Patrioticism

DeletedUser

Adelei Niska said:
Where do you get that there has to be one definition?
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I never said there was. I was asking for yours.

Who said anything about "trusting" my definition? My definition isn't even set for myself. I have certainly changed my mind about what would make up an ideal country over the years

What is the purpose and function of the flavor of strawberries vs. the flavor of chocolate? I don't see that patriotism necessarily needs a purpose or function. It is a definition of a state of mind and belief.
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So it is a belief that has no definition, no purpose and no function? Then I really can't figure out what that belief is and I don't understand what the point of believing in something that has no use is.


Fine...I'll share one of my ideals. One is that I think all people should have a voice, no matter how inane their opinion is... IMO, if you believe that those that disagree with you should shut up, that isn't a very patriotic belief as far as the US goes.
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But why do you consider that a "patriotic" ideal, rather than just an ethical one? It isn't any kind of culturally/nationally unique view. It is a rather widespread, commonplace one. I am trying to understand why you associate that ethical position with your country.

Don't lose any sleep over it. BTW, I don't understand many concepts well enough to question or define them properly...but I'm not overly concerned about them, either.
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That I really don't understand. If you don't understand what patriotism is (to you), how can you even be patriotic?

Artemis Gordon said:
I think of the difference between patriotism and nationalism to be similar to parenthood. Patriots are the parents who say their kids are the greatest, but recognize their faults (they aren't really the smartest, most beautiful and best behaved kids in the world) and nationalists are the parents who say their kids are the greatest and refuse to believe they'd ever do anything wrong.
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That analogy makes sense to me, Artemis, but your child is a real thing. A nation is just a political construct, with a mythos created (usually) over centuries in order to make the various communities within it seem unified.

The Italian idea of paesani makes sense. Those people who are your paesani are real. But a nation is too large a thing for any real unity or any real community. A nation, and the people in it, are abstract things. And as abstract things, why would the ethical system you use for dealing with them be limited to national boundaries?
 
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DeletedUser

thewall1.jpg
 

DeletedUser

Violette LeDrunc said:
So it is a belief that has no definition, no purpose and no function? Then I really can't figure out what that belief is and I don't understand what the point of believing in something that has no use is.
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Do you say the same things about colors (everyone sees colors a bit differently), tastes and smells, abstract concepts such as love, utopia, good and evil, etc?

But why do you consider that a "patriotic" ideal, rather than just an ethical one? It isn't any kind of culturally/nationally unique view. It is a rather widespread, commonplace one. I am trying to understand why you associate that ethical position with your country.
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Considering how many countries do not subscribe to the notion of free speech (and even how it is treated in countries that do subscribe to it), I have to disagree with you...

Look up the ACLU and see what kinds of cases they take on in the US. Doesn't Australia have something similar?
 

DeletedUser

i feal like getting this thread removed to, because yet again , Oisinallen and Darknoon are about to get me more infractions by pissing me off
 

DeletedUser8950

Romelis said:
the few the brave the stupid - the marines !
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LOL. That's sig worthy:nowink:
And thealex...it doesn't take much self-restraint to not swear in huge letters because you disagree with someone's opinion.
 

DeletedUser8950

Alex, I see ya patriotic. Maybe instead of serving in the army and killing others, you could help the families of those who die in war, or poor people in America? You don't have to kill or die to serve your country
 

DeletedUser

Look up the big red one's Qoute / Moto.

and im going to join the Marines not the army, mainly because I have had atleast 6 faimily members in nearly every war
 

DeletedUser

A big part of the USMC is discipline. If you can't restrain yourself, you don't have it.
 
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DeletedUser

funny you say that darknoon because tthe armed forces DOES do humanitarian aid
 

DeletedUser8950

@Alex(just to be clear)*Shakes head* That's doesn't mean you have to be. Even if it influences your choice, you can't make a decision just because your friends/family do it...
Oh and Lorgos I know that, but you don't need to serve in the army to help your country and "do" humanitarian aid.
 

DeletedUser

Elmyr said:
A big part of the USMC is discipline. If you can't retrain yourself, you don't have it.
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I'ts also about not giveing up, knowing when to give up , and support for you'r country, trust me, i have Discipline
 

DeletedUser

thealex90 said:
I'ts also about not giveing up, knowing when to give up , and support for you'r country, trust me, i have Discipline
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I think there's more to it than that. You not only need discipline, but also the ability to accept responsiblity for your own actions. Saying that 2 other people are making you post things that will get you infractions shows that you have quite a way to go before you have either. That's not saying you won't be ready when the time comes, but it might be something for you to think about and maybe work on some.
 

DeletedUser

Adelei Niska said:
Do you say the same things about colors (everyone sees colors a bit differently), tastes and smells, abstract concepts such as love, utopia, good and evil, etc?
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You said it was a belief. Sight, taste and smell are senses not beliefs so I don't see the relevance. As for the other abstract concepts are you saying that they have no purpose? Are you saying you cannot define them for yourself? These are things which centuries of thought has been applied to, with varying understandings and hypotheses resulting.

It seems obvious to me that you cannot believe in something which you do not even have a basic conception of. Belief requires thought and opinion. I am not arguing with you. I am simply trying to understand what your actual belief is.

Considering how many countries do not subscribe to the notion of free speech (and even how it is treated in countries that do subscribe to it), I have to disagree with you...

Look up the ACLU and see what kinds of cases they take on in the US. Doesn't Australia have something similar?
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I said it was widespread, not that it was universal. You raising the issue of Australia simply highlights my point that this isn't any kind of national trait unique to your countrymen which means, again, that it makes no sense to me that you see it as a patriotic stance rather than just an ethical one.
 

DeletedUser8950

thealex, if you've got nothing of value to add but insults don't post
 

DeletedUser

Violette LeDrunc said:
You said it was a belief. Sight, taste and smell are senses not beliefs so I don't see the relevance.
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You don't? The relevance is that they are preceived differently based on who you talk to. The same with the ideals that make up what is patriotic, what is "good", etc, etc, etc.

As for the other abstract concepts are you saying that they have no purpose? Are you saying you cannot define them for yourself? These are things which centuries of thought has been applied to, with varying understandings and hypotheses resulting.
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I never said that I couldn't define patriotism for myself, either. I said that my defining it was irrelevant. Just as my giving my specific stances on what is moral and what is not would be irrelevant to a discussion on what IS morality, in and of itself.

It seems obvious to me that you cannot believe in something which you do not even have a basic conception of. Belief requires thought and opinion. I am not arguing with you. I am simply trying to understand what your actual belief is.
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Please, define some of those abstract concepts that I just set out for you...

I said it was widespread, not that it was universal. You raising the issue of Australia simply highlights my point that this isn't any kind of national trait unique to your countrymen which means, again, that it makes no sense to me that you see it as a patriotic stance rather than just an ethical one.
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Er...there are considerable differences between how free speech is even among countries that value free speech. You seem to have glossed over that fact.

You might find this interesting... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7134918.stm

And, here is a link to the ACLU for you...
http://www.aclu.org/

Amnesty International is also a good site...
http://www.amnesty.org/
 
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