DeletedUser
Here's an answer for you:
If only sensible fighters played this game, sleep camping would not be a problem in the first place.
Never leaving an enemies hotel means not working, you cannot earn much money or experience if dueling and sleeping are all you do, so using this tactic for prolonged periods will leave you at a serious disadvantage.
My point remains: you are closing one loophole but opening a much larger one. The fact that a clever dueler would not abuse either does not help your case!
If only sensible fighters played this game, sleep camping would not be a problem in the first place.
Never leaving an enemies hotel means not working, you cannot earn much money or experience if dueling and sleeping are all you do, so using this tactic for prolonged periods will leave you at a serious disadvantage.
My point remains: you are closing one loophole but opening a much larger one. The fact that a clever dueler would not abuse either does not help your case!
DeletedUser
My suggestion offers a solution to deal with such idiots. Contrary to the postponed hotel solution, the reduced gains for attacking hotels solution will be available always for everyone.
If the majority of this game is made out of idiots, we might as well give up this game right away, so towns should be able to deal with the vast majority of them while they are unable to deal with a small minority at the moment.
If the majority of this game is made out of idiots, we might as well give up this game right away, so towns should be able to deal with the vast majority of them while they are unable to deal with a small minority at the moment.
DeletedUser
I see some problems with this although I appreciate the well thought out idea. I think a much simpler solution would be to just make it so you can not initiate a duel for 5 minutes after you wake up from sleeping. This gives the town the attacker is sleeping and hitting in a chance to queue a duel against you and complete it before any duel the attacker has queued can finish. It shouldn't be too hard to put a 5 minute delay upon waking of initiating a duel.
DeletedUser
I'm I understanding well that you expect people to go check every five minutes for eight hours to see if some lamer has come out of his eight hour sleep?
That ain't a fun game, that's compulsary behaviour.
That ain't a fun game, that's compulsary behaviour.
DeletedUser1105
I don't see the problem with this, as long as everyone is still 100% safe in thier OWN hotel.
You'd only be more at risk in foriegn hotels.
You'd only be more at risk in foriegn hotels.
DeletedUser
If the person is sleeping/hitting in your town and you are trying to catch him to duel him then I would think you are checking all the time anyways. At least this way you would have a chance at getting them. Plus, it may deter the sleeping/hitting players because they know they will be at risk.
Honestly, there is a way to hit a sleeper/hitter before he pops back into the hotel if you just think about it . I know my town in w6 can't be the only one to figure it out.
Edit: Question, so if they don't stay in your hotel regular dueling applies? What happens if someone pops into your hotel because it is the closest one and they don't want to be KO'd. When they come out of the hotel and finally make it home is the very next duel they cue going to be at a reduced rate? Or is the hotel stay tied into that specific town. If so, how long until it wears off? Sounds way more confusing with loopholes possible than just adding a dueling delay. Plus a dueling delay gives the town members a chance to hit back.
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DeletedUser
I have a real life job that makes it impossible to be online for about 11 hours a day, four days a week. When I want to duel I find targets, when I want to retaliate, I currently depend on being lucky enough to not always find the people I want to retaliate in a hotel. That ehm... Well, you probably know what that does.
In answer to your question:
1> Like hotel are always & everywhere safe now, the modifications would always and everywhere apply for everyone with the existing exception on the room wages. Hometown rooms are for free and adventurers can sleep for free in all closets and dormitories.
2> Duels commence the way they currently do for people who are not asleep and don't go asleep during the ten minute wait: Instant start of 10 minute delay that is always followed by the shooting. Gains should be modified by the modifier that corresponds with the modifier for the situation at the end of the ten minutes when the duel takes place.
In answer to your question:
1> Like hotel are always & everywhere safe now, the modifications would always and everywhere apply for everyone with the existing exception on the room wages. Hometown rooms are for free and adventurers can sleep for free in all closets and dormitories.
2> Duels commence the way they currently do for people who are not asleep and don't go asleep during the ten minute wait: Instant start of 10 minute delay that is always followed by the shooting. Gains should be modified by the modifier that corresponds with the modifier for the situation at the end of the ten minutes when the duel takes place.
DeletedUser
The idea does not protect your townsfolk and it does not offer your town a chance at retaliation.
1. So a dueling adventurer wouldn't be affected by this at all. What is the point then. There are plenty of dueling advents out there so this idea will not stop sleeper/hitters. If it doesn't stop the problem then why implement it? It may cut down on it but not completely. You also missed my point. If someone stays at a foreign hotel but does not hit anyone in that town when they wake up, when does the penalty wear off?
