Duel Ranking System

TJ Tuttle

Well-Known Member
As we all know our present duel ranking system is based on experience gained from dueling. Unfortunately this system really doesn't do much for telling us who the best dueler really is....or where the exp came from.

Did the top 10 duelers in a world gain their exp from dueling down? Did they gain it from banging workers and adventurers.

Our present system does nothing except hide down in the middle ranks who our best duelers in each world may be...the 0 mot dueler.

Personally I know several 0 mot duelers ranked in the 2000 range who would go through most of the top ranked duelers like a tornado through a cheap mobile home park.

So I would like to solicit some suggestions here on the possible ways to achieve a meaningful dueler ranking system.

Some things I have considered as a proposed change to this system.

1. That rankings be based on wons/losses not exp.

2. That if players defeat someone ranked higher than they are then they switch rankings ( ie the 100th rank dueler by win/losses challenges the 80th ranked and defeats him. They would switch rankings).

3. That the dueling level system be changed from exp to a win loss system.

Perhaps something along the lines of so many wins moves you up a dueling level - your losses.

As an example 25 wins is needed to move you up a dueling level - your losses. So a player with 75 wins - 25 losses would have an adjusted dueling level record of 50. If his actual level was 10 his dueling level would be 12.

A players dueling level could also drop using this system to reflect the fact that he retired from dueling, respeced to fort fighting, etc, back to his real level based on losses exceeding his wins.

Again these numbers are just for example purposes.

Something else a change would accomplish is address the "problem" that is often whined about of the 0 mot keeping his dueling level down to hit "easy targets."

Based on something along these lines while he would not win exp for dueling as a 0 mot he would be properly ranked based on his dueling capabilities. If he was a top dueler he would be ranked as so based on this new system of adjusted dueling levels.

Thoughts...feedback..suggestions ?
 

-Neo-

Banned
i agree with changing the ranking system, i dont agree in changing dueling levels.
i like the ranking whereif you beat someone then you take his place, but i dont think you should swap. for example:
rank -player
1 - A
2 - B
3 - C
4 - D

if D beats player A then everyone looses a rank and D gets rank 1:
1 - D
2 - A
3 - B
4 - C

so i say YES to a new duelling ranking system, NO to changing how you earn XP..., And no to swapping.
i believe keeping it simple would favour everyone.
:)
 

TJ Tuttle

Well-Known Member
Neo I agree simple is good.

But what i see as a problem as in your example is everyone loosing a rank. Why should those players in between drop down one rank when they weren't involved in the duel at all?

Seems sort of unfair to them to me, but it would still be a more accurate reflection of who is who among duelers than what we are using now.
 
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Miss Sarajevo

Sadly most ranked duelers on almost every world are pure offense and sleep forever, even the resistance ones, then they whine (if you are fortunate enough to catch them out of bed) that a player that doesn't do so is a higher level than they are (and therefore has more AP/SP), I wonder why *Eye Roll*

I can list numerous ranked duelers on various worlds that operate in such a way.

So yes the duel ranking system is flawed, but I don't fancy the chances of F catching B out bed, very highly.
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
agree the duel rankings need to be changed in the way its done.

I dont have an answer but as far as basing it on wins and losses its rather hard to do. there would be nothing to stop a 0 motivation dueler becoming top through easy targets given you can get in 20 duels a day.

It is also totally wrong to base the rankings on xp alone and most of the top #15 rankers on worlds have no business being there as far as ability is concerned.

I feel the duel lvl has a lot to do with it as most high ranked players even tho im around the same lvl mark i cant hit if they are too high up when i know Id slaughter them but a rising duel lvl at high end just kills your dueling fun all too quickly for lack of targets... same as when your duel lvl goes too high when low lvl your getting attacked by someone 30 or 40 lvls higher even more in some cases, hardly an indication of the higher lvls ability just a simple imbalance with points at that stage.

It certainly should be looked at and it would be easy if only certain classes could duel/be dueled then it would separate duelers from workers totally but i understand people like to change style as the game goes on... builders become duelers etc

Like i say I dont have the answer I wish I did.

PS yknow what I really hate ? the way you can duel people after an hour when youve lost and they are offline and gain an easy win through just reading the duel report. Id like to see less info on what you hit and where exactly and just the indication you won or lost. Working out what side to aim at etc is fine. Its just silly in my opinion and too easy to adjust in 1 hr and certainly dosnt mean your the better dueler. Maybe a time limit of 3 hrs if you attack someone and lose would go some way to giving them a chance to get back online before you change stance and pawn them.
 
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Miss Sarajevo

Trouble is with duel level how do you stop a player hitting lvl 99 without dueling then doing nothing but duel.. They'll most likely have 15 lvls on a player that has dueled none stop since the server started and hasn't spent 75% of their time in a hotel.

