Heaven or Hell

[DeletedUser]

Yeah? And so? Does that mean it's not true? Does that mean we should qualify "there is no afterlife" with "that we are aware of" because YOU would "give up" and feel "it's all so meaningless"?

What is true, is true. What you feel about it is completely meaningless...

Technically everything is meaningless, right?

I'm going to lay it down for you clearly here because I know this might be a little tricky for you but I was *gasp* discussing my feelings on the issue. You know, discussion, that thing you come to forums to do?

So you have an inability to understand what nothingness is... First, like you have an ability to understand what perfection is? In the case of heaven, it is supposed to be perfectly wonderful, in the case of hell, perfectly awful.

No, and no. I never stated that I knew what perfection is.

And, what you "want to come to terms with" is irrelevant. Reality doesn't care what you'd "rather", either.

Right and reality didn't sign up for an account at The West Forums to have a discussion, now did it? Judging by your attitude, maybe you should make like reality and...

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm going to lay it down for you clearly here because I know this might be a little tricky for you but I was *gasp* discussing my feelings on the issue. You know, discussion, that thing you come to forums to do?

As I said...

This is the old, "I don't like it so it must not be true", argument...

 

[DeletedUser]

As I said...

I never said it wasn't true!

Edit: Let me put it to you this way, in the beginning I said that we truly don't know. What I understand now (explained to me by Hellstromm and further substantiated by a bit of research) is that we have an idea of what's going on and a decent idea of what does happen after death. All I'm trying to say is that it's difficult for me to grasp that there could be nothingness and you're doing this hilariously non-sequitur thing of twirling your moustache, running across the room knocking over tables and chairs just to get in my face and yell WRONG!

 

[DeletedUser]

I never said it wasn't true! Christ you're dense.

Edit: Let me put it to you this way, in the beginning I said that we truly don't know. What I understand now (explained to me by Hellstromm and further substantiated by a bit of research) is that we have an idea of what's going on and a decent idea of what does happen after death. All I'm trying to say is that it's difficult for me to grasp that there could be nothingness and you're doing this hilariously non-sequitur thing of twirling your moustache, running across the room knocking over tables and chairs just to get in my face and yell WRONG!

Look, you responded to a post talking about what happens when the body breaks down and talking about the fact that there is no reason to put "that we are aware of" at the end of a statement such as "there is no afterlife". You responded to that post yammering on about what you'd rather, what you can understand, and what is disturbing to you.

My response was that what you can understand and your feelings are completely irrelevant...which they are. Many, many, many people in society CHOOSE to believe in something because it is more comforting to them, despite the facts. If that would work, why wouldn't we all CHOOSE to be rich, healthy, walking along a sandy beach with a supermodel (presumably with a brain)?

 

[DeletedUser]

Look, you responded to a post talking about what happens when the body breaks down and talking about the fact that there is no reason to put "that we are aware of" at the end of a statement such as "there is no afterlife". You responded to that post yammering on about what you'd rather, what you can understand, and what is disturbing to you.

My response was that what you can understand and your feelings are completely irrelevant...which they are. Many, many, many people in society CHOOSE to believe in something because it is more comforting to them, despite the facts. If that would work, why wouldn't we all CHOOSE to be rich, healthy, walking along a sandy beach with a supermodel (presumably with a brain)?

Life is not always a choice, sometimes people are just BORN the way they are, like homosexuals, they are BORN gay or lesbian because they are not naturally attracted to the opposite sex, but this is not always the case, sometimes they actually do CHOOSE.

There are many examples of choice, I'll start with one similar to yours.
being Rich, and walking on a beach with a supermodel that has a brain.

Sure, alot of money and a hot supermodel, yay... O'RLLY?

I may CHOOSE not to be rich and walking on a beach with a supermodel (yes, presumably with a brain). Why? What will money do for you in the end? Will it truly give you a satisfied mind? Money can't buy back your youth when you are old, it can't bring back a friend when your lonely, or a love thats grown cold?

What do you do, when you'r age is at full, your model's beauty has expired, and the sunburns cause you a cancerous Demise? Wouldn't you wish for pleasure and happiness, actual true friends, and a true love who isn't after your money? I certainly would. I would rather pass with a satisfied mind than die a cold, shriveled and greedy old man.

 

[DeletedUser]

David, I'm not sure which smilie best sums up my response.

There is "huh" -

There is "blink" -

And, the old standby of "rolleyes" -

 

[DeletedUser]

My response was that what you can understand and your feelings are completely irrelevant...which they are.

Once again, this leads back to the original concept of discussion. You're reading too much into what I said. My entire post could have been summarized with "Wow, that's too much for me to completely comprehend all at once."

Maybe then you wouldn't be furiously striding across the room to yell WRONG in my face. HEAVEN FORBID I lay down some thoughts and feelings on the subject. Next time I post I'll make sure that I remember I'm not actually here for discussion, but rather... wait, what was it we're here for again?

