Antiziganism

DeletedUser

"Antiziganism is hostility, prejudice or racism directed at the Romani people, also known as Gypsies. As an endogamous culture with a tendency to practise self-segregation, the Romanis have generally resisted assimilation with the indigenous communities of whichever countries they have moved to; they have thus successfully preserved their distinctive and unique culture. The price of this cultural longevity, however, has been a degree of isolation from the surrounding population that has made them vulnerable to being stereotyped as thieves, tramps, con men and fortune tellers. Due in part to this same cultural segregation, the Romanis have been subject to various forms of discrimination throughout history and in nearly all the countries in which they have settled." ~Wikipedia

Discuss...
 

DeletedUser

If you look at the sources used to put that article together, you will see a lot of "humanitarian" ones. Which is the actual problem. To get to the reality of this, one handful of humanitarians need to go under cover and live among them, to know the truth. They need to interview the Romanis who deny their ethnicity, the ones who integrated in the society and send their children to public schools, while they maintain their legal jobs.
As I mentioned before, there are Romanis who maintain their traditions and lifestyle. And even though economically they are an issue, Romanian people do not have a problem with them. I know personally families of gypsies who make their living by trading. While they do not pay any kind of taxes to the state, they benefit from medical treatment for free, they can send their children to public schools for free, they receive social support paid by Romanians and so on. Nevertheless, they are our neighbors and we have no issue with their lifestyle, as long as they live "lawfully".
The state offers grants to businesses hiring gypsies. This causes what you all know by "positive discrimination". We want them to work, we want them to integrate into our society and be lawful citizens, but the majority of gypsies do not want to legally work. This pushes them to the extremes, becoming beggars, thieves, con men and fortune tellers. If you search "vrajitoare" on google (which is "witch" in romanian) all the results will take you to websites and blogs of gyspy women calling themselves witches. I don't find a non-gypsy one. (example: http://vrajitoare.eu/index.php/lista-vrajitoarelor ). They make good business off of naive people, who believe in them. You think they pay taxes? LOL ... When Romanian authorities presented the desire to put taxes on their business (sometime last year), they all revolted. It was all over the news all over the world. Do you think they should pay taxes? Hell yeah, just like prostitutes.
Did you know that throughout Europe, countries started "legally" taking measures against Romanian citizens, due to all the crimes committed by gypsies in those territories? They called the entire Romanian nation "gypsies, gypsies", while Romanis are still a minority in our country. When Romania became part of the European Union (EU), Romanians were free to travel in all EU countries, with only one simple Romanian ID. Romanis have the same type of ID just like Romanians. Their ethnicity is not mentioned on their ID. Many Romanians went to other countries for jobs and maybe a better life. But gypsies ruined that. Many Romanians throughout Europe returned, because life there became impossible. No, this is no speculation, this is not stereotyping. This is the reality. I am not saying that Romanians are perfect and I am not saying that all gypsies are bad. But everything that happened in other EU countries to turn them against us was due to Romanis. Of course the Romanian authorities tried to clear out our country's name and we made pretty good progress. They wanted us out of EU, but we are still in. In exchange, measures against Romanis started. Such as this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2200020/Italy-to-fingerprint-all-Roma-gipsy-children.html
Of course the humanitarian orgs will try to pin their behavior on us, saying we "pushed" them to crime, or that we stereotype them. But that is far from truth. Did you know that only 60% of Romanian gypsies speak Romanian? That means that at least 40% of them did not go to school. 40% of them do not (will not) have a job. 40% of them have to make a living in any other way except maintaining a job and interacting with Romanians.
Not to mention that many of those who do have a job and go to school do not declare their ethnicity during censuses.
 
