DeletedUser
goverment job is to keep the stability of the nation,have better living conditions of its citizens(education,health care,etc).
DeletedUser
Divest,
I don't think the government is evil. I think that politicians are people, who have learned that the best way to keep their job is to cater to people who will vote for them.
I don't trust that they won't do the same thing with health care. Provide it based on race and age prejudices. "We get more votes from the White Male segment of the population, so we'll give them a bigger budget for heart medications and research" or "Those rich white guys never vote for us, let's restrict the government funded healthcare to people who make less than 100k a year"
I also believe that they are FAR underestimating how much it will cost. And wonder what cuts are going to be required if it gets passed.
DeletedUser
They can always start making churches pay taxes. That would be a nice boon to our economy.
DeletedUser
We have a current system that is prejudiced in poor people in much the same way that you fear a government system would be prejudiced against rich people. Let's just assume that your fears are true and that the new system will somehow exclude rich people from getting the care they need.
Tell me, who would have the resources to recieve good care, anyway...the rich excluded by a government run system or the poor excluded from our current system?
DeletedUser8950
Lol, gotta pay to reach inner peace. After all, you're not a real believer if you won't pay to pray to your god
Pay to pray system-if I'm ever a ruthless dictator I gotta remember that
DeletedUser
So, it's universal, except for the people we say don't deserve it?
DeletedUser
Poor people don't deserve health care?
BTW, I was just supposing that your fears were actually true. I don't believe them, anyway...but supposing they were, I think you have no argument.
DeletedUser13682
I know it's probably dead, but here is a Canadian on Canadian and American government run health care.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdARfegZDns&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdARfegZDns&feature=channel
DeletedUser
Was that, somehow, supposed to add substance to this debate?
DeletedUser13682
Supposed to. Just because it's entertaining, doesn't mean it's irrelevant.
DeletedUser
It wasn't even entertaining...
DeletedUser
one, more relavent would be this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&feature=PlayList&p=D4D67C0C404DCFCC&index=2
DeletedUser
His comments are irrelevant because:
1. he really doesn't know what he's talking about (and yes, i bothered to watch both videos),
2. he is not comparing present medical care in the U.S. to that of Canada (stated, the wait time is hours in the U.S. as well).
3. he doesn't even know what the health care plans are, for if he did, he would get off the high horse of, "government run" healthcare. It's already been stated, more times than not, the plan will not replace existing healthcare services, it will provide healthcare services to those who don't have healthcare, or cannot afford it.
4. The plan (or, more aptly, the plans, since there are five plans being reviewed) is "not" government run healthcare.
And the list goes on. Suffice it to say, volume is a poor substitute for knowledge. This guy yelling his thoughts, as those in city halls, does not know what he's talking about. He's grabbing talking points, playing bait and switch, and performing other fallacious arguments.
Look folks, if you don't have a voice of your own, an ability to discuss this issue with your own thoughts and insights, don't bother with utube links. I would far prefer dialogue over link spam.
DeletedUser
check this out !!!
Canadian Health Care System Is Imploding
This comes via the head honcho over at the Canadian Medical Association, in other words… the top doc. The Canadian Press has the details…
Canadian Health Care System Is Imploding
This comes via the head honcho over at the Canadian Medical Association, in other words… the top doc. The Canadian Press has the details…
The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country’s health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.
Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country – who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting – recognize that changes must be made.
“We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize,” Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
“We know that there must be change,” she said. “We’re all running flat out, we’re all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands.”
The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there’s a critical need to make Canada’s health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.
His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that “a health-care revolution has passed us by,” that it’s possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and “that competition should be welcomed, not feared.”
In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.
This is yet another prominent voice within the Canadian health care system that is suggesting that the current government run system is not sustainable and the private competition should be an option. Quite interesting to watch a Canadian debate on health care, while America moves in a direction that would take us closer to what our neighbors up north are suffering through. Obama says that a Canadian style system would not work for America, and he can argue the silly policy notions that in his mind may differentiate the two systems, but ultimately it’s about government control. That in itself makes the Canadian system and a potential Obama system virtually the same animal!Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country – who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting – recognize that changes must be made.
