Government Run Health Care

[DeletedUser]

Oh, I see what's coming. The commy/socialist thrown at me as if it's a dirty word.

To answer your question:
To a degree, yes.
I am a social-democrat, or close enoguh so it makes no diffrence.

Whereas you suport to each his own, and every man for himself?

Yeah, I support personal choice and personal responsibility.

I was just checking to see if my suspicions were correct.

I have no fundamental problem with Socialism, other than the fact that it ignores basic human lazyness.

If you create a system that eliminates the Rewards for hard work, and doesn't create a disincentive to laziness large portions of society will take the milquetoast.


When a Certified Nurse Practitioner gets the same pay as a Ob/GYN, why would any sane person spend 8 years of school, go through a fellowship, when they can make as much by taking a test?

Are you a Christian? Just wondering.

Nope.

 

[DeletedUser]

Betsy, how is your NHS with end of life issues, such as seniors who need treatments that would extend, or improve, their life, but would be expensive.

Things like Dialysis, or Cornea Repair, Hip Replacement.

I work with seniors. Expense is never an issue. The only criteria used for seniors is their ability to withstand the operation or the procedure. And their choice. Which is never overridden.

and doesn't the gov then step in and say you are (say 85) and do not need dialysis, then what???

Never. The "government" has no say in who receives what treatments.

I do remember a couple of years back a very controversial drug that came on the market. Controversial because it was prohibitively expensive and was used to extend the life of palliative patients by only a very few months. This particular drug was not covered by Health Care and if the patients wanted to have a few more months of life, they were required to pay for the drug themselves.

Again, an isolated incident. Not the average experience.

That was what I was asking Jim.. I've heard about rationing, and was curious about her experiences, both working for a provider, and from people she may know who have been "customers"

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about "rationing". I do know that some diagnostic machines are in short supply and hence there will be a longer wait for those who need to use these. Also, there might be rationing of actual care providers as there is a shortage of these as well. But in both of these case, patients are prioritized according to need, not age or circumstance.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yeah, I support personal choice and personal responsibility.
I have no fundamental problem with Socialism, other than the fact that it ignores basic human lazyness.

You either completely missed or ignored the suffix.

If you create a system that eliminates the Rewards for hard work, and doesn't create a disincentive to laziness large portions of society will take the milquetoast.

Still way off the mark, either missing or ignoring the point.

When a Certified Nurse Practitioner gets the same pay as a Ob/GYN, why would any sane person spend 8 years of school, go through a fellowship, when they can make as much by taking a test?

I never said equal pay for any and all jobs, nor did I imply it was a good idea.


You might want to read up on what a social democracy is all about,
because your knowledge you display on the subject is lacking.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thanks for your input Betsy,

I'm not sure I'd trust MY government to handle health care fairly, Actually I'm pretty sure I wouldn't

 

[DeletedUser]

You either completely missed or ignored the suffix.


Still way off the mark, either missing or ignoring the point.


I never said equal pay for any and all jobs, nor did I imply it was a good idea.


You might want to read up on what a social democracy is all about,
because your knowledge you display on the subject is lacking.

I deliberately decided not to remark anything about social-democracy, because I want to keep this subject moving, and not get bogged down with strictly political points.

I stated my opinions on socialism in general, to explain my general distrust of systems that take away individual choice and responsibility.


The example I posted came straight from the Government Option Heath Bill that they're attempting to push through in the US Legislature.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yeah, I support personal choice and personal responsibility.

I was just checking to see if my suspicions were correct.

I have no fundamental problem with Socialism, other than the fact that it ignores basic human lazyness.

If you create a system that eliminates the Rewards for hard work, and doesn't create a disincentive to laziness large portions of society will take the milquetoast.




Nope.

Ok, now you've angered me. Let me tell you a little something. I'm a single mother of 3 children (all by the same father and yes we were married and yes we planned all those kids). Do you know what I've done to support myself and my children?