So the next time that person duels anyone they are penalized?
2. You lost me after instant start.
When you say 'spoils' does that mean xp too or just cash? If it's cash you can forget about it. There is never a guarantee you will get cash in a duel anyways. To take away a duelers livelihood with this method is unfair. If it's xp then that is ridiculous as well. People earn their dueling ranks and xp earned is based on motivation, not where someone slept.
1. So a dueling adventurer wouldn't be affected by this at all. What is the point then. There are plenty of dueling advents out there so this idea will not stop sleeper/hitters. If it doesn't stop the problem then why implement it? It may cut down on it but not completely. You also missed my point. If someone stays at a foreign hotel but does not hit anyone in that town when they wake up, when does the penalty wear off?
So the next time that person duels anyone they are penalized?
2. You lost me after instant start.
When you say 'spoils' does that mean xp too or just cash? If it's cash you can forget about it. There is never a guarantee you will get cash in a duel anyways. To take away a duelers livelihood with this method is unfair. If it's xp then that is ridiculous as well. People earn their dueling ranks and xp earned is based on motivation, not where someone slept.
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DeletedUser
@ Denisero:
As I've understood it the penalty is for attacking a player sleeping in a hotel - NOT your first duel after sleeping yourself.
And the way it's meant to fix the problem is to allow your duellers to spend 75 energy
[*] to duel the attacker/sleeper and get only a tenth of the 'spoils'.
[*] Any non-adventurer duel/sleeper always uses the lowest room, right? It's not like they're actually going to sleep for long enough to make a better room worth it. This change will make it even more so, since the cheaper rooms are also the best protected (which makes no sense in my head).
As I've understood it the penalty is for attacking a player sleeping in a hotel - NOT your first duel after sleeping yourself.
And the way it's meant to fix the problem is to allow your duellers to spend 75 energy
[*] to duel the attacker/sleeper and get only a tenth of the 'spoils'.
[*] Any non-adventurer duel/sleeper always uses the lowest room, right? It's not like they're actually going to sleep for long enough to make a better room worth it. This change will make it even more so, since the cheaper rooms are also the best protected (which makes no sense in my head).
DeletedUser
Ok. I get it now. (I've been up all night). No wonder the OP and I weren't understanding each other. Well I still don't like it. Lol. Let me sleep and I'll elaborate more 
Edit: Ok, I've slept.
OP please explain this further:
Hotels should always be 100% safe. Always. This idea is biased towards fighters. No other 'job' is as dangerous to do and dueling is a job for many people, their only job in some cases. Making Hotels unsafe, which basically picks on fighter classes, would be like adding 50% danger to in town construction for builders. Everything must be in balance and this is not.
Edit: Ok, I've slept.
OP please explain this further:
Can you tell us why adding a 5 minute delay from waking from a hotel in order to initiate a duel is not an option? Instead of changing the way hotels work don't you think it would be simpler. Yes, I understand you don't want to have to check to see if someone is up every 5 minutes but I think some effort should have to be put into hitting a player that is camped in your hotel. Camping is not against the rules and is a valid war tactic.
Hotels should always be 100% safe. Always. This idea is biased towards fighters. No other 'job' is as dangerous to do and dueling is a job for many people, their only job in some cases. Making Hotels unsafe, which basically picks on fighter classes, would be like adding 50% danger to in town construction for builders. Everything must be in balance and this is not.
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DeletedUser
Dr Drud,
The added price for extra protection in the cheap rooms isn't a financial one, it is receiving less energy and health points while sleeping there.
Deniserio,
In principle, being a worker is far more dangerous then being a dueler. The only thing that keeps the risks in reality lower is the don't attack workers etiquete. Without a good tool to target those who breach the unwritten law to leave workers at peace most of the time, because they can get away with a abusable game feature, that is likely to change.
Our difference appears to be on how to forge the tool to counter it, I think your suggestion won't work and explained that the raison is the game activity it will demand.
Below I'll show why dueling is more dangerous then working in an environment with equal numbers of workers and fighters and absence of the unwritten don't attack workers rule due to absence of tools to enforce it.
