Abortion

[DeletedUser]

I didn't see a thread about this in the past five pages, so I made this thread...

I think abortions should be legal. The fetus is not tecknically human yet, so your not a "baby killer" since you can't tecknically kill it. Also, the fact that mastrabation whould also prevent the life means that no matter what you do, you whould be a "baby killer" if you had sex without gitting a girl pregnant. Care to argue?

 

[DeletedUser]

There was one created already... I say the more the abortions, the more space I can have on this world. My future Miss Perfect better not think about it though.

 

[DeletedUser]

I didn't see a thread about this in the past five pages, so I made this thread...

I think abortions should be legal. The fetus is not tecknically human yet, so your not a "baby killer" since you can't tecknically kill it. Also, the fact that mastrabation whould also prevent the life means that no matter what you do, you whould be a "baby killer" if you had sex without gitting a girl pregnant. Care to argue?

Firstly to prevent me being jumped on I do believe in abortions being available this is simply an attempt to educate you a little.

At what point does the fetus become human in your eyes? When it exits the birth canal? At 37 weeks? At 30 weeks? Why at the point you choose and not say 2 weeks earlier?

The difference between an abortion and masturbation / using protection is that you are preventing life from forming not destroying something that actually exists.

Look at the catholic church however - masturbation is a sin, and they are not supposed to use birth control of any sort (condoms etc).

If you have unprotected sex and the woman does not get pregnant how is that being a baby killer? Do you honestly believe that having unprotected sex once always gets someone pregnant?

This is more the fact you need to think about things rather then saying abortions should be illegal.

Yes I'm bored

 

[DeletedUser]

I think abortion is too emotive a subject to be discussed in an open game forum with a lot of immature players who can happily expect no possible real life comeback.

(not all players are immature but there is a definite presence)

 

[DeletedUser]

I didn't see a thread about this in the past five pages, so I made this thread...

I think abortions should be legal. The fetus is not tecknically human yet, so your not a "baby killer" since you can't tecknically kill it. Also, the fact that mastrabation whould also prevent the life means that no matter what you do, you whould be a "baby killer" if you had sex without gitting a girl pregnant. Care to argue?

Okay, let's look at the science.

The egg and sperm are both haploid cells. This means that they have only 23 chromosomes as opposed to the 46 necessary to be human. Thus, they are human sex cells yet are not humans.

However, upon fertilization, a zygote (fetus) is formed with all 46 chromosomes, unless a mutation occurs.

If unhindered, the zygote will grow into an adult human by itself. Thus, as soon as the zygote is formed it has become a human being.

Now, as for "mother's rights". Do you have the right to kill your 5-month-old baby, 10-year-old son, or 29-year-old daughter? In the Western world, at least, you don't. Thus, why should you have the right to kill the fetus?
Contraceptives will only prevent the human from being created, but abortions directly kill it.


Now, here's a quote from John Rose:
"Saying a fetus will grow into a human is like saying a clump of clay/stone will turn into a beautiful sculpture."
The difference is that the fetus will grow by itself (as long as it is supplied food and other necessities from the mother). The stone/clay will just sit there and be, other the years, eroded.

Firstly to prevent me being jumped on I do believe in abortions being available this is simply an attempt to educate you a little.

At what point does the fetus become human in your eyes? When it exits the birth canal? At 37 weeks? At 30 weeks? Why at the point you choose and not say 2 weeks earlier?

The difference between an abortion and masturbation / using protection is that you are preventing life from forming not destroying something that actually exists.

Look at the catholic church however - masturbation is a sin, and they are not supposed to use birth control of any sort (condoms etc).

If you have unprotected sex and the woman does not get pregnant how is that being a baby killer? Do you honestly believe that having unprotected sex once always gets someone pregnant?

This is more the fact you need to think about things rather then saying abortions should be illegal.

Yes I'm bored

How can you possibly be a "baby killer" if the baby was never even created?

EDIT: Never mind, now I understand what you are saying.

