Antiziganism

DeletedUser · Sep 28, 2011

And your argument is just as valid as ---> http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html

DeletedUser · Sep 29, 2011

When you talk about gypsies, I would appreciate not referring african americans, american indians, jews or other groups that have been mistreated. There are thousands of history books about what they've been through and the oppression is not questionable. As far as I know, no such book about clear cut events involving gypsy discrimination and oppression exist (except in the case of the few who had the same fate as many jews during the second world war). It is the only example of documented oppression against gypsies (though they were not the primary and original target).
Why I expect you not to make such comparisons? Because there's none. Gypsy history and fate does not resemble one bit the one of american indians or african americans. Making such arguments as the one above should be invalid in this case. Is like comparing oil and water, they don't mix match or resemble, they're just both liquids. Gypsies are a trouble minority and there's no doubt about it. The gypsy problem is not a product of discrimination and oppression, as I mentioned many times before, they are the product of their own lifestyle, who had one to many opportunities to lead a normal life like anybody else, but who continuously refuse to do so, because it is easier to steal and beg. Is hard to understand and if you will look at african americans every time you want to make an argument about gypsies, you couldn't be more wrong and more far from the truth.

DeletedUser · Sep 29, 2011

Really?!? So you're saying that, except for proportionately more gypsies being killed in concentration camps than any other minority group during ww2, the gypsies were otherwise not persecuted or enslaved?

You sure you want to stick with that line?

Duduie said:
When you talk about gypsies, I would appreciate not referring african americans, american indians, jews or other groups that have been mistreated. There are thousands of history books about what they've been through and the oppression is not questionable. As far as I know, no such book about clear cut events involving gypsy discrimination and oppression exist (except in the case of the few who had the same fate as many jews during the second world war). It is the only example of documented oppression against gypsies (though they were not the primary and original target).
Why I expect you not to make such comparisons? Because there's none. Gypsy history and fate does not resemble one bit the one of american indians or african americans. Making such arguments as the one above should be invalid in this case. Is like comparing oil and water, they don't mix match or resemble, they're just both liquids. Gypsies are a trouble minority and there's no doubt about it. The gypsy problem is not a product of discrimination and oppression, as I mentioned many times before, they are the product of their own lifestyle, who had one to many opportunities to lead a normal life like anybody else, but who continuously refuse to do so, because it is easier to steal and beg. Is hard to understand and if you will look at african americans every time you want to make an argument about gypsies, you couldn't be more wrong and more far from the truth.

DeletedUser · Sep 29, 2011

Yes, they were never the primary target of oppression. I stick to that

DeletedUser · Sep 30, 2011

Duduie said:
Yes, they were never the primary target of oppression. I stick to that

Let's cover labeling. There are different groups of Gypsies (derived from the assumption they were Egyptians, and which is now commonly used as a derogative), the most prominent of which are the Roma & Sinti. I find myself inclined to use something all encompassing that isn't derogatory, so I'll be referring to them all as Romani.

Slavery
You argued that Romani never experienced slavery. This is simply incorrect. In fact, it is grossly incorrect. Indeed, their term in slavery predates that of the African American. Romani were slaves earlier than 1250, taken from the Mongols & Tartans and continued in their servitude. They were, in fact, initially brought to Wallachia/Moldavia (now principalities of Romania) and other countries AS SLAVES. Worse, Romani remained in servitude, as slaves, up until 1864 in Romania (Their freedom was legalized in 1856, but remained as slaves until 1864). In the same year, the Emancipation Proclamation was posed in the United States. In 1865, one year after Romani were truly freed from slavery in Romania, African Americans were truly freed from slavery in the United States.

(An 1852 Wallachian poster
advertising an auction of
Roma slaves in Bucharest)

Holocaust
SS Commander Harald Turner, head of the German administration, stated that "(…)Serbia is (the)only country that has solved (the)problem of the Jews and gypsies".

The murdering of Jews was referred to as antisemitism; the murdering of Romani was referred to as antiziganism. The official title is Porajmos. In 1935, the Nuremburg Laws were imposed in Germany, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, and Croatia, which stripped Romani and Jews of citizenship, stating they were "enemies of the race-based state." This was followed shortly thereafter with concentration camps and extermination. It is estimated 500,000 to 1,500,000 Romani were "exterminated." In fact, the extermination was so thorough, almost all Romani were killed in the Baltic states and Croatia, resulting in the Bohemian Romani language becoming a dead language (nobody alive to speak it).

