DeletedUser
Stop bashing Christianity...
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Stop bashing Christianity...
DeletedUser
DeletedUser
I know of someone who used to own a house, had a wife and family, and a good job as a lecturer in mathematics at the local university.
Then he started living in a cardboard box because he didn't want to be found by the aliens that are controlling everyones minds. He wore old suits and a foil hat (to stop them reading his mind or finding him because of his brain waves) and carried a home made antenna (it tells him when they are near).
So, is it wrong of me to dismiss his beliefs as ridiculous and damaging?
I have not seen him wandering the streets for almost a decade now, I'm guessing his family finally tracked him down and had him committed.
If they did, are they reprehensible fiends for dismissing his beliefs?
Not all beliefs are equal, I certainly wouldn't doubt a persons sanity because they believed in the existance of elephants or pyramids. Even the religious amongst us are likely to doubt the sanity of somebody who believes they hear the voice of god.
Then he started living in a cardboard box because he didn't want to be found by the aliens that are controlling everyones minds. He wore old suits and a foil hat (to stop them reading his mind or finding him because of his brain waves) and carried a home made antenna (it tells him when they are near).
So, is it wrong of me to dismiss his beliefs as ridiculous and damaging?
I have not seen him wandering the streets for almost a decade now, I'm guessing his family finally tracked him down and had him committed.
If they did, are they reprehensible fiends for dismissing his beliefs?
Not all beliefs are equal, I certainly wouldn't doubt a persons sanity because they believed in the existance of elephants or pyramids. Even the religious amongst us are likely to doubt the sanity of somebody who believes they hear the voice of god.
DeletedUser
I Dont Believe In Them, But I Dont Know For Sure That They Are Fake.
So Until Then I Will Not Condemn Them As A Lie.
And BTW, The Easter Bunny Is Totally Real.
DeletedUser
Present some reasonable arguments and I for one shall listen.Yes Adelei! John and Hellstormm never listen
Faith proves nothing.
Oh yes, let's accept everything as a possibility just because we can't disprove it.
The burden of proof lies upon the one whom makes the claim,
and for thousands of years the belivers have failed to provide as much as
a single shred of rational evidence supporting their faith.
DeletedUser
Yes Adelei! John and Hellstormm never listen
Actually, I do listen. You just don't like my answers...
DeletedUser
I never listen. I just read.
DeletedUser
Why is it not ok to do so?
Do you believe that when you go to sleep tonight you will wake up tomorrow morning? I bet you do, even without thinking it. Yet there is not a shred of evidence that you will wake up tomorrow morning. The fact that it happened this morning and yesterday morning and every morning for the last 20 years does not mean it will happen tomorrow morning. In fact, science shows us that there will be a morning when you will not wake up. That is a 100% certainty. Yet you still believe that you will wake up tomorrow morning.
Why do you love someone? There is no scientific explanation for it. Sure, there are chemicals in the brain that trigger some effects, but what causes it to trigger for your wife/husband/whatever, and not for the next person? These things do not have scientific proof. Yet we love and/or hate every day.
Faith (religion) is like that. Sure, some do it because that is what they have learned or because it seems fashionable. But for some it is a feeling they have, like the love you feel for someone. For some it is a belief, like you believe that you will wake up tomorrow morning.
Let those that want to follow a religion, do so (without it causing harm to others of course). In that same breath, let those that do not choose to follow religion, not follow religion.
If there is a god he/she/it will sort us out when we die. If not, neither side has lost anything.
My question to you: Why do you feel the need to put down religion? Why the need to hammer in the fact that it is ridiculous to believe in something without scientific proof? Who are you actually trying to convince?
Once again, these things have all been created as fiction. Continuing to use them to make religion sound stupid, only ends up making you look stupid.
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DeletedUser
So, who wants to destroy the weak arguments in the post above?
Why do we feel the need to put down religion?
It isn´t that as much as it is discarding all kinds of superstition.
Religion is but one common form of silly superstition we´d be better off without.
Why do we feel the need to put down religion?
It isn´t that as much as it is discarding all kinds of superstition.
Religion is but one common form of silly superstition we´d be better off without.
DeletedUser
True, there would be a lot less wars without it, but people would have no consience. If there was no bible, would we know that killing was wrong? I, for one, believe in God, but just because I believe in him, doesn't mean he is real.
And Hellstromm, I don't believe in Santa Claus because he is a character created by the Cocacola company. It's fiction, and I don't believe in him unless proven otherwise. Even though he could be real, what are the chances?
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DeletedUser
Actually, there is considerable evidence...which you go on to mention yourself. We have a previous experience with waking up in the morning after going to sleep. We also can get our health checked which would give us an indication of whether we will generally survive a night's sleep. Is that absolute certainty? No. But there is a lot more evidence that we will wake up in the morning than that there is a "God"... If you are going to try to make a comparison, make it apples to apples. Not apples to bicycle tires.