I've worked 2 jobs at the same time and neither offered health care. I would get up at 6am to go to one job where I made $9 an hour and slaved in a hot kitchen for 36 hours a week Monday - Friday and sometimes weekends if they needed it. I was not allowed overtime because the company was too cheap to pay it. They did not offer health care. On Thursday nights I would bartend and on the weekends. So basically on Thursdays I would get up at 6 am, go to one job and work about 8 hours. Get home a little after 4pm, make my kids dinner, get ready and go to my other job so I could sling beers all night. If I was lucky I was home by 3am. I'd be back up at 6am to go back to my other job where I usually put in a 10 hour day as it was our busiest day. So now I'm home around 6pm. Feed kids dinner, get ready and go back to slinging beers until 3am. If I was really lucky I got to sleep in until 10am on Saturdays, spend some time with my children and do all the running around I needed to do before I had to be back at work slinging beer yet again. Getting abused by patrons and dealing with drunk people, breaking up fights, cleaning up puke, cooking for them until 1 am, etc.

If you think that someone like me is lazy and doesn't deserve health care then I don't know what to tell you. You are selfish and live in a bubble.

Having health care will not increase the amount of time I get to spend with my children but at least when I get sick I won't have to worry about being able to afford to go to the doctor or being able to take my kids if they are. I miss one paycheck because I get too ill and my kids and I have to seriously consider where we will be living next.

 

[DeletedUser]

Corporate greed has caused a steadily decline benefits, including insurance for the past 25 years or so. Insurance coverage has gotten worse and much more expensive, especially to insure your wife and children. Executives were rewarded for destroying their employees' lives with fat bonuses and the companies themselves were rewarded with tax breaks.

 

[DeletedUser]

Ok, now you've angered me. Let me tell you a little something. I'm a single mother of 3 children (all by the same father and yes we were married and yes we planned all those kids). Do you know what I've done to support myself and my children?

I've worked 2 jobs at the same time and neither offered health care. I would get up at 6am to go to one job where I made $9 an hour and slaved in a hot kitchen for 36 hours a week Monday - Friday and sometimes weekends if they needed it. I was not allowed overtime because the company was too cheap to pay it. They did not offer health care. On Thursday nights I would bartend and on the weekends. So basically on Thursdays I would get up at 6 am, go to one job and work about 8 hours. Get home a little after 4pm, make my kids dinner, get ready and go to my other job so I could sling beers all night. If I was lucky I was home by 3am. I'd be back up at 6am to go back to my other job where I usually put in a 10 hour day as it was our busiest day. So now I'm home around 6pm. Feed kids dinner, get ready and go back to slinging beers until 3am. If I was really lucky I got to sleep in until 10am on Saturdays, spend some time with my children and do all the running around I needed to do before I had to be back at work slinging beer yet again. Getting abused by patrons and dealing with drunk people, breaking up fights, cleaning up puke, cooking for them until 1 am, etc.

If you think that someone like me is lazy and doesn't deserve health care then I don't know what to tell you. You are selfish and live in a bubble.

Having health care will not increase the amount of time I get to spend with my children but at least when I get sick I won't have to worry about being able to afford to go to the doctor or being able to take my kids if they are. I miss one paycheck because I get too ill and my kids and I have to seriously consider where we will be living next.

Denisero, I'm sorry you took my statement out of context. Or perhaps I didn't make myself clear

The statement regarding laziness has no bearing on healthcare. It was in regards to SOCIALISM.

I never questioned you, your parenting skills, work ethic, or anything else that you flew off the handle and ranted about.

I haven't, and won't ask any questions, or make any comments, about you or your children

Corporate greed has caused a steadily decline benefits, including insurance for the past 25 years or so. Insurance coverage has gotten worse and much more expensive, especially to insure your wife and children. Executives were rewarded for destroying their employees' lives with fat bonuses and the companies themselves were rewarded with tax breaks.

Elmyr, is it corporate greed, or is it that health costs have risen pretty dramatically in the last 35 years or so? As new tests are developped, and New machines created, New Treatments,

Those costs are either paid by the patient, or an insurance company.

If it's paid by insurance companies it will result in higher premiums for everyone.

Businesses exist to make money, and when benefits become too expensive they become less available, or more expensive.


Where is the greed?