“We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize,” Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
“We know that there must be change,” she said. “We’re all running flat out, we’re all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands.”
The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there’s a critical need to make Canada’s health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.
His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that “a health-care revolution has passed us by,” that it’s possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and “that competition should be welcomed, not feared.”
In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.
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DeletedUser
Wow, you actually believe the crap your spouting?
Jim, Canada's system won't work for the U.S., nor is it what is being proposed in any of the 5 plans presently being amended in the House and Senate. It is, however, working relatively well, despite discussions about how it could, and/or should, be done better.
What I find amusing is that there is no mention of, nor discussion about very successful universal health care systems in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Germany, etc and so on. In fact, every single nation with a greater population life span and lower child mortality rate, than the U.S., has universal health care. That, in and of itself, demonstrates the present system in the U.S. is horribly flawed.
What I would like to close with is, Canada is presently undergoing efforts to change their present medical healthcare system to something resembling what is presently being discussed in the U.S. House & Senate because Canada's present system imposes financial disincentives to private medical care, which is a striking contrast to almost every other universal health care system, and thus the reason U.S. health insurance corporations are trying to keep the debate focused on Canada, and not other countries.
Jim, Canada's system won't work for the U.S., nor is it what is being proposed in any of the 5 plans presently being amended in the House and Senate. It is, however, working relatively well, despite discussions about how it could, and/or should, be done better.
What I find amusing is that there is no mention of, nor discussion about very successful universal health care systems in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Germany, etc and so on. In fact, every single nation with a greater population life span and lower child mortality rate, than the U.S., has universal health care. That, in and of itself, demonstrates the present system in the U.S. is horribly flawed.
What I would like to close with is, Canada is presently undergoing efforts to change their present medical healthcare system to something resembling what is presently being discussed in the U.S. House & Senate because Canada's present system imposes financial disincentives to private medical care, which is a striking contrast to almost every other universal health care system, and thus the reason U.S. health insurance corporations are trying to keep the debate focused on Canada, and not other countries.
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DeletedUser
This is from the news , not my writing, I was just reporting it as I saw and heard it.
DeletedUser
Here is some good information on health care reform. Also note the link to the lies being told on both sides of the isle about the proposals being discussed.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/aug/13/health-care-reform-simple-explanation/
It was interesting to note that although lies are being told on both sides, the greatest number of lies and the most ridiculous lies, are being told by the right.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/aug/13/health-care-reform-simple-explanation/
It was interesting to note that although lies are being told on both sides, the greatest number of lies and the most ridiculous lies, are being told by the right.
DeletedUser
Something as important as health, I believe should not be profit driven.
I live in the UK, and as many people before in this thread have mentioned: We have the NHS. While it may not be the best system, with finance issues (Due to it being very old) and issues with the "post code lottery" I think it still works effectively. I worked in a pharmacy and a variety of patients came in for an assortment of drugs, and all kinds of prices on them (privately) ranging from £100s to £0.10p. That's gotta prove something...
I live in the UK, and as many people before in this thread have mentioned: We have the NHS. While it may not be the best system, with finance issues (Due to it being very old) and issues with the "post code lottery" I think it still works effectively. I worked in a pharmacy and a variety of patients came in for an assortment of drugs, and all kinds of prices on them (privately) ranging from £100s to £0.10p. That's gotta prove something...
DeletedUser
Viva la NHS, you guys don't know what you're missing.
Its by no means perfect, as GEM said, its underfunded... and the role of Private Finance Initiative (P.F.I) contracts is lamentable, but the system for 99% of people works, and you can pay for private cover too if you want to.
Honestly its baffling why you don't adopt our system...
Furthermore I used to work for N.I.C.E. the er 'death panel' to say its role is being misrepresented in the American Media is an understatement....