It should be presented that the Romani and Jews were the ONLY populations specifically targeted for extermination in the Final Solution. If you're not familiar with the Final Solution, it was the Nazi euphemism referring to their extermination plans for Jews.

Timeline
Now, one of the reasons I found myself unwilling to discuss this further was because of the tremendous amount of information I encountered on Romani. To put it bluntly, there's a buttload (read links below). The fact the arguments here seemed oblivious to all that information, presented a daunting task for me; how could I bring all this information to your attentions without sounding trite, dismissive, or imposing? After your post, Duduie, it dawned on me. How about a timeline?

Well, a timeline is a lot of work, which I'm not at present inclined to present. Instead I will endeavor to indicate that persecution of Romani is "once again" escalating. It is, in fact, being fueled by Europe's present economic crisis. Dehumanizing the Romani is the mistake being made here. It is this dehumanization that compelled previous generations to persecute, sterilize, and kill. It is dehumanization that fosters generalizations, compartmentalizing of societies, labeling and eventual targeting during hard times.

Fascism is a political movement that gains popularity in times of economic stress. However, it is a dangerous political movement and should be resisted at all costs, as it poses supremacist mentalities that fosters war and encourages hate; not resolving problems but instead finding scapegoats in minorities. Today, the problem is economy. Today, the focus is on Romani.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me. ~Pastor Martin Niemöller

At present, right now, we have France forcibly removing Romani from their country, Italy excusing the burning of Romani encampments and the murder of Romani children. Right now, we have Czech & Slovakia forcibly sterilizing Romani girls, preventing them from procreating. Right now, we have Romani being blamed for crimes they did not commit, ostracized for living in isolation, despite not being welcomed anywhere. Right now, we have people claiming Romani are kidnapping and prostituting their children, when it is in fact NON-Romani who are kidnapping and prostituting Romani children. Right now, we have over 90% of Romani being denied employment in normal work. Right now, Romani are being forcibly segregated in schools, posed in "special education" alongside the mentally disabled.

Right now, in Ireland, we have teenagers assaulting Romani (note the baby):

DeletedUser · Sep 30, 2011

As I said above I say it again: They were never the PRIMARY target of oppression. Romania already had slaves (the poor), the gypsies just added to that. When a slave was freed by the master, he was gaining the name "Romanian". Believe it or not, many countries in this world used slaves. But the gypsies were not constituting all the slaves in Romania, nor were all gypsies slaves, nor were all the gypsies in Romania brought in as slaves. Many of them lived freely hiding in the mountains, hunting animals and robbing anybody who passed by.
Again, Holocaust is a totally different subject and had as primary target the jew community. It is obvious that the numbers are exaggerated (or there wouldn't be so many of them still around today) and no, their language is totally not dead.

PS: There is no Czechoslovakia (there's Czech Republic and Slovakia) thus your "right now" thingy is outdated.

DeletedUser · Sep 30, 2011

Although gypsies weren't all the slaves in Romania, they were by far the bulk of them. It should be noted that all gypsies were either enslaved or indentured in Romania. So while you can argue not all slaves were gypsies, all gypsies were slaves. As in the argument you can find in the Southern U.S., where not all slaves were black, but all blacks were slaves (again, a dangerous generalization, but nonetheless just as apt).

As to the Holocaust, they were primary. Trying to use the title of "primary" as a weasel-around is disingenuous because they were "specifically targeted," along with Jews. They were specifically mentioned in the Nuremburg Laws, the only other group specifically mentioned being Jews. I.e., they shared "primary" status with the Jews. In fact, by percentage of group alone, a greater percentage of Romani were killed than Jews.

You are confusing size of group with primary targeting. Just because there were more Jews does not diminish the fact Romani were equally targeted, equally addressed, equally discriminated against, more than equally exterminated.

As to the Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic / Slovakia), I didn't bother to split them to their respective names. However, most of the articles and videos do. My giving it a broad-sweeping name doesn't dismiss the "right now" of the articles and videos, it just demonstrates I was being somewhat dismissive of the constantly fragmenting nations in Eastern Europe.

To be honest, Duduie, you're trying to play on semantics and posing a bit of trickery with your rebuttal. "Primary," Czech vs Czech/Slovak, "not all slaves were...," etc. I am firmly done. Enjoy your continued debate in an effort to deny the obvious.