Working: 60 minutes exposure/12 energy= 5 min/E
Fighting: 10 minutes exposure/12,5 energy = 0,8 min/E
Assuming the gains are roughly the same per energy, this shows that a worker is 6,25 times longer vulnerable for attacks while not sleeping then a fighter for the same gains. Being dueler is certainly not the riskiest job, because a fighter will be chosing most of his targets, while a worker is a sitting duck.
Regarding camping during war with my suggestion implemented:
Whoever decides to target workers before fighter during a war will receive more hits from the fighters. 'Killing' fighters first will reduce your own damage.
Whoever decides to target workers after the fighters are 'killed', wastes time & energy (up to 75 energy per attack!) on targets that bring close to no gains.
This is only profitable for a group of towns that want to collectively and coordinated make a point extremely clear to one single town. Otherwise it's never worth the investment. For that reason, I don't expect a group of workers hiding in hotels during war to be attacked very often.
The added price for extra protection in the cheap rooms isn't a financial one, it is receiving less energy and health points while sleeping there.
Deniserio,
In principle, being a worker is far more dangerous then being a dueler. The only thing that keeps the risks in reality lower is the don't attack workers etiquete. Without a good tool to target those who breach the unwritten law to leave workers at peace most of the time, because they can get away with a abusable game feature, that is likely to change.
Our difference appears to be on how to forge the tool to counter it, I think your suggestion won't work and explained that the raison is the game activity it will demand.
Below I'll show why dueling is more dangerous then working in an environment with equal numbers of workers and fighters and absence of the unwritten don't attack workers rule due to absence of tools to enforce it.
Working: 60 minutes exposure/12 energy= 5 min/E
Fighting: 10 minutes exposure/12,5 energy = 0,8 min/E
Assuming the gains are roughly the same per energy, this shows that a worker is 6,25 times longer vulnerable for attacks while not sleeping then a fighter for the same gains. Being dueler is certainly not the riskiest job, because a fighter will be chosing most of his targets, while a worker is a sitting duck.
Regarding camping during war with my suggestion implemented:
Whoever decides to target workers before fighter during a war will receive more hits from the fighters. 'Killing' fighters first will reduce your own damage.
Whoever decides to target workers after the fighters are 'killed', wastes time & energy (up to 75 energy per attack!) on targets that bring close to no gains.
This is only profitable for a group of towns that want to collectively and coordinated make a point extremely clear to one single town. Otherwise it's never worth the investment. For that reason, I don't expect a group of workers hiding in hotels during war to be attacked very often.
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DeletedUser
The point of a town is to bring the players together in a working community. Each member of the town should be supporting each other. Workers to construct, fighters to protect/retaliate and adventurers to protect/retaliate and for income.
Your idea makes it way too easy for anyone to simply gang up on a player if they are sleeping in a foreign hotel, even if they are not dueling in that town. A dueler may hop from one hotel to another in order to make it home safely when they are low on health. Even in a hotel now they will be a sitting duck for all to take pot shots at. The only character classes that will be targeted with this method are fighters, particularly soldiers who do not get the speed bonus like duelers get. That makes it imbalanced.
If you are in a town then everyone should be working together. That is what part of being in a well run town is about. If you have someone camping in your town then your fighters go camp in their town. If we add a 5 minute delay, which you say why it won't work but I don't see your point, it cuts down on the security campers now have.
As I stated before, there is a very easy way to hit someone camping your town. It takes some coordination from town members but it can be done and has been done in my town numerous times. Sometimes you have to think outside the box for results. Your idea takes away a great opportunity for the town to work together as a team and in my opinion that is one of the greatest tests of strength for a town...how well they work together when circumstances call for it.
Might I also point out that they are working on changing the dueling mechanics so that a dueler has to travel to where his target is actually at. I assume this will happen after the forts update. So really the entire idea is moot.
Your idea makes it way too easy for anyone to simply gang up on a player if they are sleeping in a foreign hotel, even if they are not dueling in that town. A dueler may hop from one hotel to another in order to make it home safely when they are low on health. Even in a hotel now they will be a sitting duck for all to take pot shots at. The only character classes that will be targeted with this method are fighters, particularly soldiers who do not get the speed bonus like duelers get. That makes it imbalanced.
If you are in a town then everyone should be working together. That is what part of being in a well run town is about. If you have someone camping in your town then your fighters go camp in their town. If we add a 5 minute delay, which you say why it won't work but I don't see your point, it cuts down on the security campers now have.