Yet, on any given night, we still don't have reason to believe that we won't wake up (unless there are some extraordinary circumstances, like that we are 95 years of age, are trying to sleep exposed in the cold somewhere, etc)
I love this type of argument. It is an argument from ignorance. It is saying, "we don't know, therefore we have reason to believe X". Lack of absolute knowledge of the nature of love or that we will wake up in the morning doesn't give us reason to believe in a "God", nor does our lack of knowledge in some area make it reason to believe in something we have no reason to believe in a different area.
I don't see anyone keeping people from following a religion. I find it telling that you are so threatened by a different point of view, however.
This is getting close to Pascal's Wager...which is a horrible bet.
Why do you feel threatened by any disagreement with your religion?
It doesn't matter if they have been created as fiction or not. That has no bearing on the truth-value of the idea. And, I have seen no conclusive proof that someone didn't just make up your religion...
In any event, that you don't like the comparison doesn't mean that the comparison isn't valid.
There was nothing wrong with that post.
DeletedUser
God was a monkey, evolved into a human over millions of years, and then created us. Happy everyone?
Blasphemers are disgusting, Virginia! I can't believe you anymore.
DeletedUser
Obviously you cannot. Insinuating that something is so is hardly proof that it is. Is that not exactly doing as the religious people you are fighting so hard to put down?
Why would we be better without it? Do you think that the absence of religion will reduce the number of extremists? Do you believe that the absence of religion will reduce the number of cult like organisations? Do you even believe that the absence of religion will reduce the frequency of wars? These would all be very naive.
How exactly will the world be a better place without religion.
Given the absence of any religious guidelines or laws, would you willingly sit still while someone tries to kill you, or steal your things? I bet not. No sane person would. That is how we know that it is wrong.
Your whole attempt at logic and reason falls away with this statement. There is no way to have any reasonable discussion with a person as you.
If you can show me any indication anywhere, on this forum or anywhere else, that I follow any form of religion I will continue to entertain your ramblings. Until you can do so, none of your arguments or statements hold any credibility.
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DeletedUser
Let's see, because it's essentially a lie? A personal lie, a group lie, but a lie. Faith is the removal of doubt about a personal lie, but that does not make the lie a truth. It's still a lie, maybe not falsehood, but a lie to oneself because there is nothing substantive, nothing supporting the stance.Why is it not ok to do so?Originally Posted by Hellstromm
Fredigar, why is you think it's okay to believe in things without evidence, without supporting data, without even one iota of substantiation?
You're confusing belief with logic, mathematical probability.
Science doesn't show we will not wake up one morning, evidence shows us that. Don't confuse logical examination of evidence with scientific research.
Indeed, however with the average lifespan being around 75 years, that gives us about 26999 in 27000 chance we'll wake up each morning, and a far greater probability that you'll wake up on that particular morning based on your age and health.
You answered your own question. The problem here is, you don't know enough of the science on this subject to discuss it effectively. So, instead, you fill in the blanks with belief. How about accepting that you simply do not know? Once you accept that you do not know, you can start researching the subject and learn of what it is that causes such responses.
Respectfully, part of the flaw in all your arguments is you're attempting to present your ignorance on particular topics as a validation for belief.
Really? So you are now claiming that the motivation for creating a religion somehow makes it not stupid?Once again, these things have all been created as fiction. Continuing to use them to make religion sound stupid, only ends up making you look stupid.Originally Posted by Hellstromm
Do you believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, easter bunny, Freddy Kruger? If so, why? If not, why not?
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DeletedUser
I assume you have kids, or at least kids somewhere in the family. Do you promote the idea of santa clause and the tooth fairy to them? Why do you do that? Why do you lie to them?
For the purpose of this, lets give it that god is a lie. Is it a bad lie? If some people need the "lie" that is god to get through their day let them be. If the "lie" that is god helps to protect them (from depression, going mad, giving up etc), even if they falsely believe that the help comes from god, is that a bad thing?
Even if it is a lie, is it a bad thing?
Yet people die prematurely, for no apparent reason or unexpected reasons, every day. And still you believe that you will be the one that will be the one waking up tomorrow.
And while we are on the topic of mathematical probability: Go and calculate the probability that everything in the universe just spawned out of nothing and evolved in such a precise way. Then also calculate the probability that in all of the universe there exists a being that fits the description of god.
Mathematical probability does not give you any certainty. But you chose to believe it still.
Death is science. Every single cause of death has a scientific explanation. It has a scientific fact. Nothing to do with research.
And by all accounts you seem to connect logic and science. By your statements there is no scientific proof of god, so it is not logical to believe in god. Trying to throw in specific terms to discredit my statement does not work. The fact remain, one morning you will not wake up. And you keep on believing that tomorrow morning will not be that day.
