Allowing abortion with a twist...

[DeletedUser]

Alright, the answer to your first question is irrelevant to this topic, if we were talking about justice, that would be a different story, we're talking about an unborn human life.

No, you weren't. You were talking about burning eternally in hell for killing a human being. Obviously the giant mongoloid raping your daughter has the right away because you'll, as you were leading us all into, go to hell for killing a human being.

 

[DeletedUser]

Do you read, my friend? I said first, we don't believe in a burning hell, because it doesn't exist.

 

[DeletedUser]

Do you read, my friend? I said first, we don't believe in a burning hell, because it doesn't exist.

Uh, no, I don't read you, you're runnin' barefoot, over.
And no you didn't say anything first. But clearly you don't get a good understanding of your own religion, as it is obvious that your people go around telling people that they will only be saved from the eternal fire by becoming a Witness. It's all they ever say, and you know it, I know it, the world knows it, and the pie knows it and voices it. If the pie were a lie, then there must be no god then either.

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses believe there is no Hell, only 144,000 will go to Heaven, and the rest of the believers will live in "Heaven on Earth"...if I remember correctly.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes, a paradise earth.

Where did you get the idea of hell, the only hell we believe is the common grave of mankind, which is what hell translates to anyway. If any Witness was telling you about going to hell at all, it was simply talking about the grave.

 

[DeletedUser]

funny david i dont see anywhere in here where blonie stated his/her religious beliefs

or anything about hell

but it seems to me that your assuming that anyone thats anti abortion is some sort of protistant extremeist christian


let me clear a few things up

the average christian these days is FAR more open minded then there parents and those before them

the fire and brimstone christians of years past are a small precentage these days and getting smaller by the day


biblicaly speaking sin is sin yes but its not our place to judge it the bible says judge not lest ye be judged

theres much in the bible to speak agaisnt that type of attitude


but the first thing people like you do is attack one small specific group of christians and lump ALL belivers in the same boat as that small group
never mind that muslims, budists , taoists , mormons ,creationists, and many many others have shared ideals but completely differnt ideaologies


were all agisnt abortion to some extent or another , and agree on many other topics but have very differnt views and beliefs in other areas yet were always lumped as one and it shows a complete closed mindedness on the part of the people atempting to label us as such

 

[DeletedUser]

funny david i dont see anywhere in here where blonie stated his/her religious beliefs

or anything about hell

but it seems to me that your assuming that anyone thats anti abortion is some sort of protistant extremeist christian

Let me clear something up for you, friend, you don't know anything about who you are talking to, you don't know what you are talking about, and you haven't been on this forum anywhere near as long as I have. Blon'd'ie has stated his religious beliefs several times, so don't come to a debate with a shoe, spider.

the average christian these days is FAR more open minded then there parents and those before them

the fire and brimstone christians of years past are a small precentage these days and getting smaller by the day

That's because people are gaining a greater wealth of knowledge and finally learning that preaching about something that they aren't even sure about is a foolhardy attempt to escape from the truth and more people are better educated and able to handle the complex truth that the olden days of religious fanaticalism is an outdated and foolish practice.

biblicaly speaking sin is sin yes but its not our place to judge it the bible says judge not lest ye be judged

theres much in the bible to speak agaisnt that type of attitude

Biblical speak isn't my fort'e, reading a pointless 1200 year old book is as much a waste of time as trying to get a fundie out of a flytrap, and you can tell just by looking at them that they are in the best situation they can possibly hope for. I'm sure those little Alter boys have something to say about "bible speak" as well.

but the first thing people like you do is attack one small specific group of christians and lump ALL belivers in the same boat as that small group
never mind that muslims, budists , taoists , mormons ,creationists, and many many others have shared ideals but completely differnt ideaologies

You don't even know what kind of person I am, you accuse me of making assumptions but in reality you are as lost in the dark as Moses after walking fourty days and fourty nights raping and killing everyone in "evil" towns for the lord as he is Moses the great who can magically part some boys red buttcheaks in the middle of the afternoon.

were all agisnt abortion to some extent or another , and agree on many other topics but have very differnt views and beliefs in other areas yet were always lumped as one and it shows a complete closed mindedness on the part of the people atempting to label us as such

You have no idea what you are talking about. As much as I'd like to say end of story, this is debate, and I will prove your theory irrelevant and a fail.