As I stated before, there is a very easy way to hit someone camping your town. It takes some coordination from town members but it can be done and has been done in my town numerous times. Sometimes you have to think outside the box for results. Your idea takes away a great opportunity for the town to work together as a team and in my opinion that is one of the greatest tests of strength for a town...how well they work together when circumstances call for it.
Might I also point out that they are working on changing the dueling mechanics so that a dueler has to travel to where his target is actually at. I assume this will happen after the forts update. So really the entire idea is moot.
DeletedUser
Ouadai
You just don't get it do you. Everyone wants the hotel to be 100% safe. All we need is a delay and it can either be before dueling after sleeping or after dueling before sleeping. You have put a lot of thought into your idea but this is not what the game needs to fix this exploit. If this idea was to come to a vote I would have to say thumbs down.
You just don't get it do you. Everyone wants the hotel to be 100% safe. All we need is a delay and it can either be before dueling after sleeping or after dueling before sleeping. You have put a lot of thought into your idea but this is not what the game needs to fix this exploit. If this idea was to come to a vote I would have to say thumbs down.
DeletedUser
Todarling!:madg:
"You just don't get it do you."
Don't pretend I'm stupid and don't try to kill a mature discussion. That Denisero and I have different opinions is obvious as is with most people responding here. That doesn't mean that I'm disallowed to bring up my argument or that you disagreeing makes them stupid!
Denisero,
A sitting duck will not be shot at the moment, or even with five minutes extra delay when the people who want to shoot the guy aren't checking every second resp. every five minutes if he left his sleep state or not.
Loging in every five minutes for eight hours or longer isn't normal human behaviour, realy. My assumption is that many people have jobs, etc, preventing them from doing that. When using collective town effort to have someone in town log in every five minutes, small towns are at significant disadvantage when compared to big ones.
My solution ain't perfect, but it does address hit & hide, It does have checks and balances that make constantly attacking sleeping people uninteresting and with both fighters and both workers and fighters will have equal disadvantage because they both use hotels.
"Might I also point out that they are working on changing the dueling mechanics so that a dueler has to travel to where his target is actually at. I assume this will happen after the forts update. So really the entire idea is moot."
It is not moot. The change they work on as discribed by you does not effect the fact that fighters can hide somewhere after having hit in any single way.
"You just don't get it do you."
Don't pretend I'm stupid and don't try to kill a mature discussion. That Denisero and I have different opinions is obvious as is with most people responding here. That doesn't mean that I'm disallowed to bring up my argument or that you disagreeing makes them stupid!
Denisero,
A sitting duck will not be shot at the moment, or even with five minutes extra delay when the people who want to shoot the guy aren't checking every second resp. every five minutes if he left his sleep state or not.
Loging in every five minutes for eight hours or longer isn't normal human behaviour, realy. My assumption is that many people have jobs, etc, preventing them from doing that. When using collective town effort to have someone in town log in every five minutes, small towns are at significant disadvantage when compared to big ones.
My solution ain't perfect, but it does address hit & hide, It does have checks and balances that make constantly attacking sleeping people uninteresting and with both fighters and both workers and fighters will have equal disadvantage because they both use hotels.
"Might I also point out that they are working on changing the dueling mechanics so that a dueler has to travel to where his target is actually at. I assume this will happen after the forts update. So really the entire idea is moot."
It is not moot. The change they work on as discribed by you does not effect the fact that fighters can hide somewhere after having hit in any single way.
DeletedUser
Well we will agree to disagree. I've made my point. Should this ever get to a vote I highly doubt it would get the majority.
You leave me thinking that if someone is camping in your town and no one in your town wants to put the effort in to hit him when there is a 5 minute delay then your town isn't really a community. Plus there are workarounds to hit campers.
You leave me thinking that if someone is camping in your town and no one in your town wants to put the effort in to hit him when there is a 5 minute delay then your town isn't really a community. Plus there are workarounds to hit campers.
DeletedUser
This isn't a bad idea, the problem is total lack a safety in the Hotel. I know the attacker has a price to pay, But this idea hurts those who aren't duelers that may need protection. Like workers. Unless your own hotel is completely safe. All hotels should be safe though, but they do need some work.
As for doing the reverse camping and coordinating with your town members. I can see how this would possible work, if you had a large number of people in your town. However, if your a small town, which is where I've seen this take place the most. It is impossible. Most people have a life outside this game. It's not fair to tell someone they should log on every 5 minutes just to see if someone is out of the Hotel so they can attack them. That is why I'm not a big fan about the 5 minute delay. Maybe if it were a hour or so, but then nobody would like that either.