Averages, mathematical probabilities. Nothing concrete though.
A robber can come to your house and kill you. A natural disaster can kill you. Taken all these things into consideration, your chances get less and less.
And still you believe that you will be one of the people that wake up tomorrow morning.
Funny thing this faith we have in some things.
Do you know enough about everything scientific you take as fact?
Your proposal that the lack of concrete expert knowledge on a subject disqualifies you from discussing it is absurd. Have you scientifically researched god? Found the proof that he does not exists? Yest you keep on discussing the topic. How about accepting that you simply do not know if god exist or not. (See how this can go round and round. If you keep on dodging statements and questions with seemingly clever repost, the discussion will go nowhere.)
And no, there is no scientific evidence that tells us why you like brunettes more than red heads. There is no scientific evidence that tells us why you feel more attracted to one of a set of twins than the other. What is known is that it is chemicals that cause those feelings, yet no knowledge of why those chemicals are produced for one person and not the next.
With continually dropping respect, the flaw in your arguments is that you try to dodge the statements/questions with attempted clever word play. You base your statements on beliefs that is not 100% scientifically proven, even if it is mathematically probable, yet you discredit other's believes because it is not 100% scientifically proven. Smacks of hypocrisy.
Neither you nor I know the motivation for "creating" religion. But we all know the motivation for creating the idea of santa and the tooth fairy.
DeletedUser
Yes, a lie, in and of itself, is a bad thing. Can a lie be used to cause more good than the lie is harm? Yes. But, it is still a lie.
Is religion more good than harm?
That's a whole different question and of course there are going to be differing opinions on it. I will say that I think that religion is an incredible waste of resources. People spend a lot of money and time on religion, building buildings, going to services, etc. And, of course, we've seen time and time again that religion can be manipulated to inspire people to do horrible things in its name. Wars, terrorism, corruption, etc, etc, etc...have all be justified or enabled through religion.
It has already been shown that there is evidence (not conclusive, but evidence) to suggest that on any given night, we have reason to believe that we will wake up in the morning.
You say this is analogous to faith in a "God". What evidence is there of a "God", then?
Simply put, there is none. Your analogy fails horribly. Your argument from ignorance similarly fails, as I've mentioned above. That we have a lack of certain knowledge in one area does not give rise to believing in anything we want to in another area.
Probability after the fact doesn't work. A lottery winner can't prove she didn't win because the chances are so small that she would have won.
In any event, let's turn it around. Go and calculate the probability that a "God" exists and that it created everything in the universe in this precise way.
You see, by adding "God", you actually make it more improbable, not less. You add on "God's" existence into the equation... Before, you just had the probability that the universe exists in this precise way. Now you've got that the universe exists in this precise way PLUS that "God" exists and created the universe in this precise way...
I don't see where anyone said that mathematical probability gives certainty.
Er...it is impossible to prove a negative. And, there is nothing to "scientifically research". There is absolutely no scientific evidence for or against "God", and by the nature of such a being (as I'm told by believers), there can never be.
Actually, when we don't know about something's existence one way or another, we generally say that thing doesn't exist...
Leprechauns, for example, we have conclusive proof either way. Do we say we don't know if they exist or not, or do we dismiss them as fiction?
More argument from ignorance. That we don't know everything does not, in any way, shape or form, give us reason to believe in or make reasonable belief in "God".
A story is going to require evidence to believe.
An incredible story (read unbelievable) is going to require an incredible amount of evidence to believe.
That we will wake up in the morning doesn't require anywhere near the kind of evidence to believe that there is some invisible sky-god thingie that created the universe....
Then you have absolutely no way of saying that they are not analogous, even by your flawed standards that somehow the "reasons for creation" is a defining measure of their comparability.
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DeletedUser
/yawn.
You bore me with your drivel.
Since you didn´t seem to catch it the first time around, I´ll state it plainly:
I found it a waste of time to fully reply to your inane post.
That´s an impressive amount of assumptions in such a short paragraph.
You do make an excellent job out of appearing the arrogant know-it-all.
Will the absence of religion reduce the number of extremists?
Yes. No religion would mean one less kind of extremist at the very least.
Perhaps it would change nothing, but either way there would be one less tool of manipulation.
"Cult like organizations". Wow. How very vague. Seeing how plenty are religious in nature, the answer is obvious.
As for religion causing war, I never said that. That was just another stupid assumption made by yourself.
Religion is but a tool, and a potent one at that.
Few things are capable of rallying the masses like the call of the divine and its spokesmen.
The reasons for war rarely changes, but underestimating
the impact of religion when it comes to justifying a war is naive.
If you still question how the absence of religion would make the world a better place, I could go on,
but if you are half as smart as you think you are... then you very well understand what I´m talking about.