 

[DeletedUser]

It sounded to me like you were saying if you don't have health care then it is your own fault for being lazy. Why should you pay for lazy people to have health care (to paraphrase another of your posts). Health care should be a right of every person. It works in other countries and you don't see their industries shutting down because nobody wants to work. There are plenty of hard working people basically working themselves into sickness or even to death trying to pay their bills and provide for their children, all the meanwhile praying they don't fall ill.

Universal health care is not the enemy. The current health care system is not founded on helping ill people. It is about making the most money possible. When insurance companies are telling the doctors what treatments they are allowed to provide to their patients, to the point of denying life saving operations, this has got to be unacceptable. There are thousands of horror stories out there about such things and even former insurance company workers and executives who will tell you the number one priority of their job was to keep costs low and deny treatment.

 

[DeletedUser]

It sounded to me like you were saying if you don't have health care then it is your own fault for being lazy. Why should you pay for lazy people to have health care (to paraphrase another of your posts). Health care should be a right of every person. It works in other countries and you don't see their industries shutting down because nobody wants to work. There are plenty of hard working people basically working themselves into sickness or even to death trying to pay their bills and provide for their children, all the meanwhile praying they don't fall ill.

Universal health care is not the enemy. The current health care system is not founded on helping ill people. It is about making the most money possible. When insurance companies are telling the doctors what treatments they are allowed to provide to their patients, to the point of denying life saving operations, this has got to be unacceptable. There are thousands of horror stories out there about such things and even former insurance company workers and executives who will tell you the number one priority of their job was to keep costs low and deny treatment.

The quote you misquoted was "Why should someone have the right to take money from my wallet to pay for their health care"

And once again my statement about socialism was NOT about healthcare. It's about the tendency for people in socialist systems to stop trying to excel, or work as hard, since there's no longer a reward for it.

Why should person do the hard work to run a farm successfully when all the food will be taken away and given to others. He'd do just as well to slack off, not worry about success, since the government will always make sure he has enough to eat.

 

[DeletedUser]

Elmyr, is it corporate greed, or is it that health costs have risen pretty dramatically in the last 35 years or so?

It's greed. Yes, they exist to make money and have a responsibility to their shareholders, but they also have a responsibility to their employees. Executives are only in it for the bonuses.

Honestly, if you don't believe corporate greed is at least partly responsible for the state of the economy, you're a fool.

 

[DeletedUser]

You are a little late for the farm analogy. Most farms have been bought out by large corporations and the idea of an independent farmer in this country is almost dead. This thread isn't about Socialism. It is about health care.

This is just going to be one of those threads where no matter how many people from other countries with national health care step forward and say its great no one will listen because the big business of health care in America has done it's job of fear mongering so well.

 

[DeletedUser]

It's greed. Yes, they exist to make money and have a responsibility to their shareholders, but they also have a responsibility to their employees. Executives are only in it for the bonuses.

Honestly, if you don't believe corporate greed is at least partly responsible for the state of the economy, you're a fool.

We're not talking about the economy here, we're talking about health care

You are a little late for the farm analogy. Most farms have been bought out by large corporations and the idea of an independent farmer in this country is almost dead. This thread isn't about Socialism. It is about health care.

This is just going to be one of those threads where no matter how many people from other countries with national health care step forward and say its great no one will listen because the big business of health care in America has done it's job of fear mongering so well.

If they're happy with it, great.

I don't trust politicians to control health care fairly, rather than to distribute it in such a way that it becomes a tool to get votes.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm all for government run health care if we as a people start a revolution, overthrow our current government and replace it with me since I'm the only person I trust to get the job done right.

In all seriousness, I don't think government health care would be a good idea with our current government. Yes, we a have a new president that wants to change the world, but one man is not enough. Unfortunately, many Americans are too lazy to actually pay attention to their representatives. They vote strictly by party so the same politicians that they constantly complain about stay in office. Also, both parties have seemed to band together to make it as difficult as possible for another party to emerge. They have done a great job dividing the country in half by each agreeing to take one side or the other of controversial issues.