 

[DeletedUser]

If unhindered, the zygote will grow into an adult human by itself.

That is simply not true. The zygote is parasitical and cannot survive without the host.

 

[DeletedUser]

That is simply not true. The zygote is parasitical and cannot survive without the host.

just like a 6 month old child would correct? if the child is not taken care of and neglected it would more then likely die. at what point do we say a person is considered human? when it can fend for itself? when it doesn't need someone else to feed and take care of said person?

 

[DeletedUser]

just like a 6 month old child would correct? if the child is not taken care of and neglected it would more then likely die. at what point do we say a person is considered human? when it can fend for itself? when it doesn't need someone else to feed and take care of said person?

Not even remotely the same thing. A baby could conceivably survive on it's own. It's physically capable of doing so, just not mentally. A parasite cannot survive physically without a host. Like it or not, a fetus could very easily be defined as a parasite.

 

[Deleted User - 819397]

Not even remotely the same thing. A baby could conceivably survive on it's own. It's physically capable of doing so, just not mentally. A parasite cannot survive physically without a host. Like it or not, a fetus could very easily be defined as a parasite.

The bolded part is key. A person cannot mentally take complete, quality care of themselves until around age 10-12. They require care until then, making, using your argument, them a parasite. The only difference is, like you said, the physical capabilities. I am against abortion due to the fact that, even if you didn't want the child, YOU made the choice to engage in activities that would lead to that, therefore YOU should accept the consequences and take as good care of YOUR new responsibility as best you can, even if that means adoption. Adoption is the best way to help a kid you don't want or can't take care of. That way you give them the chance to make something of their own life, rather than choose to end it yourself.

 

[DeletedUser]

masturbation is a sin

No its not. Its just frowned upon by the church :dry:

 

[DeletedUser13682]

I am against abortion due to the fact that, even if you didn't want the child, YOU made the choice to engage in activities that would lead to that, therefore YOU should accept the consequences and take as good care of YOUR new responsibility as best you can, even if that means adoption. Adoption is the best way to help a kid you don't want or can't take care of. That way you give them the chance to make something of their own life, rather than choose to end it yourself.

And what if the person had no choice? If the person had no choice to engage in sexual activities, is it still their responsibility, and does that still make abortion wrong?

 

[DeletedUser]

And what if the person had no choice? If the person had no choice to engage in sexual activities, is it still their responsibility, and does that still make abortion wrong?

Well, no.

ACCIDENTAL PREGNATION WITH CONTRACEPTIVES
If contraceptives such as birth-control pills and condoms are used and a baby is still born (against all odds: both have around a 98% effectivity), then the mother (and father) knew they were taking a gamble and thus should have to accept the consequences if they arise.

ACCIDENTAL PREGNATION WITHOUT CONTRACEPTIVES
If contraceptives were misused or absent, then it was still a gamble like the situation listed before. Also, if you were stupid enough to engage in sexual activity without contraceptives, in my opinion you deserve to end up bearing the financial burden of a child.

CHANGING MIND ON INTENTIONALLY BECOMING IMPREGNATED
I'm sure this isn't very common, but if a mother decided to become pregnated and then, during the pregnation, changed her mind and had an abortion, her first decision should be the one she has to deal with. There are consequences for actions.

FAULTILY-ADVERTISED CONTRACEPTIVES
If the contraceptive company advertised faulty contraceptives, the parents are still taking a gamble on what they thought the odds of pregnation were. The company should be sue-able, though.

PREGNATION BY RAPE
In this case, the rape victim, if female, had no choice in becoming pregnated. A male rape victim had no choice in impregnating the female rapist.
However, I believe that the "parasite" as Hellstromm has labeled it (though scientifically accurate) still has a right to Life. Does the mention of that word, when capitalized, ring a bell?

A CHILD WITH MENTAL DEFECTS
If a child is born with mental defects preventing, or at least severely limiting, thought or is born with physical defects causing excruciating pain or massive health complications, it is okay to have an abortion as it would just be killing a "vegetable" or putting a child out of its misery thats life would otherwise be terrible.