 

[DeletedUser]

Once again, this leads back to the original concept of discussion. You're reading too much into what I said. My entire post could have been summarized with "Wow, that's too much for me to completely comprehend all at once."

Maybe then you wouldn't be furiously striding across the room to yell WRONG in my face. HEAVEN FORBID I lay down some thoughts and feelings on the subject. Next time I post I'll make sure that I remember I'm not actually here for discussion, but rather... wait, what was it we're here for again?

So, let me get this straight...

Hellstromm talks about what happens when the body breaks down and reinforces the idea that we do not need to include "that we're aware of" after statements such as "there is no afterlife".

You respond with a post of what you would "rather" believe, what you don't "understand" and how "disturbing" there being no afterlife is.

I respond that what you feel and understand is irrelevant as far as reality is concerned.

Now, you are complaining that you can say what you want in a discussion and that expressing your feelings is just part of that discussion.

Tell me, is my pointing out that what you feel and what you understand is irrelevant with regards to the reality of what is, part of a discussion? You're wonderfully self-contradictory.

 

[DeletedUser]

You respond with a post of what you would "rather" believe, what you don't "understand" and how "disturbing" there being no afterlife is.

Saying "rather believe" was a poor choice of words on my part which I'm sure you're going to cling to for dear life, but the rest is accurate so far.

I respond that what you feel and understand is irrelevant as far as reality is concerned.

This entire conversation, our posts, this entire forum, the game that the forum is based on, and hell, computers in general are irrelevent as far as your perception of reality is concerned, it seems.

Now, you are complaining that you can say what you want in a discussion and that expressing your feelings is just part of that discussion.

You're being silly here. I'm not complaining that I can say whatever I want, I'm only saying I added my feelings as a comment to Hellstromm's post. You're sitting here saying that my comment was meaningless, and I'm merely saying that I was only continuing to post what was on my mind, which happens to be the way I carry on a natural conversation.

Tell me, is my pointing out that what you feel and what you understand is irrelevant with regards to the reality of what is, part of a discussion? You're wonderfully self-contradictory.

Do you ever get tired of being this pretentious? My comments only serve to further a conversation, your comments serve to pretty much end the conversation. I could storm into anyone's conversations and tell them that their thoughts, feelings, and opinions on the situation is useless and irrelevent, but what purpose would that serve?

 

[DeletedUser]

This entire conversation, our posts, this entire forum, the game that the forum is based on, and hell, computers in general are irrelevent as far as your perception of reality is concerned, it seems.

Wrong. Thoughts and feelings come into play in lots of different areas. When discussing what IS, the thoughts and feelings of what you would RATHER IT BE, are irrelevant, however. The same goes for what one would find "disturbing" or what one "understands".

It's like having a discussion on the mechanics of how a computer works and someone chiming in, "well, I'd rather that there were little green men computing the values behind the screen" or "it's disturbing to think that there aren't little green men inside a computer doing all the work" or "I can't understand all of the inner workings of a computer, but I can understand the concept of little green men behind the mechanics of how a computer works".

You want to insert your thoughts and feelings in such a way into that kind of a conversation, yes...so sorry, you are going to be met with a response like mine. Too bad.

You're being silly here. I'm not complaining that I can say whatever I want, I'm only saying I added my feelings as a comment to Hellstromm's post. You're sitting here saying that my comment was meaningless, and I'm merely saying that I was only continuing to post what was on my mind, which happens to be the way I carry on a natural conversation.

And I'm pointing out what you said was irrelevant. And you are complaining about the fact that I pointed out what you said was irrelevant...

I'm discussing what you said. You don't like it. Too bad. This is a discussion. People are going to say things that you don't like. DEAL WITH IT.

My comments only serve to further a conversation, your comments serve to pretty much end the conversation.

Really? My comments didn't generate any conversation... Interesting...:laugh:

I could storm into anyone's conversations and tell them that their thoughts, feelings, and opinions on the situation is useless and irrelevent, but what purpose would that serve?

See above. Are you really going to continue in this silly line of thought? Be my guest...but it's really easy to dismiss.

 

[DeletedUser]

Mind if I chime in?

I think, at this stage of the discussions, Divest has indicated a willingness to understand what is unpalatable, and previously not considered. His gut reaction is to resist, which is understandable in the context of everyone wanting to feel they have a greater purpose, but he has since indicated that the ugly reality may indeed be an ugly reality, however unpalatable. Adelei, considering this, I think you can lay off him.

And David, I don't want to return to the original question, because it's a stupid question which has been thoroughly addressed 6+ pages ago. We're discussing something a bit more interesting, which is still very much topical. And since the original post was made in the Debate/Discussion forum, we're not merely lingering on the question, but going beyond it and having a debate/discussion.

 

[DeletedUser]

Adelei, considering this, I think you can lay off him.

Thanks for your opinion. Sorry, but I see no reason to. He has been belligerent towards me and I have met him with reason and logic. I have enjoyed tearing his extremely weak arguments to shreds. And if he wants continue, I shall as well. It takes two to tango. If he backs off, however, I'm not going to needle him.

