Abortion

[DeletedUser]

I think that what he's saying is that slaves were not considered to be "human" in the full sense back then, just like a fetus isn't considered to be one now. The implication is that some day a fetus may be protected by the constitution, just like ex-slaves were once they were emancipated.

I know you are trying to get this back on topic! :laugh:

I see exactly what you are saying, but that is not what Gizmo was saying. It may have been what he was TRYING to say, but I think he was intentionally being vague because he DOESN'T KNOW what he is saying and refuses to stand corrected.

He has no valid point or argument, he is just playing devil's advocate here and likely falls into the "I feel bad for fetuses" category and genuinely believes that "abortions should be illegal because they are wrong." As a result you get a constantly shifting point of view that can't be taken seriously.

He was comparing African Americans during the civil rights movement to the fetus, which I think is absurd. He failed miserably to make a comparison. He changed his argument after I made a series of valid points, with out recognizing any of what I said. He preferred to debate the time period of the Black Civil Rights movement instead of stick to his original point, and got the thread off-topic. The obvious comparison he could have made was that the slaves were considered "property" just as the fetus is "property" of the woman. Which means they have no rights and we are further backing up my argument. But no, he didn't do that. He is arguing the opposite- that a fetus should have rights and his reason has something to do with the 13th and 14th amendments, which is INSANE.

Someday a fetus MAY be granted citizenship via amendment. I agree that it could happen. Personally, I hope it does not because I think it's an absurd idea. I realize many people think its a wonderful idea. Rather than make this hypothetical, I'd rather keep it practical.

My argument is still this:

We should worry about those who ARE protected right now by law. Which, in the case of this discussion, means a woman and the right she has over her own body. A fetus is NOT a citizen and therefore does not have these same rights. Period.

 

[DeletedUser14029]

Then consider yourself lucky.



So once again someone is attempting to use the few to describe the many.

Surely a program of teaching people about contraception and the issues surrounding pregnancy and mother/fatherhood is more effective then forcing people to live in misery and poverty?

Or would you like to see people suffer in that sort of state, simply to teach them a lesson?

You didn't actually answer my question though, have you ever spoken to them or are you simply making assumptions for what you have seen and read?

And don't be stupid, loosing a child and having an abortion are two completely different things with completely different mental issues.

To what Mr. Samus had said (assuming he's a 'he'), having your leg sawed off by a saw, or accidents are, well, ACCIDENTS. a few posts ago and I don't want to waste my time. check for it yourself

having sex means you consent to such a thing, therefore you must bear the consequences. it staggers me how you fail to understand so simple a theory. and i am not 'lucky', because I CHOOSE not to do so stupid a thing. 'LUCKY' implies I did have sex and luckily didn't get pregnant, which I will like to express that I have NOT done THAT because of my CHOICE.

I agree (I don't remember disagreeing on that... but it seems like you're quite down on passing abortion and make it another way of contraception, I understand how you feel ) that educating about contraception is best. Meanwhile, let's make casual sex a past tense. but what's done is done. You had sex, you got pregnant, then deal with the consequences. Not go to the clinics, kill the fetus, then be done with it.

and (interested readers can go back a bit to view his post) what you said was do I understand the grief of mothers that underwent abortion - which is, to lose a child then later regret it bitterly. My aunt lost a child during pregnancy then never got around to be pregnant again. So what's the difference in magnitude? hmm? simply saying that 'oh kid you're 16 you don't understand about it it's man's business (opps forgot you're a male)' won't work.

I will rather be speaking with J412 than to a 'raging bull' that quotes things blindly then proclaim victory and nonsense of the others. Funny you don't read what I have written. Stop wasting my time and make some sense >.<

 

[DeletedUser]

I will rather be speaking with J412 than to a 'raging bull' that quotes things blindly then proclaim victory and nonsense of the others. Funny you don't read what I have written. Stop wasting my time and make some sense >.<

I don't know if this is an insult or an endearing compliment.

 

[DeletedUser]

To what Mr. Samus had said (assuming he's a 'he'), having your leg sawed off by a saw, or accidents are, well, ACCIDENTS. a few posts ago and I don't want to waste my time. check for it yourself

having sex means you consent to such a thing, therefore you must bear the consequences. it staggers me how you fail to understand so simple a theory. and i am not 'lucky', because I CHOOSE not to do so stupid a thing. 'LUCKY' implies I did have sex and luckily didn't get pregnant, which I will like to express that I have NOT done THAT because of my CHOICE.