Its by no means perfect, as GEM said, its underfunded... and the role of Private Finance Initiative (P.F.I) contracts is lamentable, but the system for 99% of people works, and you can pay for private cover too if you want to.
Honestly its baffling why you don't adopt our system...
Furthermore I used to work for N.I.C.E. the er 'death panel' to say its role is being misrepresented in the American Media is an understatement....
DeletedUser
I can write literally pages on this. Conclusion: I think government should be involved, BUT only for preventive care and early diagnosis WITH rules that reward healthy life style and punish people who do not live responsibly. It is much better to prevent potential health issues and much cheaper than treating it after the fact. Sometimes, it involve gut wrenching decisions, how much longer can a patient live and at what cost.
Background: For the past 20 years, I have watched friends and family members who work in the health care industry or even health insurance industries in both USA and other countries (joy of inter-racial marriages, I get to learn other culture and countries as well as my cousins marry different ethnic groups)
I know friends from college, who, after working hard for quite a few years, gave up on practicing as a doctor. I also still have family members that are practicing medicine as doctor, nurses, in USA and other countries.
I also worked in the insurance industry and also have some exposure to the legal industry.
Ever since I heard my friends telling me heart breaking stories about how they want to give patients care and can't, some chose to quit, after medical school, some quit after residency, some, chose to join cooperatives, take pay cuts, in order to bypass some insurance hassle and treat patients closer to the way they want.
I thought the health insurance industry, lawyers are to blame until I started to gain exposure to those industries due to my work. There are a lot of blames to go around. Health insurance industry has their own problems. Let's just say one of the company I worked for dropped their health insurance policy because they were losing too much money, at least that's the reason I was told by the management when I was wondering why a good health plan, a good, "product", was discontinued.
Because I can write pages on medical malpractice, insurance industry and medical practicianer's problems and challenges, I want to point out to something some people may not be aware and I was not even really aware of it until one of my cousin started to work for NIH.
US government often dole out government funding for research, from basic science to medical, especially pharmaceutical research. Do you want to know who enjoy the fruits of that labor? Private entities, often corporations, can apply, get grant, and then apply for patent on those medication. This goes further, look up on Bayh-Dole Act in the 1980's. That's one source of some of USA's problems.
Medical cost keeps on going up, there are certainly enough waste, but if you look at some of the break downs, why do procedure and medication cost so much? Doctors and hospitals need to cover their cost + making a profit. I do know doctors who will treat patients only out of kindness, but at the same time, you cannot naively believe most of them will starve their own family to do it.
Bayh-Dole act allows private entities, including universities to get goverment funding for research, then apply for patent and enjoy the fruits of their labor. Theoretically, government retain the right o force licensing of the patent for public benefit. In reality, that is rarely exercised. I found one case, LED lighting, was forced by department of energy to allow public cheaper access to efficient lighting. I called NIH and some government agency as I was doing research on this matter and frankly, it was difficult to find cases where government actually exercise the right to force patent royalty licensing for the public benefit, eventhough government paid for the patent development, some, to close to all of the cost of that.
Pharmaceutical companies spend tons on marketing, those including ads run in the media, spam mail + visit to doctor's offices.
Have you ever been in a doctor's office, waiting for your appointment to be called and watch all those nicely dressed gentlemen and ladies from the pharmaceutical industries? Gee, guess who are paying for those perhaps un-necessary medication cost? Initially, it's the insurance, then ultimately, it's the patients, the public, who will pay the bill as insurance drops coverage, reduce coverage to cover the cost. Is it wrong though?
There are increased return to scale on preventive medical care, and you don't need much bureaucracy from the govenrment for that. Everyone just needs an unique ID, that keeps track of what flu shot, immunization, annual physical check ups, etc. have been done and encourage people to get them and reward them for keepign themselves in shape by providing reimbursement for expensive medical procedure later on and deny those reimbursement to people who don't live responsibly.
