hacking, tapping, spying, conspiracies, secrets, corruption and agendas don't exist, you wrap yourself up in the TV watch WWF and xfactor, trawl around on facebook, read Enquirer and the Sun and all the other mindnumbing stuff put out there itll all be ok, but please don't try to call me out here for being a complete clueless idiot unless you wish to dig yourself a very deep hole
Unbelievably, the percentage of the world's population being uneducated, is 46%.
That leaves 54% with what is considered basic educated level at least. The masses if you like have very basic education and nothing more worldwide.
6.7% Of the World Has a College Degree of which a large amount will be purely academic and proves no awareness of the real world around them.
21% of the world's population live in poverty. Include in that some amount of educated people.
Just a few % figures there and that hasn't even taken into consideration the number of educated people that follow the mass media blindly like still believing Iraq Had WMD cos the nice people told them so it must be true.
Nope i dont think 98% world ignorance guess is so far fetched at all.
suppose your going to deny this little gem too last week ....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5cLqY6_2X8&feature=player_embedded
More info http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfdCBdOHoYA lol ohhh boy are the sheeple going to get a shock in the near future, and i'm the idiot ??? Okaaaaayyyyyyyy.
Have a good weekend
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DeletedUser
Lack of education and ignorance is not the same, so your figures are meaningless. Uneducated people can be highly aware of their surroundings and well educated people can be completely unaware (you even gave an example for that yourself).
Also I hope you're awake and curious enough to realize that RT is Kreml-dictated and hence an equally useless source of information as the "Iraq-had-WMD"-channels.
Also I hope you're awake and curious enough to realize that RT is Kreml-dictated and hence an equally useless source of information as the "Iraq-had-WMD"-channels.
DeletedUser
No, just not terribly interested.
....and then you go and do just that! Lol bigtime.
I'm not concerned with arguing or persuading. I'm just the health warning on your packet.
...and PS :
"Duh i said the matrix was and is a simple metaphorical example nothing more."
and
"Wake up Eli unfortunately the matrix exists. "
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DeletedUser16008
I give as good as I get and make no apology for returning the favour Eli, I hope you are having fun playing silly word games because i simply do not care, ive met plenty of this ilk and i pity you along with the rest of them
Hilarious Jack anything not red white n blue is bound to be bad huh ?
Its ok I am aware all media is biased but RT is far more credible than say Fox or half the trash that controls the american networks it just happened to be the clip re wikileaks and in case you didnt notice it was a press release and not made up by RT lol yeesh people sometimes.
Im not trying to prove anything with numbers, and i don't have to, its my opinion nothing more, nor do i care if some wish to stay in their bubbles it wont affect me like it will them so its all good
Hilarious Jack anything not red white n blue is bound to be bad huh ?
Its ok I am aware all media is biased but RT is far more credible than say Fox or half the trash that controls the american networks it just happened to be the clip re wikileaks and in case you didnt notice it was a press release and not made up by RT lol yeesh people sometimes.
Im not trying to prove anything with numbers, and i don't have to, its my opinion nothing more, nor do i care if some wish to stay in their bubbles it wont affect me like it will them so its all good
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