EDIT: I completely agree that a willingness to consider something to be true which one finds "ugly and unpalatable", is a step forward. I, too, will add my props for that, at least.

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually, isn't that Faith?

There's a functional difference?

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
Mark Twain (not exact but close enough on the wording)


NEVER ARGUE WITH A FOOL

It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.

He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
He’s a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.

In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!

It’s better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.

It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.

I'm betting that you're a Christian. Tell me, what do you think of this passage from the Bible?

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."

 

[DeletedUser]

There's a functional difference?

I'm betting that you're a Christian. Tell me, what do you think of this passage from the Bible?

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."

It's clearly a methapor/parabell/something that actually means the complete opposite of what it says.

Problem solved. The bible is safe once again.

 

[DeletedUser]

Wrong. Thoughts and feelings come into play in lots of different areas. When discussing what IS, the thoughts and feelings of what you would RATHER IT BE, are irrelevant, however. The same goes for what one would find "disturbing" or what one "understands".

I was merely chiming in my thoughts on what it was. You see discussion takes many different roads, and this happened to take that road.

And good to see that my original assessment is true: I stated that I had phrased that particular post badly, and you come in and hold onto that for dear life because now you realize, that's really all you have me on -- a badly worded post that you're clinging onto because of some hilarious vendetta you've got against me because I was mean to you in other threads.

As you admitted, you're getting pleasure out of this whole debacle of convincing yourself you've got something substantial on me -- I'm tired of telling you that you really don't.

It's like having a discussion on the mechanics of how a computer works and someone chiming in, "well, I'd rather that there were little green men computing the values behind the screen" or "it's disturbing to think that there aren't little green men inside a computer doing all the work" or "I can't understand all of the inner workings of a computer, but I can understand the concept of little green men behind the mechanics of how a computer works".

Again, you're running with the convenience that you caught me on a badly worded post which I admitted. I mean, feel free to get back at me -- as you said, I've been pretty mean in my way of dismissing many of your silly opinions and thoughts in other threads, so why not take the time to get back at me now?

You want to insert your thoughts and feelings in such a way into that kind of a conversation, yes...so sorry, you are going to be met with a response like mine. Too bad.

The whole premise of this thread was based on thoughts and feelings, not the inner workings of a computer as you so state. My thoughts and feelings were in context of the discussion.

People are going to say things that you don't like. DEAL WITH IT.

Which of course is your reason for this whole vendetta, isn't it?

Really? My comments didn't generate any conversation... Interesting...:laugh:

You're being pretentious again. It didn't generate conversation on the topic, but sure, it did generate a conversation, so to speak.

See above. Are you really going to continue in this silly line of thought? Be my guest...but it's really easy to dismiss.

I don't have anything better to do and apparently neither do you, so let's see who's more stubborn, shall we?

 

[DeletedUser]

This is hilarious. Apparently, I have a vendetta, now... Divest, I can see that you think a lot of yourself and your opinions, but I can tell you quite honestly, you nor your opinions would never mean enough to create a vendetta over...

But, it looks like your last post is your way of trying to save face. You are no longer arguing the points, but claiming it was just a poorly phrased post. So be it. You are excused.

 

[DeletedUser]

What happened to the whole I'LL KEEP GOING IF HE DOES. I stated that it was a poorly phrased post a while ago -- my point was that it had an undertone that you were completely missing in your whole HAHA GOT'IM! mission.

Whatever woman, your issues are your issues.

 

[DeletedUser]

What happened to the whole I'LL KEEP GOING IF HE DOES. I stated that it was a poorly phrased post a while ago -- my point was that it had an undertone that you were completely missing in your whole HAHA GOT'IM! mission.

Whatever woman, your issues are your issues.

You've changed your argument about 5 times now.

Let's see...
1. You were "discussing your feelings on the issue".
2. You were "discussing" and that's what the forums are for, discussion.
3. It's difficult to grasp that there is nothing.
4. It's difficult to grasp that there is nothing all at once.
5. It was a poor choice of words.
6. All discussion of feelings is irrelevant if your blather about them is.
7. You're just spouting "natural conversation".
8. My comments don't serve to further conversation whereas yours do.
9. I have a vendetta...

Eh? I guess that's nine.

But, be my guest. I can continue this... Arguing with you is like playing whack-a-mole...and just as easy.

BTW, I am not a woman. Please don't address me so especially if you are trying to make some sort of derogatory remark based on gender.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well I was arguing different points, that shoudn't be too difficult of a concept. Unlike you, I tend to believe that having your head up your... seat cushion isn't the only way to look at things.

Does that make sense to you now, woman?

 

[DeletedUser]

Well I was arguing different points, that shoudn't be too difficult of a concept. Unlike you, I tend to believe that having your head up your... seat cushion isn't the only way to look at things.

Does that make sense to you now, woman?

That's all you got left, huh...

You're excused.