Patrioticism

[DeletedUser]

 

[DeletedUser]

For Americans:
A Welshman settled in America before Columbus and America took it's name from a welshmen.

Wow, Welsh revisionist history. America was named for Amerigo Vespucci. This is the first I've heard anyone claim it was named for someone else.

 

[nashy19]

Wow, Welsh revisionist history. America was named for Amerigo Vespucci. This is the first I've heard anyone claim it was named for someone else.

Take a look at Richard Amerik

 

[DeletedUser]

Take a look at Richard Amerik

Hudd proposed that the word "America" was originally applied to a destination across the western ocean, possibly an island or a fishing station in Newfoundland. This would have been before the existence of a continent on the other side of the Atlantic was known to Europeans. However, no maps bearing this name or documents indicating a location of this supposed village are known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Amerik

 

[DeletedUser8950]

America was the first country to nuke two cities thus killing hundreds of thousands, and cursing generations.

Damn this "You must spread some reputation around thing" is annoying me lol
Not patriotic in any way don't plan to be. Don't dislike England, just don't like it either

 

[nashy19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Amerik

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John Cabot, father of later more-famed explorer Sebastian Cabot, was the English name of the Italian navigator whose voyages in 1497 and 1498 laid the groundwork for the later British claim to Canada. He moved to London in 1484 and was authorized by King Henry VII to search for unknown lands to the West. On his little ship Matthew, Cabot reached Labrador and mapped the North American coastline from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland. As the chief customs official in Bristol, Richard Amerik could well have had his name attached to these maps; so the newly discovered continent, in England at least, became known as "Amerik's Land." We have to remember that Vespucci's voyages did not lead to the exploration or mapping of North America, maps of which were mainly British.

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From http://britannia.com/

 

[DeletedUser]

The thread starter can hopefully tell a non-native speaker the difference between Patrioticism (which I never heard of) and Patriotism (which I happen to know).

 

[nashy19]

pat-riot-icism
Do you need in syllables?

Pat - A person who looks like both a man and a woman

Obviously it's a riot of transvestites that have really let themselves go, a riot for their country I presume.

ic - Integrated Circuit
ism - Incorporated Society of Musicians

Integrated circuit of Musicians ^^

pat-riot-icism = Transvestites fighting Integrated Circuit of Musicians

Google works!

 

[DeletedUser]

Pat (assuming I recognize the reference) was not a Transvestite rather Gender Ambiguous.

 

[DeletedUser]

How I view TRUE Patriotism

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.” -- Mark Twain

"'My country, right or wrong’ is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying ‘My mother, drunk or sober.'" -- Gilbert K. Chesterton

Niska, those two quotes seem contradictory to me. One says supporting your country all the time, the other says not to support your country all the time.

So I want to know how you define your "country" as opposed to your nation. What are the geographical boundaries? What is the culture? Who are it's citizens? If these things are identical to the political boundaries of your nation, what is the difference?

And doesn't patriotism (even the version not synonymous with nationalism) require some kind of unity, shared values/ shared culture etc to which you can be loyal? What are those values? Any answer that could be given can only echo national myths. Any answer that can be given will exclude people from the definition, people who are part of your "country".

I genuinely fail to see the distinction between patriotism and nationalism. It is just that one is sneakier in its exclusion.

 

[DeletedUser]

Niska, those two quotes seem contradictory to me. One says supporting your country all the time, the other says not to support your country all the time.

So I want to know how you define your "country" as opposed to your nation. What are the geographical boundaries? What is the culture? Who are it's citizens? If these things are identical to the political boundaries of your nation, what is the difference?

We have different authors from different generations. Frankly, I'm not interested in a discussion of semantics. I find discussions of semantics generally to be pretty boring. Semantics aside, I think the meaning and intention of those quotes are extremely clear.

And doesn't patriotism (even the version not synonymous with nationalism) require some kind of unity, shared values/ shared culture etc to which you can be loyal? What are those values? Any answer that could be given can only echo national myths. Any answer that can be given will exclude people from the definition, people who are part of your "country".

I genuinely fail to see the distinction between patriotism and nationalism. It is just that one is sneakier in its exclusion.

I disagree. I think there is a pretty clear distinction between loving one's country and thinking that your country can do no wrong.

I think there is a pretty clear distinction between the person who is the first to criticize their country because they want their country to live up to the ideal of what their country SHOULD BE, rather than blindly defending what it IS.

 

[DeletedUser]

Wales in a small place yet Welsh people seem to do pretty much everything.

For Oisin:
Saint Patrick was not Irish (you should know where he came from)

If St. Patrick was actually from Ireland, he wouldn't have become a saint, and wouldn't have done anything notable. We made him what he is today! Not you!

Wow, Welsh revisionist history. America was named for Amerigo Vespucci. This is the first I've heard anyone claim it was named for someone else.

It's sad that you don't get QI over there. It's a British show which disproves common ignorances. Nashy is right.

Amerigo Vespucci was an "obvious but wrong" answer to the question: who is America named after?

Prince Madoc was an 11th century Welsh prince who (probably) discovered America as well. However, he was too late for St. Brendan - a 6th century Munsterian Irishman who was the first European in America.

 

[DeletedUser]

We have different authors from different generations. Frankly, I'm not interested in a discussion of semantics. I find discussions of semantics generally to be pretty boring. Semantics aside, I think the meaning and intention of those quotes are extremely clear.

They might be clear about how you should interact with a democratic government. they are certainly not clear about what patriotism is or what a country is. That is not semantics. It is the very essence of what is being discussed here.