Vic Said: Like i say I dont have the answer I wish I did.

Yeah it's screwed up currently. But I can't think of a solution either.
 

bill doolin

Maybe it should go to a college football bcs type system. Where you factor in wins and losses, strength of opponents/schedule, margin of victory, etc. etc. LOL

Now before anyone gets all fired up, I am just joking. I don't know what the best solution is either.
 

Saltin

I think no matter what the ranking system is it can and will be manipulated,we are talking about egos after all :)

it's no more unfair than the proposed solution of win/loss ratio which can just as easily be manipulated.Would dueling hundreds of workers and achieving a high win ratio make you deserve the ranking more? I don't think so.

Edit:some unnecessary comments.
 
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Black Max

Well-Known Member
An idea... or... um... ideas....

How about this...

1) Get rid of dueling levels altogether...

2) Make soldiers and duelers have almost the same advantages/disadvantages (eg tactics/health bonuses) ... except... continue to make the soldier's quest lines advantage firearm duelers...((You need dex/charisma etc for lots of the quest jobs)) and make the dueler's quest line advantage melee duelers... eg: High strength/vig/reflex type jobs for their quest line.

Even come out with cool new clothes/weapons based more on a person's dueling build type.. ((Eg: Firearms... need better hp clothes... etc))

3) Let all builders and adventurers be unable to be dueled... until such a time that they want to... they then click a button (much like the character class one at lev 10) from this point on... they can be dueled. (This cannot be reverted back... again... just like their character class)

Their class advantages stay the same... and when they can become 'duelable'... they keep the builder/adventurer benefits. ((Their advantage is they can level up quickly... but are disadvantaged later on as they don't have the hp/tactics benefit of duelers and soldiers)).

Why step 3? ...because of step 4...

4) Each duel you make is scored like this...

A win = +ive points, a loss = no points.... or -ive points...

The points are based on what level difference between yourself and the opponent you duel. (Xp gained also depends on this difference) ((Remember there are now no adventurers or builders to get easy points from... unless they allow themselves to start dueling))

E.g: Lev 50 player duels lev 35 player and wins = 1 point.
(Lev 50 vrs Lev 36= 3 points... ((then add +2 for each level....)) so Lev 50 vrs Lev 50 = 30 points.... Lev 50 vrs Lev 65 = 60 points...)

and the points are reversed when being dueled... eg: If I was lev 65 and a lev 50 dueler dueled me and lost to me... I would get the 60 points. :)

The points can be used to rank players. The xp given can be determined using some formula that the developers think is appropriate.

5) Keep the skill/attribute buying ability in place... but for every one att and three skills... the player's level will go up to reflect this premium advantage. This way... if TJ Tuttle (for example Tj :) )and Black Max are both level 50.... and he decides to duel me... If he has purchased no skills/att...he is still a lev 50 player.... whereas if I have bought one att and 3 skills... then my level raises to Lev 51...

**This way... all duelers will know that a player that they duel is in-fact the level their player level ranking states they are... and we can tip our hats to players who genuinely have a better duel build than ours..... not a deeper purse...:D

What about this idea?? Hmmmm??

Max.
 

Ripett

Well-Known Member
Interesting suggestions Max...

A few suggestions tho:
4) Award points ONLY for dueling equal or higher levels... but not for dueling someone of lower level. Simply put, you're higher level and therefore should be expected to win under normal circumstances so why should you get reward for that? If higher level player got attacked than it might give only a fraction of points that a lower level player would get if he won.

To use your example, in a duel between level 50 player and level 65 player, if level 50 win he get 60 points. But if level 65 win he get only 1 point [if he got attacked]... or no points [if he was attacker].

5) Problem is someone could buy only AP's and no SP's [or only SP's and no AP's] and by your system he wouldn't get additional level...
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
Well Max

1. Ive always said get rid of the dueling level altogether it measures nothing, restrict the dueling to those within a set lvl say 10 lvls above or below etc

2. itll never happen classes are varied as it is and it makes things diverse... however much i dislike it..

3. Dont like 3 there will be too many hiders until higher lvl meanwhile that annoying chicken ass adventurer will call your forts and have no retribution ... youll end up with towns full of unduelable fort fighters :(

4. Aye something like that point system or +2 points for a soldier or dueler +1 for a worker etc

5.. like it Max. i dont like not having a clue what size purse im dueling its incredibly annoying there is no indication if the guy has bought 20 skills etc ... at least on old worlds you know roughly what the opponent has and if you lose you lose fair... but the new worlds ? bahh theres always that Q did you mess up or were you out priced ?
 

Eli Makepeace

This is another of those subjective "I would like the game to be more...." threads.