We are not all against abortion, not to some extent, "or another", if we don't want to have kids, then we don't want to have kids, suck it out we don't need the torment if we aren't ready for it. And if anything, you are the close minded one because you biblical types ALWAYS cutthroat and backstab when you have your backs to the wall. I've seen enough of you to say meh. MEH in your face. I came from your theist side, and I've seen the *light* so to speak, it's more intelligent to look at the matters at hand and the truth that is there is not a god, if anything we are god, and abortion is a necessity for *freedom* and *values* to be even preserved at all. I would give the "would you rather" speech, but I'd rather not waste my time. Fundies always sway to the same side of the bridge, lets hope the guardrails don't twist off when the storm hits...

 

[DeletedUser]

Wow such uninformed vitriol

let me clear a few things up

in a debate you cant throw in personal knowlege from some other irrelevent unconnected discussion what you 2 may or may not have discussed in the past is irrelvent to this topic and THIS debate

as to your second point , you obviously have no clue about anything invloving modern christians

there personal beliefs havent changed they have simply come closer to following the accual teachings in the bible they havent starting doubting they have come to a differnt understanding



biblical speak isnt my forte either as im GASP not a christan but i have studdied the religions of the world but of course it appears given your comment that agian you cant seperate religions and groups and my point is that much more true
alter boys are chatholic and chatholics are RARELY fundamentalists and often at odds with said fundamentalists




i never made an assumption i made an observation theres a differnce you clearly have shown and continue to show yourself to be closed minded and incapable of seperating various groups and religions as you attack all as one and wrongfully assume that im christian or fundamentalist
( and fyi your rather lude and distrubing sexualy reference is inapropriate)


and lastly jsut a simple clarification

if you read my statement more carefully you would CLEARLY see that when i made the delarative statement about all of use being agiasnt abortion it was in direct refernce to the aforementioned groups listed not everyone in general but you knew that im sure and simply ignored it in an attempt to try and make yourself look smart




in closing try opening your mind and closing your mouth , a greater understanding comes from accepting that other peoples beliefs are jsut as valid as yours

 

[DeletedUser]

understanding comes from accepting that other peoples beliefs are jsut as valid as yours

Oh please, no religious person believes any other beliefs are as valid as their own. That's just an absolutely ridiculous statement to make. Monotheistic beliefs are exclusionary. "There can only be one" is the mindset of said beliefs, in which only their one belief is valid, all others being delusional or misguided. That's the nature of monotheism and, to some degree, polytheism.

So would you preffer to have a rampant child molester walk the streets, possibly evading the police and striking at a wide range and multitude of victims instead of euthanising him before he is put in a state where clearly his family will do a poor job in bringing him up?

You're absolutely right David, now all we need is a team of experts to look at unborn children, still in the womb, with their prognosticating x-ray eyes, and determine what they will become when they grow up.

Now, stepping away from your science fantasy, how about we deal with the reality, which is we don't know what a child will grow up to be, how they will behave, nor whether a parent, foster parent, or orphanage will treat a child. As such, we don't have any clue what a child will turn out to be, none.

The issue to abort, or not abort, is about the impact it has on the woman bearing the fetus, and on the condition of the fetus. Is it inordinately life-threatening to birth the child? Is the child going to come out virtually brain dead? Is that mother emotionally incapable of bearing the child? Was the fetus conceived due to a criminal act (rape, incest, etc)? Is it the right of the woman bearing the fetus to determine what occurs in her own body, or does the man who impregnated the woman suddenly have the right to dictate to the woman what she can or cannot do with her own body? Does the State or Nation have the right to dictate to a woman what she can or cannot do with her own body? Is a fetus considered part of a woman's body? When is a parasitical fetus deemed a separate entity?

Those are the real questions, not this ridiculous "Price is Right" argument you are presenting, and particularly not the rest of your arguments posed.

 

[DeletedUser]

(( let's try to stay on topic ))

 

[DeletedUser]

Oh please, no religious person believes any other beliefs are as valid as their own. That's just an absolutely ridiculous statement to make. Monotheistic beliefs are exclusionary. "There can only be one" is the mindset of said beliefs, in which only their one belief is valid, all others being delusional or misguided. That's the nature of monotheism and, to some degree, polytheism.

.

see this is where your wrong


i dont have to believe in other peoples religions to accept that there belief is just as valid as my own

it doesnt mean i think there beliefs are true or even correct only that there right to believe them is jsut as valid as my right to belive my own

i dont accept evolution for example ( at least not macro evolution) as i am a creationist however i accept that athiest are perfectly welcome to believe it to be true

i dont beleive in alla but i accept openly a muslims right to beleive in him and its not my place to insult or belittle there belief

while i may be happy to debate openly the merits of any one belief over another its not my place to say ones beleifs are false only to at most try to balance when i personaly feel one beleif is more valid than another in my personal oppinion in the end all beliefs are equaly valid as is each persons right to believe them and to attack someone personaly for the belief they have choosen is deplorable

 

[nashy19]

The question remains, do you want to die? Would you have wanted to be killed?