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DeletedUser

First of all I refuse to call them romani.
What duduie said is true. Few of them know how to read. But the fact is that the 60% that do know... don't know much else. They barely go to school and when they go do anything but learning. Now I'm not saying that there are no exceptions. There are some that are hardworking and willing to educate. Or at least that's what people say... I've never actualy met an honest gypsie.
Almost the only interaction that the western europe has with gypsie is with the poor ones that beg and steal. At the other end there are the ones that spend millions of euros on cars, houses(palaces actualy) and weddings. Where do they have the money? Well begging and stealing.
Some of their houses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d2lr-pLFio
None of those houses was built with honest money. They don't pay taxes for them. Mind you, most of them don't even have running water of electricity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikvBMNQzQF4
a wedding. The fat bald one gives money the one standing to sing(they're actualy dedications). He gives him a lot of money. These people can make up to 10.000 euros per wedding. And no, they don't pay taxes.
How many romanian people aford to do that? a lot less...
They don't do a single honest work and then they call discrimination.
I am not racist. I have nothing with black people asian, hebrew... you name them. I don't even mind if they are gypsies. If I even meet an honest one that when you pass him on the street doesn't look at you like he's preparing to spit at you I will welcome him into my home.
I am not speaking as a racist person but as one that is sick and tired of their acts. I have no respect for them.
The romanian people - gypsie relationship isn't hate-hate. Most of the times it's fear-hate.

this was hillarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUSrqkUdfgA
 
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DeletedUser

I think is easy to point the finger when you come from the outside and look at the situation through humanitarian eyes. I can totally understand how they reached such conclusions. But facts are facts. When other countries had to face them, what they did was: send them back. French authorities paid gypsies 300 EUROS per adult and 100 EUROS per child for them to return voluntarily in Romania and Bulgaria. Because it is against the law and their rights to force them to go back, they had to pay gypsies to go back. Why do you think they wanted them gone? Cause they are such a "nice" community to live with? We do not outcast them due to their culture and traditions. They are a real issue that nobody wants to deal with, because there's no real humanitarian solution to this issue and the world we live in would not allow a non-humanitarian solution to be imposed.
 

DeletedUser9470

What turda says is pretty true.
The problem isnt a racist issu, it is about criminals.

for example Dale Farm: The issues raised by the Dale Farm eviction aren’t complicated. Indeed, they are alarmingly simple. Is there, or is there not, equality under the law in the uk?
The inhabitants of the farm own the land. They do not, however, have planning permission to build on it. Basildon Council is seeking to enforce the law, as it has a statutory duty to do.
There have been numerous allegations that the enforcement is in some measure racist – that the travellers, as it is now politically correct to call the people who don’t travel anywhere, but live on Dale Farm, are being targeted because they are from an ethnic minority.

And suddenly people who just haven't got a clue like HS are crying a breach of human rights, racism BS and comparing UK to Zimbabwe and China.

When investigations are carried out we find out most of these travellers own houses in Ireland and are thus only in the uk to claim benefits as they are too lazy to work.

Also, turns out these travellers have a legal site they can move to just down the road from dale farm.

Stuff your racism comment HS, I have members of my family who are travellers, and I know they are criminals. they get away with it because of crap BS legislation mostly imposed by EU and because of people like you who cant see the forest for the trees.

put it this way HS:
If I came round with my caravan, made myself a space on your front lawn, invited another 50 families to come take a pew too, and then started building my own house there, and then turned round to you, stuck my middle finger up at you and shouted "sit on my Human rights, P*&%k! what? youve been burgled! nothing to do with us! you like my sony tv? its the same you used to have!!! yer go tell someone who cares before I beat you up."
I am sure you would change your mind on your BS Human rights philosophy.
If you deny this, give me your address.
 

DeletedUser

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuRMmSjarl4&feature=related

Romanian gypsies stealing (video from a security camera in a store, Spain):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR6D01lY8FA&feature=related

Gypsy women fighting about the "begging" spot in Milano:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF6JrnwH0a4&feature=related

Gypsy minor presenting his merchandise for sale that he says he stole himself in Spain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PeMTeUGZR8&feature=related

5 gypsy women stealing clothing in a store (and the clerks money and cellphone)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLvzJXfR95c&feature=related

Part 1/6 of a documentary made about gypsies (this is how they chose to live and what they teach their children life is):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6B8zDpAE0w

Remember: they can have a normal job, clean house and education in Romania, but this is how they CHOSE TO live.

PS: Can you still say we stereotype them?
 