So what's having sex, using protection and still becoming pregnant? Contraception is not 100% effective therefore there is a risk that you could become pregnant exactly the same as there is a risk you could chop your leg off.

You are talking sensible precautions but accidents still happen. Therefore the question stands.

I agree (I don't remember disagreeing on that... but it seems like you're quite down on passing abortion and make it another way of contraception, I understand how you feel ) that educating about contraception is best. Meanwhile, let's make casual sex a past tense. but what's done is done. You had sex, you got pregnant, then deal with the consequences. Not go to the clinics, kill the fetus, then be done with it.

Excuse me? I have said I do not see abortion as being simply another form of contraception. It is a last resort for a number of situations.

You youself state that you have never been in that situation therefore how can you know what happens?

It's not simply a case of you go to the hospital or abortion clinic and then it's wham bam thank you ma'am. At least here in the UK it isn't there are a number of interviews with nurses and a final consultation with a Doctor who has to be happy with your reasons for having an abortion.

Again the consequences come back to the first part of the post. If the pregnancy occurs even with reasonable precautions being taken then it is an accident or do you think that people should only have sex if they want to create a baby? Do you not think people should have sex for pleasure? Regardless of wether they are in a relationship or not?

and (interested readers can go back a bit to view his post) what you said was do I understand the grief of mothers that underwent abortion - which is, to lose a child then later regret it bitterly. My aunt lost a child during pregnancy then never got around to be pregnant again. So what's the difference in magnitude? hmm? simply saying that 'oh kid you're 16 you don't understand about it it's man's business (opps forgot you're a male)' won't work.

Again I will tell you there is a big difference between having an abortion and suffering a miscarriage. You do not seem to understand that difference which leads me to believe that you have never spoken to anyone that has had either occur. Have you ever actually spoken to her about how she felt about the miscarriage? And once again have you ever spoken to someone who has had an abortion about how they felt?

It is not a case of regreting things later. Not everyone simply goes "right I'm pregnant. I'll have an abortion" There are a number of issues that you have to deal with at the time. Do not presume to lecture me on the feelings of people who have an abortion when you have never been there.

I didn't raise the issue of age or male/female. You have. I simply am pointing out that you are stating your views without actually having spoken to anyone about the issues at hand or having undergone them first hand.

Please therefore refrain from attempting to make me out to be a sexist when I have not made any comments of the sort.

I will rather be speaking with J412 than to a 'raging bull' that quotes things blindly then proclaim victory and nonsense of the others. Funny you don't read what I have written. Stop wasting my time and make some sense >.<

I would rather be debating with someone that doesn't preach from ignorance and accuse people of things out of the blue, but meh, I make do don't I?

 

[DeletedUser14029]

Contraception is indeed not 100% effective.
IF both parties agree on not having more children, then have their sperm duct/ovary duct cut and tied (safest method) but STILL managed to get pregnant . . . well, hard luck. Not really a reason, as I have stated, to have an abortion. (don't tell me you will be glad when your company fires you immediately after hiring you because of some sudden financial crisis)

that's why I prefer Christian-value-based society. Having sex just for pleasure with many different parties can create a lot social problems. While restricted to your married partner only, my above statement stands.

Earlier in this thread people have suggested legalising Abortion and to make it easily obtainable. In the place I live in, Abortion is BANNED, for serious reasons like a baby with Down Syndrome, handicapped etc, must have a meeting with doctors and all that. So when someone talked of legalising Abortion I easily linked it up with really casual Abortion (one of the reasons why Abortion is still banned in my place: too easy for young couples to use it as a mean of contraception)

how does it feel to have a miscarriage? Sad. but when I get to talk to her it's already over 20 years ago for her. Is she still supposed to get too emotional? She love kids as a result of a miscarriage and no pregnancy in compensation for her own. That's why I see. I can only hope I won't feel any of the two options.
and like I said, man, the reason I am against Abortion in the first place is associated with teenagers that didn't think all too clearly before having unprotected sex. and believe me, I have read the news about teenage girls rushing off to get illegal pills to kill their babies then throw them away in some out-of-sight areas. by ALLOWING easy Abortion this is not going to decrease. Better still keep it banned and do some proper EDUCATION. Also, Government advertisements on TV often show realistic enough cases where mothers, teenage mums in particular, felt very sorry for having an abortion earlier. These things are even in my Religious Studies syllabus.