You could have been killed as sperm, or never born, both would have resulted in no you. If you're going for 'the more life the better' you should be out raping right now, or at least persuading as many woman as possible to have babies with you. By sitting idle you are denying life to a lot of people, perhaps billions.

About the tax, I think it'll cause more problems than it solves. Actually, I don't think it solves anything, nobody gets pregnant because it's a free experience.

i dont have to believe in other peoples religions to accept that there belief is just as valid as my own

If everybody's ideas are as valid as you own it's not rational to believe any of them.
How did you decide what the believe, did you put a bunch of ideas in a hat and pick which to have blind faith in (and against) at random?

 

[DeletedUser]

i have my beleifs based on my best interpritation of the data presented


just like everyone else to me my beleifs make the most logical sense possible

but who am i to tell someone else they have no right to choose what they beleive or to say there beleifs have no place in society ? thats the height of arrogance

i dont have to beleive what they do to beleive they have a right to choose what to beleive in

 

[DeletedUser]

That's because people are gaining a greater wealth of knowledge and finally learning that preaching about something that they aren't even sure about is a foolhardy attempt to escape from the truth and more people are better educated and able to handle the complex truth that the olden days of religious fanaticalism is an outdated and foolish practice.

And people like you have started to take their place trying to preach their own beliefs.

Biblical speak isn't my fort'e, reading a pointless 1200 year old book is as much a waste of time as trying to get a fundie out of a flytrap, and you can tell just by looking at them that they are in the best situation they can possibly hope for. I'm sure those little Alter boys have something to say about "bible speak" as well.

Yup, and its one of the oldest books around and a huge number of people in the world actually believe in it.

Heres a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth

So would you preffer to have a rampant child molester walk the streets, possibly evading the police and striking at a wide range and multitude of victims instead of euthanising him before he is put in a state where clearly his family will do a poor job in bringing him up?

Either that or the next president of the US or creator of penicillin or first man on Mars.

what i would propose is this instead

rather than funding abortion for low income people why not instead fund pregancy prevention surgeries for those that cant afford it

say free surgery for any man who wants it its fast its simple and safe and even reversable downt he road if you find your ready to have a child

Guys can we bring this back up. Personally I think prevention is a better idea than killing. What do you think? I know it won't solve everything because of the stray sheep in the group but it would prevent more.

 

[DeletedUser]

Hey Yago, did I ever mention I love you? you are one of the wisest persons I know, please do not stop applying your knowledge.

The point made here is clear, the decision is not ours, how are we to know whether a planned-to-be aborted child could either be another Alfred Nobel, but then again he could be another Adolf Hitler. We can't know, and killing the child won't answer that question, or solve the problem, take a pill, wear a condom, or do both and maybe you won't find yourself in the predicament in the first place.

 

[DeletedUser22575]

A young lady was on her way to work when she was involved in a car accident.
When she regained consciousness she was in a hospital laying in a bed. Gingerly she tried to move, and to her great relief other than being battered and bruised she did not appear to be seriously hurt.

A few minutes later a nurse entered the room and informed her that she had been unconscious for several hours and they were running some test to make sure she was not injured in any way.

Moving with quick, pleasant efficiency the nurse adjusted her IV, smoothed her bed and gave her an injection of painkiller and "something to help her sleep".

When she next regained consciousness there was a group of what appeared to be doctors speaking to each other in the room. The curtain between her bed and the other bed had been drawn and she could see two large tubes full of blood running from under her sheets and under the curtain.

Alarmed she reached down to feel what seemed to be two large needles attached to the tubes which were inserted into her upper leg.

Panicked she demanded of the doctors what was wrong with her.

One of the men stepped away from the group and approached her. With an air of condescending superiority he informed her that nothing was wrong with her, she was actually quite well and in very good shape.

However...Mr Zaborskey in the next bed was not quite so lucky.

It seems Mr Zaborskey had a rare kidney disease and his kidneys could no longer function. To make matters worse, Mr Zaborskey was allergic to the fluids used in both artificial dialysis and peritoneal dialysis.

This was a terrible, terrible tragedy. Mr Zaborskey it seems was not only a very young man, but a musical genius, one whom if he lived could be expected to surpass the accomplishments of Beethoven and others of like reputation.

Mr. Zaborskey's contributions to the world were unfortunately going to be cut short, he had approximately three days before he would succumb to kidney failure and the poisoning of the body that accompanied it...

..however..and at this point the doctor became quite excited, Fate had interceded for Mr. Zarorskey.