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DeletedUser

One could say the stereotyping makes it easier for them to engage in criminal activities, thus reinforcing that sterotype. A vicious cycle, yes? No, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, so don't get on my case. Just saying that what may have started out as something small however long ago has become the problem we see today.
 

DeletedUser

Did you watch the documentary?
While you are giving me examples of isolated cases, the documentary presents what is the common lifestyle of gypsies abroad. This is why Italy, France and Spain wants them to go back to Romania. This is what they used to do in Romania before they migrated. This is how they CHOSE TO live, this is why they do not want jobs. In the first video you can see the houses they build in Romania with the money stolen all over Europe. These are not isolated cases. The percentage of gypsies leading this lifestyle is overwhelming. You cannot compare. I wish I could find statistics, but is nearly impossible. I wish I could see the % of gypsies stealing, related to their entire population, compared to others. And then see what you say.

PS: Please listen to what the Deputy Mayor of Milan says (min 6:50): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yy3aSjth5w&feature=related
(outcast Romania would mean discrimination against Romanians all due to gypsies ... how would you feel if your country would be outcast due to a minority?)

PS2: 1 family accepted social services help after their camp was destroyed in Italy. Why? Because they would have to accept certain rules such as: send your kids to school. But yeah, we are stereotyping and racists for trying to help them LOL.

PS3: The end of the last part of the documentary is the most funny. A gypsy who made his fortune stealing (and has huge houses he calls palaces), who comes from at least 3 generations of thieves, asks all gypsies to stop doing what they do, or the world will soon have enough of them and they will have nowhere else to go. He says that stealing to make ends meet is acceptable, but stealing to live in palaces is not. I cannot stop laughing ... how ironic.
 
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DeletedUser

No no, is a valid point and I can see why coming from the outside and looking upon their situation is easy to point fingers and feel pity for them. One interested in the subject, can make some extensive research and find out what is actually going on. Now that the entire Europe knows what Romania has been dealing with for centuries, now that the entire world can see the Western European countries reactions to this issue, maybe (I am hoping that maybe) it will open their eyes and see who's really discriminated, who's really the "bad guy" here.
 

DeletedUser16628

Please continue,I find this to be a very complicated issue worth discussing further.
 

DeletedUser16008

lol unfortunately Duduie has far more true perspective on gypsies than others here, my personal experience is they are mostly just a bunch of thieves, cultural background is based on stealing and living off others slow wit or turning a quick buck, any means required employed and indeed encouraged and applauded, the more guile and deceit the more standing and respect within their own community...

Ask nearly any Romanian and they will back Duduie up, certainly all the ones I know both in my country and Romania that I have met.
 