BIRTHS THAT MAY KILL THE MOTHER
If birthing complications may kill the mother, then an abortion should be okay. This is because the mother need not die just for the sake of the baby.


A born infant requires milk, either human, animal, or synthetic. Now, here I'm going to give you a scenario.

A baby is born somewhere in an urban, rural, or uncivilized environment. Nobody bothers feeding the baby. The mother dies during the birth.
The baby has no source of synthetic milk, unless it, by some miracle, happens across a dropped bottle. It is entirely possible that an animal will let the baby suckle from it (like the legend of Romulus and Remus), but it is unlikely.
Fierce predators (in the urban environment, these "predators" could be vehicles or humans, in addition to rats and eagles) are looking for meals, and the baby would be an easy target.
How long is that baby going to live, without the mental capability to do much more than crawl, babble, cry, try suckling on things, clamber, and crap/piss itself?

As for the fetus, it could be fed chemicals from another source (though it would require a science laboratory). Thus, the fetus, while it stands less of a chance, isn't that far away from the infant.

 

[DeletedUser]

The bolded part is key. A person cannot mentally take complete, quality care of themselves until around age 10-12. They require care until then, making, using your argument, them a parasite. The only difference is, like you said, the physical capabilities. I am against abortion due to the fact that, even if you didn't want the child, YOU made the choice to engage in activities that would lead to that, therefore YOU should accept the consequences and take as good care of YOUR new responsibility as best you can, even if that means adoption. Adoption is the best way to help a kid you don't want or can't take care of. That way you give them the chance to make something of their own life, rather than choose to end it yourself.

Oh this is a ridiculous argument. If you grab a suburban adult and throw him in the jungle, he may die for lacking the skills needed to survive on his own and the knowledge to know what is edible and what is not. Does that make him a parasite? No, it makes him largely incapable of surviving on his own for lack of instincts.

Man has become a socially dependent creature, dependent upon what he is taught in order to survive, but it does not make him a parasite, it just makes him pathetic in comparison to other creatures on this Earth. He must be taught as opposed to being born with instincts that would allow him to survive.

So if you want to grab a child and say a child cannot survive on his own, as if somehow a child differs from an adult, you're just being deceitful. In the society for which we all live, a child will be cared for, just as an indigent man or a starving woman. Indeed, in many countries, children are brought into the workplace almost immediately after being weaned off the nipple.

The fetus, on the other hand is 100% dependent upon the host. It cannot be cared for once it is extricated from the uterus. No amount of education will ensure the fetus can fend for itself. It is effectively a parasite that is oftentimes perceived by the host body as a foreign object, which results in health issues or death for the fetus and/or the host.

Granted, nobody likes to think they were once bloodsucking leeches, but hey... eventually they grow up to be bloodsucking teenagers, suckling off the nipples of their parents' paychecks to obtain their free education, Ipod, cellphone and BMW, and posting their obtuse conclusions on the net as if somehow their meager education provides deeper insight and greater comprehension than those who invested decades into earnestly researching the various issues being routinely debated on pedestals of stubborn ignorance in these, and other, forums on the internet.

 

[DeletedUser]

I just noted with humor how, when you scroll over your rep bars, it says "Hellstromm is just really nice" in the same post as that savage attack on johannmaximus.

Yes, the fetus is 100% dependent on the host. Yes, it harms the host. Is a baby that much better off without its mother?
The point is that it is the same organism as what you, johannmaximus, and I are all. Well, as for the decades of experience, it is true that the elderly tend to be wiser. Sometimes, the young are still correct, though.

By the way, when did I say that quote that you are now using as your signature?

 

[DeletedUser]

I did not bother to read most of this thread, but I will say something:

EVEN IF ABORTION IS ILLEGAL, IT WILL STILL HAPPEN.
It happens in EVERY country in the world. It's been happening for centuries. If it's illegal, all that will do is make it more expensive and done in a less humane way.