I'm afraid I strayed off topic a bit there so I will try to get back on track. Government run health care is good idea, if the government in questions gives a damn about its people, which unfortunately, ours does not. All it cares about is maintaining power. Its more like a group of dictators masquerading as a democracy.

 

[DeletedUser]

Why do all of the qualms against government run healthcare come by completely baseless assumptions that the government is pure evil and is only trying to ruin your life? You people need to put on some tin hats, man.

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't think its evil or trying to ruin our life. It has merely lost its focus. The two party system is the worst thing to ever happen to our country. By its nature it inhibits the growth of a country by dividing the people in half. I would like to see government run health care, but first we would need a massive overhaul of the government. We would need more sensible people in congress who truly want to make this country better and will not listen to special interest groups and lobbyists. We would also need to cut government spending elsewhere to pay for it because raising taxes much more would hurt our economy. And don't think that we will be a be able to afford more taxes since we won't have to pay for health care. Most companies will simply reduce your wages claiming that the cost of living has gone down. If we simply raised taxes for it, I would likely have to get a second job in order to pay for my mortgage. The company I work for has great benefits and I only pay fifty dollars a month for my health insurance which has pretty good coverage. Will the government be able to provide health care for me just as cheap?

 

[DeletedUser]

Most insurance companies won't cover pre-existing conditions and also have a cap on lifetime benefits. Should you have a pre-existing condition health care coverage is very expensive if you can even get it. Should you or a family member become very ill you can find yourself at the end of your benefits and cut off from having insurance at all.

 

[DeletedUser1105]

Being from the UK, I find the american healthcare system baffling. I'm only 23, so I have only ever known the National Health Service. I can't imagine it being better any other way.

How can it be justified that people only get the treatment that they can afford to pay insurance for?

Our healthcare system is far from perfect, but I am willing to bet that the public have more input into the services provided than you do in the US. It has not always been that way, and it isn't quite where it should be just yet, but the involvement of service users in the services provided is getting better.

I have to vote for government run healthcare, but with patient and public involvement.

 

[DeletedUser]

well you see the problem with govt run health care is the doctors are paid less or if they are paid the same it is a waste of money. so if they are paid less all the good doctors go work in the us or Switzerland or something.

the other problem is if health care is free for every one. you don't avoid going there if it is something small. so if you stub your toe on a wall you go to the hospital to talk to the doctor so you can hear some jokes or something i dont know.

so then the lines get really long so it takes for ever to get treatment for something serious. so a lot of people actually come down from canada into the us to go to the doctor or hospital. and in Canada there are sort of black market doctors that arnt part of the govt that people go to.


and i dont see the govts ability to provide health care in the constitution

honestly the govts main job is to keep peace in the world and the country.

 

[DeletedUser]

well you see the problem with govt run health care is the doctors are paid less or if they are paid the same it is a waste of money. so if they are paid less all the good doctors go work in the us or Switzerland or something.

*sigh* You lines of reasoning are flawed.
We have both private hospitals (a few), and gouverment run hospitals over here, and we still got plenty of good doctors, surgeons, etc.

the other problem is if health care is free for every one. you don't avoid going there if it is something small. so if you stub your toe on a wall you go to the hospital to talk to the doctor so you can hear some jokes or something i dont know.

You are wrong. Sure, some people go there whenever they think something is wrong, only diffrence now is that they don't have to be rich. Introducing a minor fee for examination will somewhat discourage people to go, unless they think it's worth going.

Works like a charm in my country.

so then the lines get really long so it takes for ever to get treatment for something serious. so a lot of people actually come down from canada into the us to go to the doctor or hospital. and in Canada there are sort of black market doctors that arnt part of the govt that people go to.

Yes, because doctors are too stupid to prioritize patients, and go by 'first come, first served'.

Perhaps, just perhaps some of those that go down can afford private treatment, and would rather cough up some dough than wait in line like everyone else.

honestly the govts main job is to keep peace in the wold and the country.

So the gouverment is to police the world and what exactly do you mean by keeping the peace in the country?

Personally I'd say the gouverment's job is to care for its citizens and look out for its interrest nationaly and abroad. Policing, education, healthcare, etc are all within this definition.