DeletedUser · Sep 30, 2011

Ha, nope, not all the gypsies were slaves, that's for sure. And is Jews and Romani, not Romani and Jews (who likes to play on semantics there?!). If Jews weren't to be targeted, Romani weren't gonna be either. They threw in Romani too in order to justify the "pure race" argument used to exterminate Jews.
As for the "right nows" they are the actions taken by people and countries against the "current situation" which is undeniable. You can't blame people for becoming aggressive against an aggressor. Including the current situation to explain their past and what determined their current situation is a complete mistake on your behalf anyway. I never denied that countries started taking action against them, never denied people hate them for what they've become. We were discussing past actions, gypsy history that might have determined their fate, might have made them become what they are today. You claim is discrimination and persecution that happened in the past. But use the "right nows" as proof?! :no:

DeletedUser · Sep 30, 2011

Hi Duduie, I provided plenty of links, to articles and videos. Please review them. You'll see Romani have suffered through hundreds of years of oppression.

Duduie said:
Ha, nope, not all the gypsies were slaves, that's for sure.

In the latter 1700's and early 1800's a small section of the native Roma population managed to evade slavery (most commonly by being runaways or descendants of runaways). They lived in isolation on the margin of society and tended to settle in places where access was a problem. Around 1830, they became the target of regular manhunts, those captured being turned into slaves and/or returned to slavery. ~ (interpreted from Neagu Djuvara's works, Romanian historian)

Regarding the continued denial of Porajmos and pre-ww2 persecution - http://www.holocaust-trc.org/sinti.htm and http://www.radoc.net/radoc.php?doc=art_e_holocaust_porrajmos&lang=en&articles=true

As I said, I'm done. Anything further I can present will merely be a repeat of my earlier post or an excerpt from one of the links I provided (as is the case here).

DeletedUser16008 · Oct 20, 2011

You may want to watch this Hells it might open your eyes a bit...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0169lg6/Panorama_Britains_Child_Beggars/

I call that slavery and taking complete advantage of everything possible ... one word ... scum

DeletedUser · Oct 20, 2011

Victor, you seem to think I'm ignorant of this. The group of gangsters living in Tanderei are not the totality of Romani. If such were the case, Romani would be living in splendor everywhere. But they don't. This gang of Romani (and non-Romani btw) are criminals being deported and prosecuted in UK, with full cooperation from Romania. They, however, do not constitute even a fraction of Romani.

The gang of Bloods, and the gang of Crips, in the U.S. do not constitute African Americans. It is, however, quite typical for racists to generalize and stereotype based on the gang affiliations of some African Americans.

Here, let me open your eyes a bit...

Senegal
http://www.miller-mccune.com/culture-society/protecting-the-child-beggars-of-senegal-27794/

China
http://chinageeks.org/2011/02/child-beggars-and-a-revolution-of-digital-conscience/

Bangladesh
http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/04/gang-profits-from-maimed-child-beggars/

India
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEjR0GqKIGg

Everywhere
http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/318

Child trafficking, forced begging, is happening everywhere and is being committed by groups from every race and nationality. It is a man with blinders who sees only one race and stereotypes that race as the culprit in a global, and racially transparent, problem. You cannot resolve the problem of child exploitation by targeting a particular race, you have to target the criminals who commit the crimes.

That doesn't mean you can't make criminals out of people. By turning race into outcasts, you force them to survive by any means necessary. Eventually they may very well learn to thrive by any means necessary. Racism is merely another crime, one of dehumanization for convenience of conscience. It doesn't address the problems, it creates new problems by failing to address the real problems. It's an expression of hate, a release of emotion to target blame on something concrete. Why? Because the real problems are not concrete. Just as in the case with 98% of sex offenders being family/friend, so too is the persecution of all one-time, or falsely convicted, sex offenders merely creating new problems by not addressing the real problems and instead creating outcasts.

The criminal isn't black, white, slant-eyed, or brown. He doesn't have a physical, social, or cultural characteristic that differentiates him or her from others. The criminal is a criminal and may very well be your brother-in-law.

DeletedUser16008 · Oct 20, 2011

Far from calling you ignorant on the matter just that its current on our TV here atm and the problem its highlighting i thought would be of interest

I hate to say it but its true that certain groups or cultures may have more tendency to a particular way of life, criminal activity included ( the law varies and changes remember ) and all other differences you consider unacceptable. Including child workers, slavery, marriages etc etc

I consider myself a humanitarian but not to the point that i actually believe that im a saint. In fact every single person is Racist or Judgmental in their own way or guilty of some form of ism at times, including you and I. Its impossible not to be so sometimes... Its not a perfect world as you well know but in the countries where there is law they need to be made to follow it, get the heck out or be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.