DeletedUser

I hope I was not misinterpreted, I didn't mean to say they are thieves ever since they migrated to Eastern Europe, but their lifestyle back then lead to what they are today. They liked living freely, moving from one place to another, not being bound by anything or anybody. Illegality was in their spirit, in their blood so to speak, but not at the magnitude that it is today. They had to make a living in ways that did not include holding a job or working the land. They lived in wagons and tee-pees, they moved a lot and they were good copper-smiths and traders. Some women called themselves fortune tellers (or witches) and made nice money off people who believed in them. There are even Romanian songs about gypsies and their lifestyle (how they used to be back in the day), that depict them pretty well. There are movies (some in gypsy) about their old lifestyle too. But that changed. I guess one of the hardest time they had was under communism, because they had to work or they would go to prison. It was a condition for everybody, not just for gypsies. You'd say that was good, so we thought! But that didn't have the effect everybody was hoping for. I guess the desired effect was that they will finally integrate into our society. What actually happened was: some sneaked out of the country searching for asylum in Western Countries that were anti-communism. There, they started stealing and begging. The business flourished, when they could finally come home (after dec 22 '89), they build nice big houses with the money they got and the rumor spread out. More and more gypsies went abroad to do the same thing. It didn't become such a big problem until after Romania became part of the EU. When the customs opened their gates, hundreds of them went West. And what you saw in that documentary is what they do. Yes, they exploit their own children, the kids learn the lifestyle and do the same thing to their children. They kidnap our children to exploit them. Not many of them accept social services help and the ones that do, many times get thrown out because they cannot stop exploiting their children. They get food, shelter, education, work skills training, but they still send their children to beg. Why? Is beyond me, I cannot understand them. We cannot help them if they do not want to be helped. They don't have pity for us, but expect pity from us. They have no conscience or respect, but demand respect from us. They want help only on their terms, they don't want to work. The ones who want to work, they do have jobs, real jobs. The ones who want their kids to have an education, they send their children to school. There's no real solution to their situation. And they are multiplying fast! By mid thirties, a gypsy woman would have at least 5 children if she is healthy and would already be a grandma'.
And as I mentioned already, there are those who work, who usually do not declare their ethnicity during censuses (thus very few gypsies are registered as working). There are those who lead a normal life by trading (though not a legal paying taxes job, nonetheless a continuation of their traditions that we respect). There are those who are in the business of fortune telling and even though they are very prosperous, they deny being subject to taxes (again, not such a big issue, they've been doing this ever since they migrated to our country). There are those who represent them politically and have salaries paid by taxpayers. There's their king, who I have no idea how he makes his money, how he is elected and how that works out for them. And there are those who live at the margins of our society, together with white folks who are poor and barely make ends meet. But the majority of them are involved in this "business" of begging/stealing and loan sharking, which is cruel, but nonetheless the reality and I don't think anybody can point their fingers at us and say that we pushed them towards that. Communism was hard for everybody, but you don't see our white folks living in campgrounds, stealing from westerners and exploiting their children. And they were subject to the same exact rules as the gypsies were.
 
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DeletedUser16628

In todays world I find this amazing that this type of behavior is tolerated.It seems so ingrained into society there that it's an allowed way of life so to speak.I in all my travels have not really ever come into contact with any of these people except maybe a carnival.They seem to prefer living on the outskirts of society as it allows them access to make their living not out in plain view.Not making any judgements here just really interested in how it's allowed to continue.
 

DeletedUser

Allowed to continue?

Which part, the widescale racism or the widescale persecution?
 

DeletedUser9470

for sure these sedentary travellers have always been persecuted due to certain stereotypes.
but if they are evicted where the heck are they going to stash all of their stolen goods???
 

DeletedUser

Allowed to continue?

Which part, the widescale racism or the widescale persecution?

Got something to back that opinion up? Is more humanitarian to see them as oppressed instead of seeing them for the heartless thieves they are? Get out of that bubble.
 

DeletedUser

Why does a person steal? There are three main reasons.

1, profit
2, survival
3, because you can

Profit is fairly self explanatory.
Survival is trickier. What if a group of people is already categorized as a bad group of people who are known to steal? Regardless of who someone is as an individual is it ok to say that they are thieves? So now you have a group of people who value their heritage but to do so means you also have to be considered a thief because one time back in the day great grampa stole something from a richer guy.
Now, since the whole group of people are considered to be thieves what kind of job outlook options do you think are available to this group of people? So now you have created a situation where some people actually have to steal in order to feed their family. If you keep on claiming they are thieves then you will inevitably create a whole class of thieves. Good going.
 

DeletedUser

Iggy, did you watch the documentary? It is recent, it is going on now. It is a current situation, not an old one. It has never been as bad as it is now. If you watch you will be amazed. Over 200 families living at the outskirts of Madrid (Spain). Over 500 children in that camp. The ones who are of age (old enough to steal and beg - under 14, because at 14 and over the laws are more hard on them) go to Madrid every day and rob people. You can see on the video 8 year olds trying to steal an adult's money at the ATM. And is not an isolated case. Big camps like the one near Madrid are near every big European city. We are talking about thousands and thousands of gypsies all over Europe, earning their living by stealing. In the documentary the emphasis is on the children. They exploit their children because the laws are easy on them. Basically, if they get caught, in a matter of a few days they are back on the street stealing again. When they are offered social support they turn their backs and scatter. So it is not about heritage or stereotyping.

Why do they steal?

3) Because they can! Because is easier than working ...
 
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