The young lady and Mr Zaborskey had the same very rare blood type. Not only that she and Mr Zaborskey's tissue typing was almost a perfect match.

She she had the rare and unique opportunity to support and save Mr Zaborskey's life with her own body for approximately the next year until a kidney could be possible found for him.

Horrified and shocked the young lady was silent for a moment.

I won't have it, she screamed. I am young with my own life to lead. I have a career and plans, and no where in my plan is a place for this unwanted intrusion in my life, or for the possible risk to my life, or the damage that this could possible cause to my body.

No problem, the doctor disdainfully informed her. Today modern medicine can compensate for the possible damage to your body, we have special vitamins for situations such as these.

As far as you not having it, you have no choice he further informed her. Human life is sacred and and can't be ended just because of something unplanned or inconvenient to you. Remember, only you can give life to Mr. Zaborskey.

Quickly the doctor exited the room, leaving the young woman laying in her bed speechless.



Question:

How should the young woman handle this situation.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, she could always donate a kidney to the guy, get on with her own life and hope the possible complications never happen. On the other hand, I think she'd be totally justified in refusing to help and getting on with her own life. Either way, just putting her own life on hold and her own health in danger isn't her only option.

 

[DeletedUser]

i believe the point of the story is that she isnt being given a choice which definately is absurd on the face of it

that said the " moral" of said story is so that people will jump to the defense of the girl in saying oh this isnt fair then jump out and yell GOTHCA its the same as abortion


however its not in MANY ways

first and formost the woman in the story didnt participate in behaivior or activity with the known consiquince of the end result

furthermore in the case of pregnancy a woman is still fully capable of leading a normal life and continuing work and school unlike the woman int eh story who is chained to a bed with a stranger


lastly being in a car accident and participating in unprotected sex are 2 distinctly differnt actions one is completely unknown and unavoidable while the other is a conscious choice ( and no were not including rape in this seneraio as i pretty sure its been made clear that the vast majority agree with abortion in the case of rape even most religions)


if you choose to have sex you choose to take the risk of pregnancy even if u use protection its a known fact that condoms break

the girl didnt CHOOSE to have a car accident and if if she had done something to cause it theres no way she could possibly expect the consiquince would be to be strapped to aq bed for a year to provide living dialisis to a stranger agiasnt her will

 

[DeletedUser22575]

i believe the point of the story is that she isnt being given a choice which definately is absurd on the face of it

that said the " moral" of said story is so that people will jump to the defense of the girl in saying oh this isnt fair then jump out and yell GOTHCA its the same as abortion


however its not in MANY ways

first and formost the woman in the story didnt participate in behaivior or activity with the known consiquince of the end result

furthermore in the case of pregnancy a woman is still fully capable of leading a normal life and continuing work and school unlike the woman int eh story who is chained to a bed with a stranger


lastly being in a car accident and participating in unprotected sex are 2 distinctly differnt actions one is completely unknown and unavoidable while the other is a conscious choice ( and no were not including rape in this seneraio as i pretty sure its been made clear that the vast majority agree with abortion in the case of rape even most religions)


if you choose to have sex you choose to take the risk of pregnancy even if u use protection its a known fact that condoms break

the girl didnt CHOOSE to have a car accident and if if she had done something to cause it theres no way she could possibly expect the consiquince would be to be strapped to aq bed for a year to provide living dialisis to a stranger agiasnt her will

Actually this story is one that was presented in a Medical Ethics course shortly after Roe versus Wade in the early 1970's in Cali.

The Professor divided the class into those who believed abortion was a personal choice, and those who believed it was wrong.

There is a very strong link to abortion here, those who often want it for the same reasons...ie, interference with a career, risk factors associated with pregnancy, the one year time frame almost the same as for a pregnancy, and most of all, the right to make ones own determination in regards to situations that affect ones body instead of having someone else's beliefs determining what your choices are.

Interesting enough, in the class those who thought abortion should be legal several actually considered helping the guy...

While the majority of those who thought abortion was morally wrong and should be illegal screamed.....not with my body..

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, if you don't want to be involved in a car accident, maybe you shouldn't drive (or ride in) cars. Not everyone who becomes pregnant has had unprotected sex - there is no 100% effective form of birth control; even abstinence doesn't help if you end up being raped. I had my tubes cut and burned because I felt that 2 children were enough for me, but 5 years later I ended up in the hospital having a miscarriage. I was told that the tubes do grow back together and make pregnancy possible in about 1 in 1000 cases. The example doesn't say that she is chained to the bed anyway, so she does have the option of getting up and leaving; I believe the purpose was to discuss the moral obligation to sacrifice your own interests for someone who other people may feel is more important.