DeletedUser
Can I get some indication on what your age is? Because you seem very young, with your naive outlook on life. That or you have led a very secluded life. Or maybe you are just trying to make sense and give reason to some believe you picked up while rebelling against the system or rebelling against your parents that most likely tried to give you a religious upbringing.
But whatever the reason is, your ideas are wrong, misguided and, like I have mentioned already, naive.
Extremism is a character trait of extremists. That sounds, duh logical, yet you do not seem to comprehend what it means. Extremists are extreme by their nature. Then they latch on to some cause to live out their extreme nature. Religion would be one of said causes. So is a love of nature, politics or even being a sports fan. Just about every facet of our world holds it's extremists. Some good, and some bad.
Not all religious extremists are bad either. Yes you do get the fanatic that blows himself up in the middle of a crowded infidel market, or the crusader that burns the woman at the stake because he perceives her to be a witch. But you also get the people that are so fanatical about their religion that they dedicate their whole life to help others, even at the cost of themselves.
Removing religion will not lessen the fanatics or the extremists. They will merely find another tool to live out their extremism.
Do not blame the tool if the craftsman is using it not as intended.
Cult like organisations. Not vague as you try to make it out to be. But simply a term to cover my own ass as well as encompassing a group larger than those groups you would classically term a cult. The term I should have used is high demand groups though. But dumbing it down to cult like organisations should be sufficient for anyone with some comprehension skills.
Covering my ass because you will get sued for calling any organisation a cult. And this is not even in the US where lawsuits are as common as buying burgers.
Having been involved in one of these groups, getting out of it and finding myself on the wrong side of just such a lawsuit, I can tell you that religion is but a small part in the scheme of things for these groups.
So the answer is not as obvious as you may think. But naivity on the subject makes it more comfortable for you.
As for wars, I never said you said so. I asked. There is a huge difference. But I can see that you are catching on to the whole "do not assume" thing. Too bad you lack application. Spamming the words unfounded do not help your cause at all.
Religion causing wars is one of the reasons that gets raised a lot. It was even mentioned earlier in this thread or one of the other threads.
But like you said, religion is a tool. But what you fail to mention is that it is one of many. Here again I need to add: do not blame the tool for the craftsman's work.
Where you do get it wrong is when you claim that "Few things are capable of rallying the masses like the call of the divine and its spokesmen."
On the contrary, any ideal that groups people can have this effect, given the right spokeman. Tool vs craftsman. These ideals are not only or even mainly religion as you try to suggest, but it includes culture, race, sexual orientaion and even support for a specific sports team. All of these are used to rally the masses.
Tool vs craftsman.
But please, go on. Let me hear more on how you blame one specific tool for what some craftsmen do with that.
DeletedUser
Actually, I'm the one that said that religion would cause less wars. Without religion, we'd probably be still waiting for World War 2, because Hitler wanted to exterminate all jews, meaning they follow a religion. I personally think it would mean less wars without a religion but thats just me. Because as JR said, there'd be one less tool, and one of the most frequently used tools, to start wars.
DeletedUser
This is what what religion does to people! They think that because we do not believe in their "god", they treat you like you are fool. And how is he misguided? He is following his OWN guide, his common sense, not some silly guide book that people wrote about life.
Comparing a sports fan who argues with people over his favorite team to a religious fanatic who will blow himself up because Allah told him too? As many others have said already, compare an apple to an apple.
How many times will you repeat tool and craftsmen? Religion is not a tool. Religion is the guide, which instructs you. The passion of the person is the tool. And the person is the builder. Without the guide, you would not know how to use the tool to do what you wish to do. Use your brain, like my good friend John has been using it.
Oh yes, any preacher can rally the masses. Hitler was one such preacher, who rallied the Germans to rebel and then to follow him. He used his belief as a guide, his voice as a tool, and he was the builder.
And yet, religion brings up separations between itself because of what it says. In the early days, this fictional book told us of how "God" hates gay people. Now, Christians are still arguing about it AND now have different ideas of that. Race, well, "God" wants everyone to follow him. Even though in his book, he talks about how he hates Arabs, the same as Arabs hate him. And for culture, well you all have to use crosses and pray and do a bunch of things no man can follow.
Times change. Back in the early days, we didn't have common and logical thought to support our ideas. Now, we have machines, archeology, scientists, everything from here to Shanghai to show that religion has been faked. A good example is your now proven and fake, Shroud of Turin. And another perfect example is your magical disappearing Arc of Noah. Your religion has no evidence to support itself. This is where your religion fails, and where superior logic has conquered. Now stop trying to play this game with us, and leave.
I have defeated all your pawns, taken down your castles, destroyed your knights, captured your bishops and queen, and have you in a checkmate. Now accept your defeat and give up.
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