Vigor & Weapon Damage vs Toughness !?!

[DeletedUser]

The arrangement does favor Melee duelers but I'd still say it's balanced overall cause Melees have crappy XP jobs compared to Firearms duelers.

Then that is two balance problems...not the resolution of either.

If a Firearms dueler is 10-15 levels above a Melee dueler cause the Firearms dueler has access to the plethora of high XP jobs which lets him gain XP levels faster then Melees are at a duel disadvantage.

Funny...it just doesn't work out that way when you actually look at player levels for competent duelers. Why is that?

Firearms dueler > Melee dueler any day of the week and twice on Sunday !

Sorry, the two best duelers I've seen on my world are Melee duelers (btw, I'm ranked 5th in duels on my server).

 

[DeletedUser]

The arrangement does favor Melee duelers but I'd still say it's balanced overall cause Melees have crappy XP jobs compared to Firearms duelers.

If a Firearms dueler is 10-15 levels above a Melee dueler cause the Firearms dueler has access to the plethora of high XP jobs which lets him gain XP levels faster then Melees are at a duel disadvantage.

If I could re-do my W-2/3 guys I'd make them both Firearms cause Firearms is just that much better then Melee due to the XP disparity. Of course I wouldn't play 4 toons with the same build but that's neither here nor there.

Firearms dueler > Melee dueler any day of the week and twice on Sunday !

I do have quite a few duels under my belt to back up that kind of statement.

1. Finally you agree that melee duelers are better. And again, nobody is talking about jobs, just about duels. Duels duels duels

2. If a dueler is higher 10-15 ranks above another dueler, then it means he has 10-15 att points and 30-45 skill points more. It would be a bit strange for a dueler so big 2 be helpless against a 10-15 lower. Also, you're saying that a shooter is better when he's 10-15 lvls higher?

3. About last bold thing, really you're not reading the stats right. Let me tell you again. In w2 and w3, in the top 10 duelers, there's 7 melee and 3 shooters. Why do you think it's that?

 

[DeletedUser]

High level Firearms duelers are more interested in XP jobs and they don't come into their own until L 65-70+ It is smart of them to keep their heads low and stay off the duel radar until they are good and ready.

thefbiman you go and duel any of those people I suggested you duel yet ?

W-1 used to be dominated by top melee duelers just like the newer worlds are ... but look now and there is only 4 legitimate melee people in the top 15 (legitimate = someone who didn't no weapon farm their duel XP.)

I'm at top 10 dueler on 3 worlds - trust me when I tell you guys to wait just a bit (thefbiman) and longer (adelie) for all those high XP Firearms guys to start coming around and dueling ... you'll be shocked to no end when some dueler who you never heard of with 6 wins does 1000 damage to you and gains 350 XP from you.

 

[DeletedUser]

Again, you seem to be off in Never Never Land. When you have a reply that actually touches on the points made, let me know.

The salient points are:

1. Resistance / Toughness is overpowered compared to the true dueling skills of Hit Points, Dodging and Aim (which do not contribute to any jobs).
2. Resistance / Toughness is arraigned to benefit Melee based duelers much more than Ranged duelers. For every 1 point of Strength, the Melee dueler gets 3 and 1/2 points towards dueling (Vigor, Toughness, Hit Points and half a point of Reflexes).

 

[DeletedUser]

This will be my last post on this thread - you can't compare just one thing in the game when everything is related, but you guys keep at it ...........

Keep on thinking Melee is overpowered ... you'll see in time.

 

[DeletedUser]

Then that is two balance problems...not the resolution of either.

Call me crazy, but I think it is a resolution. Melee fighters get an advantage with skill distribution, shooters get better jobs, sounds balanced to me. Giving different strategies different advantages is important for a game like this, otherwise it would get boring very quickly.

 

[DeletedUser]

1- shooting duelers are less often in top dueling because they are higher lvl, they gain less xp each duel.

2- if you're complaining about melee having higher defence, and that the defence gets them some jobs, go get those instead of having your almighty shooting xp jobs, you could gain firefighter... or maybe rafting wood! go trade off your extra shooting for those jobs, that way I'll have an easier time to beat you since you can't put all points into defence, shooting can put all (or near) points into shooting, wich makes defence useless (when having 300 shooting, my 120 reflex is useless, I still get max hits).

3- About aim/dodge/hp not being the most overpowered duel skills, who told you it wasn't? go try dueling someone without having those. It's just that aim and dodge counters themself and since they are both so 1337 they counter themself at same rate, and HP talks for itself, with the hits of most shooting duelers you'll die in 2-3 hits to the shoulders.

 

[DeletedUser]

Call me crazy, but I think it is a resolution. Melee fighters get an advantage with skill distribution, shooters get better jobs, sounds balanced to me. Giving different strategies different advantages is important for a game like this, otherwise it would get boring very quickly.

You're crazy.

First, I'm not sure I buy the premise about "Melee are cheated in terms of jobs". Melee don't have as good XP jobs, but they generally get better money jobs. Melee may not get as good jobs in the late game, but in the early game, I would argue that Melee get better jobs.

Second, IMO, there shouldn't be a disparity (especially one like this) in terms of the strength of the dueler based on class of weapon she chooses.

Third, let's say that we take the premise that "Melee are cheated in terms of jobs". And, I think we have made the case clear that Ranged Weapons duelers are at a disadvantage. The relative trade off isn't necessarily equal. This is especially true dependent on what your goals for the game are...like if you want to be a dueler rather than an adventurer.

Fourth, much like the third but slightly different is the concept that two wrongs, in fact, don't make a right.