I disagree. I think there is a pretty clear distinction between loving one's country and thinking that your country can do no wrong.

But what exactly is it that you love? This is a genuine question, not me picking at you. If what you love cannot be defined, does it even exist? And if it is a only a myth, how can it be trusted?

And what is the point of this "patriotism"? What is its purpose and its function?

I think there is a pretty clear distinction between the person who is the first to criticize their country because they want their country to live up to the ideal of what their country SHOULD BE, rather than blindly defending what it IS.

And tis is where I find "patriotism" suspect. It is all very well and good to have a belief about what your nation "should be", and in a democratic nation all that requires of you is that you vote according to your judgement. There is no love or loyalty required to do that. So what do you love and what are you loyal to? And what of all those individuals in your nation who do not fit that ideal or share that ideal or want that ideal?

You can reject my questions again if you like, but as I said, I am asking them genuinely. You might have an answer. If you do not answer them, I will continue to see patriotism as a language of exclusion, and your refusal will in some part confirm that opinion. If "patriotism" is not something that can be reasonably questioned, and if it is something that cannot be defined, it is something to be concerned about.

 

[nashy19]

If St. Patrick was actually from Ireland, he wouldn't have become a saint, and wouldn't have done anything notable. We made him what he is today! Not you!

Despite that most people seem to agree he was born in "Bannaventa Berniae"

We made him what he is today! Not you!

And as far as I know the birthplace of a person does not change no matter how much others glorify them. :dry:

I can't even find a biased article from the other viewpoint

 

[DeletedUser]

pat-riot-icism = Gender ambiguous fighting Integrated Circuit of Musicians

So the thread starter is mad now as this thread has gone off-topic?
Or is he a dyslexicist?

 

[nashy19]

So the thread starter is mad now as this thread has gone off-topic?

The thread writer is filled with glee!
The fact that an off topic thread has indeed gone off topic brings joy to all.

Praise the onion.

 

[DeletedUser]

Amerigo Vespucci was an "obvious but wrong" answer to the question: who is America named after?

You say that like it's an absolute fact, and there are very few absolute facts in history. One television program is not a definitive source.

 

[DeletedUser]

They might be clear about how you should interact with a democratic government. they are certainly not clear about what patriotism is or what a country is. That is not semantics. It is the very essence of what is being discussed here.

Where do you get that there has to be one definition? Obviously, what I would consider an ideal country is not the same as what my fellow country-man would consider to be an ideal country...

If what you love cannot be defined, does it even exist?

I cannot define it for Mark Twain or Gilbert K. Chesterton... I could only define it for myself. Again, it seems to me that what you are asking is fairly irrelevant to the point that I'm making. There is no one set definition...

And if it is a only a myth, how can it be trusted?

Who said anything about "trusting" my definition? My definition isn't even set for myself. I have certainly changed my mind about what would make up an ideal country over the years...

And what is the point of this "patriotism"? What is its purpose and its function?

What is the purpose and function of the flavor of strawberries vs. the flavor of chocolate? I don't see that patriotism necessarily needs a purpose or function. It is a definition of a state of mind and belief.

And tis is where I find "patriotism" suspect. It is all very well and good to have a belief about what your nation "should be", and in a democratic nation all that requires of you is that you vote according to your judgement. There is no love or loyalty required to do that.

Voting, I would argue, in and of itself, is a patriotic act. It is having belief enough in the system that it is worth your time to vote. I would agree that it is about the least you can do, but it is something.

Oh, and most democratic nations don't even require that you vote, either according to your judgement or otherwise.

So what do you love and what are you loyal to? And what of all those individuals in your nation who do not fit that ideal or share that ideal or want that ideal?

Fine...I'll share one of my ideals. One is that I think all people should have a voice, no matter how inane their opinion is... IMO, if you believe that those that disagree with you should shut up, that isn't a very patriotic belief as far as the US goes.

I'll share another, too. Even if you have what I believe to be an unpatriotic belief, there are ways to change the US to make that belief the norm. And, everyone in the US has the ability to work towards that change, if they so desire.

You can reject my questions again if you like, but as I said, I am asking them genuinely. You might have an answer.

Saying that the question is irrelevant is an answer... Not one that you like...but it's an answer.

If you do not answer them, I will continue to see patriotism as a language of exclusion, and your refusal will in some part confirm that opinion.

Go for it. Makes no difference to me. But, we will continue to disagree.

If "patriotism" is not something that can be reasonably questioned, and if it is something that cannot be defined, it is something to be concerned about.

Don't lose any sleep over it. BTW, I don't understand many concepts well enough to question or define them properly...but I'm not overly concerned about them, either.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think of the difference between patriotism and nationalism to be similar to parenthood. Patriots are the parents who say their kids are the greatest, but recognize their faults (they aren't really the smartest, most beautiful and best behaved kids in the world) and nationalists are the parents who say their kids are the greatest and refuse to believe they'd ever do anything wrong.

 

[DeletedUser]

to take your metaphor a bit farther Nationalists are more like the Sports parents who justify any action at all (including violence against authority figures on their childrens' behalf) as not only justified but necessary. Nationalism is a dangerous disease that led us into both world wars (in the Balkans, Germany, Japan) the Serb-Croat conflict in the 90's (again the Balkans [do we see a trend here?], and the refusal to accept peaceful reconciliation (in Israel/Palestine and Northern Ireland). Confusion arises because Nationalists believe (or at least espouse the belief) that they are patriots and don't realize how much harm their actions bring to what they profess love for.