Oh that's crap, and it's not arrogance to point out that knowledge is not even remotely the same as delusion or a personal lie. Someone doesn't "KNOW" God, they just presume to know something, or someone, of whom they have never truly met and have no knowledge except what they have created in their own head.
Please listen to yourself. It is the
HEIGHT of Arrogance to say that someone's spiritual experience is a "delusion" or a "personal lie"!! How in tarnation would you know? Really, who do you think you are?
In claiming to "KNOW" God, you can claim to know the intent of God, and therein dictate to others what God expects and/or wants. It is this that transfers delusion into arrogance.
Interesting. I bet you're a Bill Maher fan. God has revealed his character and nature in many ways, but 2 primary ones: His Son, and His Word (the Bible). What God "expects and/or wants" is clearly defined by both, irregardless of anyone who claims they know God. You don't need people to understand what God "expects and/or wants", you can find out all by yourself without help from anyone else.
, Seamus, try to stick with what you know. Gluons are expressions of quark interaction and are expressed in theories and hypotheticals. There is not "belief" in it, nor is there any faith holding to it. It is a name given to an influence that has been successfully measured, through the production of quark-gluon plasma and other tertiary evidence, and has thus far been presented as a stable explanation for the interactions of quarks. don't confuse blind, unsupported faith with "data" supported scientific theories, or hypotheses, which can and will be debunked as soon as any evidence is presented that conflicts with a theory/hypothesis.
Here's what I do know. Gluons are hypothetical particles. They have never been isolated. Same with quarks, I believe, of course all related. In other words, they are a theory. In your own words, "they are an influence", and we can detect and conclude that there must be some kind of binder holding this energy together. Then you make the telling statement that ascribing to this theory has nothing to do with faith or belief. Ahhh, now we have it! You don't understand faith! Of course, to ascribe to a theory is to believe in it. You exercise faith every day countless times, when you turn the ignition in your car or when you click on your mouse. You have faith in the mechanical systems behind those switches will kick in and do what they were designed to. To say you can hold to a theory but not believe in it or have faith in it is disingenuous. Could there be an alternate theory to explain the function of what Gluon's seem to do? Of course, and there is. Genesis 1 is completely compatible with particle physics. I like Dr. Morris' commentary on Genesis 1:2:
"The “Spirit” (Hebrew ruach) of “God” (Elohim) proceeded to “move upon the face of the waters” (literally, “vibrate in the presence of the waters”). Waves of gravitational energy and waves of electro-magnetic energy began to pulse forth from the great “Breath” (another meaning of ruach) of God, the Prime Mover of the universe. The unformed “earth” material (Hebrew eretz), as well as the “waters” permeating it (Hebrew shamayim) quickly coalesced into spherical form under the new force of gravity, and the first material body (Planet Earth) had been formed at a point in space."
So here we are-
Fact: Something must "confine" the energy which is the primary building block of mass.
Theory: It's the Gluons
Other Possibility: What the Bible says Col 1:17 "And he is before all things, and in him
all things hold together.
Science can't prove Gluons exist, nor can it disprove that matter and energy come from God and he sustains it. You can ridicule it, though. But it's better to be humble and acknowledge
it's possible. By the way, Evolution is still a theory, although we teach it as fact. Since we can't observe it, and we can't measure it, is it even a
scientific theory? Regardless, you
believe in this theory, don't you?
how we want? Do you honestly think agnostics and atheists live how they want? Of course, not, they live by their conscience and by the laws governing their stated societies. They live by the rules and laws of working together with others in their respective communities. And do watch out for this slippery slope line of reasoning, because there are far more Christians in American prisons than there are atheists. Far more...
What's a conscience? How do you get one? Why should you have to live by it? Wasn't Dahmer living consistently with his beliefs? Wasn't he completely intellectually honest? It's apparent now that the Colombine murderers completely bought in to their own existence being the result of a random particle - to - organism process.....and acted out in a way that makes no more sense than their own existence. Seriously Hellstrom, if you can go out and commit 10 atrocities, and
no one would ever know and you would never get in trouble for it, why would it matter? Just as long as you validated your own existence and served yourself, right? Why obey societal laws if
you weren't constrained to or didn't have to? Are you trying to live a "good" life? What's that, and why try if it costs you anything? Doesn't really matter, does it?