Note: I come from Hong Kong, China. The Social Welfare System, Health Care and all that are different from that of mainland China. My view that might sound alien to you, but every kid that a mother has to take care the Government will provide for, with proper education. May I stress again Abortion is not common in Hong Kong. It's banned, except for serious reasons mentioned above. That's why we still have 18-year-old mums. But at least that's better than 18-year-old ex-mums and an ex-fetus.

 

[DeletedUser]

the reason I am against Abortion in the first place is associated with teenagers that didn't think all too clearly before having unprotected sex.

I understand that this is why you are against abortion, and you are entitled to your belief...but is it reason enough to be in favor of laws that restrict a woman's freedom?
Plus, its not your responsibility OR concern what other teenagers choose to do. You have to understand that at 16 years old, your world view is VERY small. What you learn in school is not how reality works outside of that building. In life, not everyone is sitting in their chairs, listening to the teacher, and diligently taking notes. Some people do what they want regardless of the stakes, even if it is "irresponsible" by your standards. The way you feel now about most things in your life I guarantee will change when you start meeting different people from different places and your life changes as well.

May I stress again Abortion is not common in Hong Kong. It's banned, except for serious reasons mentioned above.

What makes you think its not common? Just because its "banned?" If it is so difficult for women in your country to have an abortion, what makes you think they are not doing it some place else where they wont be scrutinized (or ostracised) for it? Hong Kong is a boat ride away from China/Macau and $40 flight to the Philippines/Vietnam/Thailand where a doctor will do anything for the right price.

Living in Asia for 2 1/2 years, I have to make a sweeping generalization. Sex is more reckless and done with less caution here than in the United States from my experiences. I have been to 9 countries in those 2 1/2 years and see a recurring theme. Sex is casual to the point of carelessness. There are many reasons for this that I wont get into, but here are some examples of what I mean. I wont name country names but let me give you the overall big picture:

Prostitution is done more openly than in the USA, and this includes the "richer" more developed places. Even though it is illegal in most places, it is simply not enforced because it is part of a way of life. There is less shame associated with being a prostitute in some places compared to the USA. I have seen MANY of these girls with kids as well. Talking about abortion in retrospect is pretty difficult to do tastefully, but maybe some of these girls wouldn't be prostitutes had abortion been available at the time they had akid...is that a stretch?

There ARE extremely conservative people here, because of the Muslim influence, but I think that makes things worse in some cases. In some countries (not only Muslim ones), it is frowned upon for a girl to have sex before marriage so she will not use birth control and her boyfriend will not buy condoms (for fear of parents finding out). So they will just have sex and if she gets pregnant, have an abortion. So abortions are done because of the social stigma associated with not being a virgin.

It gets better: There is also a NEW operation that repairs a girls hymen before she gets married so her husband wont know if she had sex before the wedding (this operation is being made ILLEGAL for doctors to perform in China and Muslim countries I believe). Can you believe the trouble women have to go through just to keep their vaginas private?

Plus, I have seen WAY more teenage mothers than I am used to seeing in the United States. It's tough. In a place where sex is talked about openly and there are advertisements for STDs and condoms all over the place (even not speaking the language I can see it everywhere), I don't find that education is the problem.

Asia is VERY much male dominated. Almost everywhere I've been, I see men cheating on their wives sometimes out in the open. I am not used to seeing this in the USA. I am not saying it happens less frequently, but it is not done with out shame and consequences.

I am not surprised that it is lawful in Hong Kong to restrict a woman's personal freedoms. Understand this: You can have your anti-abortion laws and your anti-woman laws. If you are happy, then that's great. But, I don't want Hong Kong's values and laws infiltrating my country's system. Being from the United States, I feel there should be no universal law for women and their reproductive choices. It's a grotesque invasion of privacy and happens to be illegal for my government to do what your country does to women with regard to privacy.

 

[DeletedUser]

She edited her post and included something about social welfare. That needs to be it's own topic, but let me point out she doesn't understand that social welfare is a problem, not a solution.

The very idea that I should pay taxes for someone else's mistakes and financial problems only makes me oppose anti-abortion laws even more.

 

[DeletedUser]

This discussion still comes down to a matter of "choice". A person chooses to have sex or not have sex. A person chooses to use contraception or not use contraception. A person chooses to have an abortion or not have an abortion. I feel as though everyone should have the freedom of choice. As I stated earlier there are good and bad consequences for each choice that is made. Not only in the area of abortion but all other areas to. I like to have that "freedom to choose" and I am willing to accept the consequences of my choices.