The current rankings are on duel experience. They don't claim any objective status. If you like ranking on some other factor, like duels won or win/loss ratio there's nothing to stop you having your own 'special olympics' ranking on that basis. There is no such thing as a 'best dueller' per se - it depends on what value you place on certain things. Is a dueller who fights once and wins better than one who fights three times and wins twice? You will never get a definitive answer to that question.

Seems like some 0 motivation duellers, as well as avoiding the penalty of increased duelling level want to get some of the ranking glory too. Cake and eat it.

That said, there may be a case for displaying duel stats in additional ways such as win/loss %, duels fought etc. without affecting anything in the current game. Imho it's really a bit of a non-issue.
 

Corganer

Maybe it should go to a college football bcs type system. Where you factor in wins and losses, strength of opponents/schedule, margin of victory, etc. etc. LOL
Actuallly Bill Doolin, when I first read TJ Tuttle's post, I immediately thought of this. How can this be done by keeping it simple though ..and that is where it wouldn't work.

Maybe a system where EXP counts for so much of the formula, but also Wins counts as part of the formula. Something where EXP duelers have to duel to stay on top, and where zero motivation duelers gain EXP. RIght now only one of those happen. If zero motivation duelers want to be part of the "best of" discussion, then they have to earn EXP. Otherwise ...to bad.

Seems like some 0 motivation duellers, as well as avoiding the penalty of increased duelling level want to get some of the ranking glory too. Cake and eat it.
= exactly

While EXP shouldn't be the only thing that puts you on the duel rankings, it certainly should matter because that is sort of a "strength of schedule".

A simple fix, I agree is with Eli MakePeace:
That said, there may be a case for displaying duel stats in additional ways such as win/loss %, duels fought etc. without affecting anything in the current game. Imho it's really a bit of a non-issue.
This would be just like town rankings and would list everything for people to see. It would be like a town ranking. Sure we see who #1 overall is, but then I could click on the "Wins" category and see who is winning that, etc.

Or one step further is add dueler points up where wins count, exp counts, etc (like a good dueling town who has a lot of dueling points, but no fort points ...and still up in the rankings. etc.)
 

TJ Tuttle

Well-Known Member
I don't have the answer any more than anyone else but I do think that with any change..

1. Exp duelers should still gain exp

2. O mot still should be able to duel for no exp

3. Wins/losses should also count in rankings

And it would be a nice addition if "top guns" could challenge each other for ranking just like in the "old west". If the lower rank won he moved up and took the ranking of the player he beat.
 

Corganer

The problem with ranking like the old west ....challenging and taking the rank of who you beat = it will end up with a lot of poaching, like I said.

If TJ Tuttle is #1 (of course!) and I am #200 and I bring my #450 friend. I could get a bunch of health from you ...and friend could finish you off and take #1? That would happen a lot and would not be fair as it would not accurately reflect anything.
 

TJ Tuttle

Well-Known Member
The problem with ranking like the old west ....challenging and taking the rank of who you beat = it will end up with a lot of poaching, like I said.

If TJ Tuttle is #1 (of course!) and I am #200 and I bring my #450 friend. I could get a bunch of health from you ...and friend could finish you off and take #1? That would happen a lot and would not be fair as it would not accurately reflect anything.
nah..i would just whup you both :)
 

DeletedUser5597

The dueling sistem now works perfectly, stop with non senses
 

Saltin

Actuallly Bill Doolin, when I first read TJ Tuttle's post, I immediately thought of this. How can this be done by keeping it simple though ..and that is where it wouldn't work.

Maybe a system where EXP counts for so much of the formula, but also Wins counts as part of the formula. Something where EXP duelers have to duel to stay on top, and where zero motivation duelers gain EXP. RIght now only one of those happen. If zero motivation duelers want to be part of the "best of" discussion, then they have to earn EXP. Otherwise ...to bad.
yeap it's just a matter of building the right algorithm and then coding it :)
Many other games have done just that.

Something that would take into account all the important factors and distribute weight and points based on a formula.For example:

For both attacker and defender we would look at their rank,their level their class and even their clothes(makes a huge difference doesn't it?) their weapons too, and even any extra skill points/attributes (bought or from quests)and assign a value/number for each of these factors then add them up and come up with a much more accurate picture of what is a best dueler.
 

-Neo-

Banned
well having read through all posts, i have ascertained myself that a duelling rank should reflect wins and losses.
gaining xp doesnt say anything as per how good you are at a duel, only beating others does.

if you have 300 wins and 800 losses and you are ranked number one dueller!!!!!!!!
THERE IS ONE HUGE PROBLEM WITH THE SYSTEM!!!
ive never seen any ranking anywhere where loosing more than winning gets you first place!
ridiculous.

i reckon the easiest way to set up a proper duelling rank would be like many other rankings:

the old 3 points for a win, 2 points for a draw, 1 point for a loss could be used here:

+1 point for a win
-1 point for a loss

again, as simple as.