You're right, though, there is indeed a conscience. And God gave it to you.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
And as far as Christians in prison goes, you're spot on. All of Church history is replete with those who have been imprisoned, tortured, martyred and persecuted for their Faith. This will only increase. So you are right on here. The ones who are in prison because they are thieves, liars and murderers, what in the world makes you think they are Christians. Even "good" people who think they are Christians may not be. What do you think a Christian is?
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
"On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' "And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
reasoning. There is nothing but your claim that he MADE IT THIS WAY. You have no evidence and what you are saying is an incontestable, non-evidential claim. It's what you want to believe, and therefore you pose it as a fundamental, unquestionable necessity to your belief. Well, I question it, and you cannot provide evidence to support it, therefore it is less than a theory, less than hypothesis, it's a WANT. You want it to be true, nothing more.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
is a different thread I have yet to respond to, which I will do so in due course regarding evolution (busy guy over here). What I wish to bring up again is that "faith" has absolutely nothing to do with scientific analysis, and it is the opportunism of desperate argument, posed by religious dogma, that brings you to claim otherwise. You are not familiar with physics, biology, astronomy, etc. You have repeatedly demonstrated that in your posts. Thus, what you are claiming here is based on an ignorant stance. Yes, that's harsh, but it's true. You don't know what you're talking about and, in your defense, you continue to make false, ignorant claims to support your continued ignorance on this issue.
Take your time, I am busy as well. Desperate argument? I don't
feel desperate, please illuminate further. I think my points have been valid, they are not original to me, nor are yours to you. It's 2 different world views, but unlike you, I am not going to ridicule you, tell you are ignorant, or that your beliefs make you a deluded teddy bear holding weakling (paraphrasing you). You used "ignorant" 3 different time just now. Stop wasting your time then Holmes!
is one of the reasons I find discussing this issue with you to be a waste of time. You don't care to know what is known, you instead want to claim to know what is not known, for it gives you comfort to know. There is, of course, little comfort in not knowing, but if we didn't continue to strive to grow and learn, we would still be in the Dark Ages. And you know what? It wasn't religions that pulled us out of flat earth theories and God's will to the Bubonic Plague, it was basic scientific principles.
You sure claim to "know" a lot! You apparently "know" me, "know" my motives, "know" my ignorance level, "know" that God can't be "known", "know" that I don't want to "know" anything that is real or true, etc etc. Wow! You are quite the "all-knowing" super-seeing knowledgeable man of the year. Finally, I meet you! Folks, Hellstrom is Charles Xavier!!!
Oh and be careful with your revisionist histories that leave out the Protestant Reformation as perhaps the single most influential force behind moving to the modern era....
television, the computer, internet, fiber optics, buildings, concrete, print, automobiles, medicines, transplants, etc and so on... those were all based on verified scientific principles, previously theories. This is not faith, and the sooner you get it into your head, the sooner you'll start having a grasp of the importance of scientific discovery and how your claims of faith being a principle of science are completely unfounded, baseless.
I like the first half of your statement. You are right. All of the technologies you mentioned are based on verifiable, logical, orderly, scientific principle. However, you are being inconsistent. You want the benefit of what an orderly universe produces scientifically, but yet you believe in a universe where life and matter are random chance events. In other words, the universe is random (so you believe) but you want to study it as if it were logical and orderly! The universe is indeed logical and orderly, because that's how it was designed to be! And God did not stop there, he gave you a mind and an ability to think critically, and to logically investigate the world around you. Why can you "have faith" that the world will obey the same physical laws tomorrow as it will today? I'll tell you why, because God is consistent himself. Science would not really be possible in an illogical random universe! Think about it! Why would we have scientific laws and orderly principle if the universe is just a product of the big bang? How can you trust your brain? How do you know your deductions are right? BUT, if our minds were intentionally created, and the universe designed, then the real study of nature is not only possible, but we can do so with confidence and great accuracy. A Biblical christian embraces science! Evidence is evidence, I embrace it!
{Like all those hundreds of thousands of fossils we have showing trans-species life forms.....oh, wait.....) As someone else said "The realm of Science is indeed possible, because the Bible is true!" This was the heart cry of Sir Isaac Newton, one of the greatest scientists of all time. Please consider this my friend.
Yours in ignorance,
-Seamus