The criminal is a criminal just and only because the law says so, nothing more. The law changes and suddenly hes a law abiding citizen, fact of the matter is there is the criminal and then theres the social criminal. Some are both but to pretend certain groups or areas or whatever word you want to give them don't exist or do not have very high % or bent towards the criminal behavior within their own circle as socially acceptable is just not true...

Your saying all groups are guilty and thats correct, im saying that some groups do it a lot more than others as a % and thats also true. Where a group is smaller you eventually come up with a cultural trait if enough practice along the same lines faster than a large group obviously.

PS I dont have a brother in law but if I did it would mean my Brother was Gay lol funny thought if you knew my brother.....

DeletedUser · Oct 20, 2011

I do agree with your above point Hellstromm, I just wish to add something that some people (mostly humanitarians) do not wish to accept as fact.
As I mentioned before, the current situation of gypsies was not caused by racism, or racism alone. It was caused by the pressure of communism. And even though every person in Romania was treated the same way (whether white, jew, gypsy, hungarian, german, aromanian, you name it), no other race/group/minority developed the same way gypsies did. What happened there was: they were trying to regain their "freedom" (as everybody else was), the only difference is that gypsies wanted back their right to "no work". During communism and after, gypsies started migrating to Western countries seeking asylum, but refusing to work to make a living. So they started what is going on at such a larger scale today. The word about their fortune spread and now most gypsies (or should I say "registered gypsies") lead this kind of life. Note, it was not racism or racism alone that pushed them to this. And you cannot blame it on communism, because the rest of us did not go in the same direction. They could not be forced to integrate into society, because they do not want/like to work and this is the outcome.

DeletedUser · Oct 20, 2011

Victor Kruger said:
I hate to say it but... [...] socially acceptable is just not true...

Wow, I don't even need to respond to that post, but what the hell.

You just whitewashed racism as acceptable, claimed crime is relative, affirmed humanitarianism to be a character flaw and, finally, you completely ignored everything I said in my earlier post <click here>, instead jumping to generalizations and gross assumptions.

Good job Victor, you just demonstrated you're suffering from blinders' syndrome.

Duduie said:
[...]they do not want/like to work and this is the outcome.

You are making a gross assumption. It's pretty safe to say the vast majority of people in this world "do not want/like to work." You're grabbing a common facet of all Man and trying to distort it into an inference that Romani don't work because they don't want/like to work, completely dismissing the fact they are not provided equal education and are routinely denied employment.

This really is getting old Duduie

DeletedUser · Oct 20, 2011

Education for their children is free. In Romania people pay for public education by paying taxes imposed on their salaries. Since they do not work, they do not pay for education, but even so, their children are ACCEPTED in any public school their parents chose to send them to. Yet they don't. You want the police to come drive them to school or something?
No education = no job skills. But they do not need any skills in construction and a pretty high percentage of non-skilled workers in Romania, mainly in the Construction industry are gypsies (the ones who do want to work and lead a normal life). And as I keep pointing out, businesses get state grants for hiring gypsies, so this causes the so called "positive discrimination". I keep repeating myself about this, but you don't seem to take it into consideration, no mater how many times I make this point.

PS: I consider your reply to be the typical undocumented humanitarian canned response when it comes to a minority.

DeletedUser16008 · Oct 20, 2011

Yeaa ok m8 you keep on cherry picking words and trying to make me seem what im not & ill keep on ignoring posts that dont prove a thing about anything.

Its persecution as far as you concerned and in this case i say its self reinforced and invited, specifically to use as a shield behind which they often hide to continue the exploitation ...

You can champion it all you wish m8 maybe adopt or send some money over to help their cause. Me ill just say what i see and not pretend theres an excuse for everything ....

DeletedUser · Oct 21, 2011

Victor, I didn't merely write a detailed post, I provided link after link of supporting (not anecdotal) evidence, many of which provide links of their own, and other supporting attribution. In rebuttal, I am provided anecdotal evidence which is then haphazardly tied to sweeping generalizations, which serves merely as demonstrations of classic racism/prejudice.

But, that's okay. I know how deeply rooted, how heavily invested people become to thier race/culture-based class systems. I'm not trying to change your minds, I would say it's close to impossible once you drank the Koolaid. Nope, I'm just allowing the readers to see the evidence so they can come to the logical conclusion (as opposed to the emotional, and thus erroneous, conclusion).

Antiziganism

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