Food subsdies in USA is encouraging people to eat less healthy.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1917458,00.html?iid=tsmodule
You probably want to read that. All those antibiotics usage is really causing problems. I've worked with surgeon before, my boss was lamenting the problems caused by drug resistant bacteria. We have seen pharmaceutical rep visit in our office and my boss was especially interested in new anti-biotics to help him combat patient infection problems from drug resist bacteria after surgery.
Background: For the past 20 years, I have watched friends and family members who work in the health care industry or even health insurance industries in both USA and other countries (joy of inter-racial marriages, I get to learn other culture and countries as well as my cousins marry different ethnic groups)
I know friends from college, who, after working hard for quite a few years, gave up on practicing as a doctor. I also still have family members that are practicing medicine as doctor, nurses, in USA and other countries.
I also worked in the insurance industry and also have some exposure to the legal industry.
Ever since I heard my friends telling me heart breaking stories about how they want to give patients care and can't, some chose to quit, after medical school, some quit after residency, some, chose to join cooperatives, take pay cuts, in order to bypass some insurance hassle and treat patients closer to the way they want.
I thought the health insurance industry, lawyers are to blame until I started to gain exposure to those industries due to my work. There are a lot of blames to go around. Health insurance industry has their own problems. Let's just say one of the company I worked for dropped their health insurance policy because they were losing too much money, at least that's the reason I was told by the management when I was wondering why a good health plan, a good, "product", was discontinued.
Because I can write pages on medical malpractice, insurance industry and medical practicianer's problems and challenges, I want to point out to something some people may not be aware and I was not even really aware of it until one of my cousin started to work for NIH.
US government often dole out government funding for research, from basic science to medical, especially pharmaceutical research. Do you want to know who enjoy the fruits of that labor? Private entities, often corporations, can apply, get grant, and then apply for patent on those medication. This goes further, look up on Bayh-Dole Act in the 1980's. That's one source of some of USA's problems.
Medical cost keeps on going up, there are certainly enough waste, but if you look at some of the break downs, why do procedure and medication cost so much? Doctors and hospitals need to cover their cost + making a profit. I do know doctors who will treat patients only out of kindness, but at the same time, you cannot naively believe most of them will starve their own family to do it.
Bayh-Dole act allows private entities, including universities to get goverment funding for research, then apply for patent and enjoy the fruits of their labor. Theoretically, government retain the right o force licensing of the patent for public benefit. In reality, that is rarely exercised. I found one case, LED lighting, was forced by department of energy to allow public cheaper access to efficient lighting. I called NIH and some government agency as I was doing research on this matter and frankly, it was difficult to find cases where government actually exercise the right to force patent royalty licensing for the public benefit, eventhough government paid for the patent development, some, to close to all of the cost of that.
Pharmaceutical companies spend tons on marketing, those including ads run in the media, spam mail + visit to doctor's offices.
Have you ever been in a doctor's office, waiting for your appointment to be called and watch all those nicely dressed gentlemen and ladies from the pharmaceutical industries? Gee, guess who are paying for those perhaps un-necessary medication cost? Initially, it's the insurance, then ultimately, it's the patients, the public, who will pay the bill as insurance drops coverage, reduce coverage to cover the cost. Is it wrong though?
There are increased return to scale on preventive medical care, and you don't need much bureaucracy from the govenrment for that. Everyone just needs an unique ID, that keeps track of what flu shot, immunization, annual physical check ups, etc. have been done and encourage people to get them and reward them for keepign themselves in shape by providing reimbursement for expensive medical procedure later on and deny those reimbursement to people who don't live responsibly.
Food subsdies in USA is encouraging people to eat less healthy.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1917458,00.html?iid=tsmodule
You probably want to read that. All those antibiotics usage is really causing problems. I've worked with surgeon before, my boss was lamenting the problems caused by drug resistant bacteria. We have seen pharmaceutical rep visit in our office and my boss was especially interested in new anti-biotics to help him combat patient infection problems from drug resist bacteria after surgery.