As far as the unborn child is concerned. I understand my stance does not take in to consideration a "choice" for the unborn child. However, the unborn child is not "able" to make any choices while in the womb. In addition, because I am a Christian I believe the unborn child will spend eternity with God in heaven if the unborn child is aborted. I must reiterate I can't think of a situation where I would direct someone to have an abortion. I am against the use of abortion for any means but I am for the right to "choose".

 

[DeletedUser14029]

Seems like I confused you again
Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Government, such that our policies and political system and many other things are different from mainland China's.
When I mentioned Social Welfare I meant to point out that financial reasons should not be considered while choosing Abortion, since your children will still be well-taken care of.

Well . . . about failure of education to stop sex before marriage, or cheating on each other, or something like that. A sad note is how people's moral values have fallen. I will not stress again but that's why I think we should NOT make it easily obtainable. or else it will only get worse.

Also, it's a joke how the Americans can marry & divorce as many times as they like... and same as the Japanese, few are virgins during marriage. They have an 'open' mind, sex after parties, as a way of celebration, or (shame)even on Christmas Eve (it's a running joke in Hong Kong how Christmas Eve is the night for teenagers to lose their virginity) - which I will rather be 'conservative' then, if just to be better . . .


First Major Edit:
Personal freedom, I believe, cannot override rules and regulations, and its not unlimited. Whilst it looks like women are deprived of their right to choose to have an abortion, by keeping it (not BANNED, come to think of it. I should perhaps change my phrase to 'under VERY tight regulation and only under abnormal conditions can abortion be carried out') under the current control, teenagers in Hong Kong ARE thinking twice about sex before they have their time. Or at least be bothered to buy a condom. Of course, a bit of research I dig up that also if the girl is raped and got pregnant (didn't know she can/didn't work morning-after pills) she will have the choice of abortion available.

 

[DeletedUser]

This discussion still comes down to a matter of "choice". A person chooses to have sex or not have sex. A person chooses to use contraception or not use contraception. A person chooses to have an abortion or not have an abortion. I feel as though everyone should have the freedom of choice. As I stated earlier there are good and bad consequences for each choice that is made. Not only in the area of abortion but all other areas to. I like to have that "freedom to choose" and I am willing to accept the consequences of my choices.

I like this and agree totally. It would be a very diplomatic conclusion to this thread!

 

[DeletedUser]

When I mentioned Social Welfare I meant to point out that financial reasons should not be considered while choosing Abortion, since your children will still be well-taken care of.

Yes I know. This is exactly what i disagree with. There is no confusion.

A sad note is how people's moral values have fallen.

Aint that the truth. But what makes you think making abortion difficult to access would change how people feel about abortion? It is already illegal in your country and still occurs.

Also, it's a joke how the Americans can marry & divorce as many times as they like.

It's equally shameful how the Christian churches continue to take money to perform this ceremony. They profit very much from this "joke" you are ridiculing. Also I'd like to point out that the 2 countries you name do not have the highest divorce rates. Japan is actually very low.

First Major Edit:
Personal freedom, I believe, cannot override rules and regulations, and its not unlimited. Whilst it looks like women are deprived of their right to choose to have an abortion, by keeping it (not BANNED, come to think of it. I should perhaps change my phrase to 'under VERY tight regulation and only under abnormal conditions can abortion be carried out') under the current control, teenagers in Hong Kong ARE thinking twice about sex before they have their time.

Control is the key word here. And this is where our real disagreement lies. I feel that personal freedom comes before "rules" and regulations. You feel that rules and regulations come first. It's a cultural difference that I wouldn't be able to appreciate unless I lived in Asia. I don't think either one will adopt the others viewpoint but I see crystal clear what is at the heart of your argument and I understand where you are coming from.

But, I think after living for 2 years in America or Canada or Australia you'd be able to understand better where I am coming from on this issue.

Finally after all this conversation and discussion it looks like you do not feel in your heart that abortion is WRONG...you just feel that it is unnecessary in most cases and should be a privileged procedure done only in special circumstances.