I also don't like the idea of making duelers go to where the opponent is located. Example a member goes to do Silver Mining. Well 5 duelers start camping Silver Mining and then before the poor guy gets back to safety he is shot up 5 times and has a huge chuck of his cash taken and is now passed out. It then makes those high paying jobs pointless to do. Although I do think you should be able to duel someone that is in your town, as long as your currently located in the town at the time. This may be the most realistic idea, but think about it, if you were a worker doing Silver mining, what would you do.
I like ragingredheads Idea, It was close to the same thought as my idea, with some modifications. It was too bad some just refused to understand it.
If your wanting to limit or end the Hotel staged attacks, something is going to have to give. I think limited hotel stays in a foreign town over a certain time period is that answer.
As for doing the reverse camping and coordinating with your town members. I can see how this would possible work, if you had a large number of people in your town. However, if your a small town, which is where I've seen this take place the most. It is impossible. Most people have a life outside this game. It's not fair to tell someone they should log on every 5 minutes just to see if someone is out of the Hotel so they can attack them. That is why I'm not a big fan about the 5 minute delay. Maybe if it were a hour or so, but then nobody would like that either.
I also don't like the idea of making duelers go to where the opponent is located. Example a member goes to do Silver Mining. Well 5 duelers start camping Silver Mining and then before the poor guy gets back to safety he is shot up 5 times and has a huge chuck of his cash taken and is now passed out. It then makes those high paying jobs pointless to do. Although I do think you should be able to duel someone that is in your town, as long as your currently located in the town at the time. This may be the most realistic idea, but think about it, if you were a worker doing Silver mining, what would you do.
I like ragingredheads Idea, It was close to the same thought as my idea, with some modifications. It was too bad some just refused to understand it.
If your wanting to limit or end the Hotel staged attacks, something is going to have to give. I think limited hotel stays in a foreign town over a certain time period is that answer.
DeletedUser
If you believe that try being a dueller
DeletedUser
Denisero,
We do agree to disagree indeed.
James Woodson,
"I think limited hotel stays in a foreign town over a certain time period is that answer."
A person could sleep in a hotel next time, which often provides even less extra time to target him (her) then the 5 minutes in the delay suggestion in case a dueler has the fastest horse.
"I like ragingredheads Idea, It was close to the same thought as my idea, with some modifications."
Could you provide a link to your thread? It might take a few days before I read it because I'm uncertain about internet acces the comming days by the way.
"something is going to have to give"
Something has to change indeed.
MoSa1,
"If you believe that try being a dueller"
I gave arguements why I'm convinced it is, it is simple math with clear described bounderies when the math and the conclusions apply. Could you addres the math and the bounderies and explain why the game will not shift towards these boundaries?
To degrade to personal experiences: I play a soldier and hunted someone down who was sleeping most of the time on occasions that I was online for my mayor recently. It was a pointless and extremely boring exercise of working & waiting close to his town for about 36 hours until he wasn't asleep at some time. I pitty those who have to hunt down a hit & hide player, because they can be doing this days at a row without any chance of succes besides internet breakdown on the lamers side.
We do agree to disagree indeed.
James Woodson,
"I think limited hotel stays in a foreign town over a certain time period is that answer."
A person could sleep in a hotel next time, which often provides even less extra time to target him (her) then the 5 minutes in the delay suggestion in case a dueler has the fastest horse.
"I like ragingredheads Idea, It was close to the same thought as my idea, with some modifications."
Could you provide a link to your thread? It might take a few days before I read it because I'm uncertain about internet acces the comming days by the way.
"something is going to have to give"
Something has to change indeed.
MoSa1,
"If you believe that try being a dueller
"I gave arguements why I'm convinced it is, it is simple math with clear described bounderies when the math and the conclusions apply. Could you addres the math and the bounderies and explain why the game will not shift towards these boundaries?
To degrade to personal experiences: I play a soldier and hunted someone down who was sleeping most of the time on occasions that I was online for my mayor recently. It was a pointless and extremely boring exercise of working & waiting close to his town for about 36 hours until he wasn't asleep at some time. I pitty those who have to hunt down a hit & hide player, because they can be doing this days at a row without any chance of succes besides internet breakdown on the lamers side.
DeletedUser
I get it fine, you are the one that don't get it. We don't need this kind of fix. All we need is a delay.