For a practical argument, you're better off not making it illegal so that there are safe ways to do it, if it needs to be done.

Finally, any law that invades the privacy of your own body is not a just law. What a woman decides to do with HER body is her business. It's not a religious issue, its a privacy issue. Which, in my country, is protected explicitly by federal law.

(Also by definition, the fetus -while inside the mother- is a parasite. That much is not up for argument)

 

[DeletedUser]

Finally, any law that invades the privacy of your own body is not a just law. What a woman decides to do with HER body is her business. It's not a religious issue, its a privacy issue. Which, in my country, is protected explicitly by federal law.

Is assisted suicide illegal in your country? i.e. if someone wishes to die, (for example someone suffering from muscular dystrophy (sp?)) and you help them to kill them selves can you be charged with anything?

As that is their wish and is a privacy issue, so is it protected by federal law?

 

[DeletedUser]

Is assisted suicide illegal in your country? i.e. if someone wishes to die, (for example someone suffering from muscular dystrophy (sp?)) and you help them to kill them selves can you be charged with anything?

As that is their wish and is a privacy issue, so is it protected by federal law?

I really don't want to get off topic but let me try to explain my position:

I think the law is different from state to state with assisted suicide, but I really don't know. I am not sure if there is a federal law that conflicts with some state laws (as is the case with medical marijuana). Your question is "is it protected by federal law" and the answer is probably "no" but I believe there are doctor/patient confidentiality laws. It depends how the court wants to interpret/prioritize the laws and also what precedent was set for that particular situation.

However I believe assisted suicide is even MORE of a cut and dry issue of privacy because there is no 3rd party involved, like abortion (the fetus). If a person wants to die under their own terms and wants medical assistance, they should be allowed to do it as long as there is a willing doctor to do it.

This is just my opinion and I feel that I am consistent here. I know medical marijuana and doctor assisted suicide can be its own debate, but they all revolve around privacy in some way or another and help my abortion argument.

Back on topic:

Over all I believe that its not a government's job to dictate a moral standard that everyone has to conform to. Law is not supposed to tell us what is "right" or "wrong," it is supposed to create recourse for people who have had their guaranteed rights infringed upon by someone else. Abortion being "wrong" should never even come up in the argument. That is not the issue, and anyone who's argument against abortion is that its "wrong" is missing the point and ignorant in this matter. The issue is whether or not government has the right to invade a woman's reproductive privacy and I believe the answer is "NO." Sure, I respect people's opinions who's answer is "YES. I believe the government has the right to control a woman's reproductive rights," if they have a sound reason...but if their reason is "because abortion is wrong!" or gives some religious interpretation then I'd rather not even have the discussion because that individual is ignorant.

 

[DeletedUser14029]

I did not bother to read most of this thread, but I will say something:

EVEN IF ABORTION IS ILLEGAL, IT WILL STILL HAPPEN.
It happens in EVERY country in the world. It's been happening for centuries. If it's illegal, all that will do is make it more expensive and done in a less humane way.

For a practical argument, you're better off not making it illegal so that there are safe ways to do it, if it needs to be done.

Great. Let's legalise all crimes so that social problems will be non-existent and murders are just a way of reducing the current population. I don't even have to start arguing whether abortion is right (Strongly Oppose). Your argument just don't stand at all >.<

 

[DeletedUser]

so just wondering anyone going to be in DC the 22nd of January? (kind of off topic but if you know what is going on in DC that day it is not off topic)

 

[DeletedUser]

Pro1000, as it seem you're not at all familiar with the concern J412 is presenting, I'm going to discuss just one aspect of this abortion debate. A major problem with making abortion illegal, based on firm statistics, is that women who seek an abortion will still obtain them, either illegally or elsewhere and via dangerous conditions. Numbers show the death/injury rate of women seeking abortion illegally is immense.

Just to touch another thing -- the pro life movement is largely headed by men, and comprised of men. This indicates the issue is not merely pro life, but gender-related, goes right back to the issue of women's rights, and shows how not only is there still a race war, but a gender war.