 

[DeletedUser14029]

I mentioned Japan because this country is well-known for its... well, other than suicide rate, also how little girls hold their virginity as something dear >.<

Rules and Regulations coming first in my city is actually not so bad in the Westerners' sense - because Hong Kong was a British Colony until 1997 June 30th 23:59:59. our systems and mode of operation derive largely from the British

and about your conclusion, yeah - my view has altered a bit. Been nice to discuss with you guys, and I really can't pass a comment on churches taking money and do all the re-marrying/divorce business to earn money. I DON'T THINK it's the right way, but well - let's just say I will be married for once and for all >.<

last but not least, enjoy the game, and once again thank you for your lenient behaviour to a girl who I admit, can sometimes be troublesome

 

[DeletedUser]

It's fine with me. You have a lot of ammunition on the subject so I had to make sure my points were dead-on and I had to be blunt to keep it short.

 

[DeletedUser14029]

I am quite sensitive on such issues as it may affect our next generation's social values.

but I thought I said I would stop already ^^

cya all~

 

[DeletedUser]

A lot of my views have already been said about abortion, but I recently discovered this website enlightening some of the stories about men and women who are not sorry that they (or their partner) had an abortion. Take a read! It's very interesting.

http://www.imnotsorry.net/newstories24.htm

 

[DeletedUser]

I think abortions should be VERY close to being free. I've seen kids that are pregnant. I've also seen kids that were almost aborted but their parents changed their minds or could not get the approval. Some of those kids should have been aborted. Also, abortions should be FREE for welfare recipiants. That way, only people who are truly wanting to have children can if they want to. Plus, that would keep the population much, much lower.

EDIT: I read the site, Gem, and I disagree with what they are saying. A "Group of cells" is far from a good reason to get an abortion. The reason I think of is preventing a bad commitment, preventing throwing a child into an unready family, and preventing overpopulation. And I really hate seeing and hearing a bunch of drug addicted 'girls' (W) sounding like men everyday in back of the school while thinking they are 'tough'... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J565MPBoFTM
Pretty much, allow abortions or have 21,000 Steve Wilkos's.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think abortions should be VERY close to being free. I've seen kids that are pregnant. I've also seen kids that were almost aborted but their parents changed their minds or could not get the approval. Some of those kids should have been aborted. Also, abortions should be FREE for welfare recipiants. That way, only people who are truly wanting to have children can if they want to. Plus, that would keep the population much, much lower.

EDIT: I read the site, Gem, and I disagree with what they are saying. A "Group of cells" is far from a good reason to get an abortion. The reason I think of is preventing a bad commitment, preventing throwing a child into an unready family, and preventing overpopulation. And I really hate seeing and hearing a bunch of drug addicted 'girls' (W) sounding like men everyday in back of the school while thinking they are 'tough'... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J565MPBoFTM
Pretty much, allow abortions or have 21,000 Steve Wilkos's.

I was not advocating anything in the link, but these stories are definitely better than the ones about the girls who are scarred to life after having an abortion. Whilst those stories may be real, it must really scare people considering getting one.

I linked it because it was a refreshing approach and wouldn't be used as anti-abortion arguments, and that not everyone reacts the same way to them.

I dislike the way the media only plays two extremes.

 

[DeletedUser]

I was not advocating anything in the link, but these stories are definitely better than the ones about the girls who are scarred to life after having an abortion. Whilst those stories may be real, it must really scare people considering getting one.

I linked it because it was a refreshing approach and wouldn't be used as anti-abortion arguments, and that not everyone reacts the same way to them.

I dislike the way the media only plays two extremes.

I know you wern't advocating it, I just found what one of the women, "Isibella" said.

 

[DeletedUser]

Abortion is a crime!!!! I think you are making a big mistake there David. The truth is that fetuses are already human beings because they are technically the union of two different human beings into one flesh. 23 chromosomes from the father, another 23 from the mother. Also, the process of abortion can damage the woman's uterus that can make her less likely to have a baby in a time that she already wants to have one.

People like you and me David should be thankful that our mothers let us live while inside their womb, otherwise if they had aborted us, we wouldn't be here talking about this. If you value this aspect, you would recognize the life of those who are yet to be born.

 

[DeletedUser13682]

The way I see it, if viewed from a religious viewpoint, then it's God's will, if you're a Christian, which is the only religion I have experience with and can draw anything from. You hear people talk about bad things happening, and claiming that it's God's will that it happened, yet they don't mention abortion. If God didn't want the fetus to get aborted, then He would have put it in another woman. When I consider it from a scientific standpoint, if the fetus isn't active, before it meets general requirements to be considered living, then I think it's alright to have an abortion. But, after it can be officially called living, then send it to be adopted when it's born.