Last, we still, of course, have the problem of the true Melee skills being devalued...

 

[DeletedUser]

1- shooting duelers are less often in top dueling because they are higher lvl, they gain less xp each duel.

Er...as opposed to Melee duelers in what way?

2- if you're complaining about melee having higher defence, and that the defence gets them some jobs, go get those instead of having your almighty shooting xp jobs, you could gain firefighter... or maybe rafting wood! go trade off your extra shooting for those jobs, that way I'll have an easier time to beat you since you can't put all points into defence, shooting can put all (or near) points into shooting, wich makes defence useless (when having 300 shooting, my 120 reflex is useless, I still get max hits).

So, instead of finding a solution, you advocate exploiting a problem.

3- About aim/dodge/hp not being the most overpowered duel skills, who told you it wasn't? go try dueling someone without having those. It's just that aim and dodge counters themself and since they are both so 1337 they counter themself at same rate, and HP talks for itself, with the hits of most shooting duelers you'll die in 2-3 hits to the shoulders.

Er...no one is talking about 1-dimensional characters... Try again.

 

[DeletedUser]

Third, let's say that we take the premise that "Melee are cheated in terms of jobs". And, I think we have made the case clear that Ranged Weapons duelers are at a disadvantage. The relative trade off isn't necessarily equal. This is especially true dependent on what your goals for the game are...like if you want to be a dueler rather than an adventurer.

Fourth, much like the third but slightly different is the concept that two wrongs, in fact, don't make a right.

No-one is being cheated or wronged. Everyone is free to assign their skill points as they choose, it is about slightly different game strategies. If melee fighters and shooters had exactly equivalent weapons, job opportunities and skill developement (ie dodge and vigor were one colour, same as aim and shooting, reflex and toughness were together with health) the game would lose lots of its strategic variety.

 

[DeletedUser]

Er...as opposed to Melee duelers in what way?

Simple fact that they gain more xp from jobs, in w3 my hardest opponents are all except 1 shooters (about 4 shooters), and it isn't just me, they can beat up pretty much anyone it's just that they don't see the use to do it as they gain less xp dueling + more danger than when doing their normal jobs.

So, instead of finding a solution, you advocate exploiting a problem.

How is it a problem? I suggest you to exploit a game aspect if you wish to lose another game aspect... get defence and less jobs.

Er...no one is talking about 1-dimensional characters... Try again.

You miss the point there, you said aim/dodge/hp are the main dueling skills and should be better than the defencive ones, well they are, go for higher dodge and you'll beat the defence character up.

BTW, any reason why you got lowest amount of lost duels in w5's top 15 and yet say that defensive characters are overpowered?

another btw, characters aren't perfect, there are always builds to counter them, high shooting/vigor characters (if having enough hp to live throu the duel) can beat defencive melee characters easily, defencive melee can beat average melee/shooting duelers his lvl and those can beat high vigor/shooting (if they got high enough dodge for it).

 

[DeletedUser]

Simple fact that they gain more xp from jobs, in w3 my hardest opponents are all except 1 shooters (about 4 shooters), and it isn't just me, they can beat up pretty much anyone it's just that they don't see the use to do it as they gain less xp dueling + more danger than when doing their normal jobs.

Experiences vary. The hardest opponents are all Melee for me. By far.

How is it a problem? I suggest you to exploit a game aspect if you wish to lose another game aspect... get defence and less jobs.

It is a problem if it is imbalanced. And it clearly is. Making the suggestion that everyone who wants to duel be a Melee dueler is not a solution. It is an explotation of the problem.

You miss the point there, you said aim/dodge/hp are the main dueling skills and should be better than the defencive ones, well they are, go for higher dodge and you'll beat the defence character up.

Again, that doesn't necessarily work... I hit them for 5 shots doing 20 points each (that is with over 100 shooting). I get hit ONCE and they win the duel. I have to be extremely lucky with my dodges or I am beaten.

BTW, any reason why you got lowest amount of lost duels in w5's top 15 and yet say that defensive characters are overpowered?

Obviously, because I pick my battles... I tend to try not to bully people -- attack people once an hour for 3 hours until they pass out, attack the same people over and over again to create a war between towns, etc. I tend to try to make friends with my enemies. I will strike up a friendly banter with people who beat me. Usually when I do that, they don't pick on me for XP every day, all day long.

(this is also a great way to learn some tips from more experienced players as you are leveling up)

another btw, characters aren't perfect, there are always builds to counter them, high shooting/vigor characters (if having enough hp to live throu the duel) can beat defencive melee characters easily, defencive melee can beat average melee/shooting duelers his lvl and those can beat high vigor/shooting (if they got high enough dodge for it).

This really doesn't address the issue.
(btw, you don't need high HP to survive a defensive player...)

I do understand why those who are Melee duelers would want to defend spending 1 attribute point and getting 3 1/2 points towards dueling... Doesn't make it right, however.

 

[DeletedUser]

No-one is being cheated or wronged. Everyone is free to assign their skill points as they choose, it is about slightly different game strategies. If melee fighters and shooters had exactly equivalent weapons, job opportunities and skill developement (ie dodge and vigor were one colour, same as aim and shooting, reflex and toughness were together with health) the game would lose lots of its strategic variety.

You didn't get the whole "two wrongs don't make a right". I wasn't making that comment in terms of someone being "wronged". I made that comment in terms of, if there is an imbalance between melee jobs and ranged jobs and there is an imbalance between melee dueling ability and ranged dueling ability, those two "wrongs" (imbalances) do not somehow cancel each other out. They are still imbalances.

But, you selectively responded to my post, so I assume that you agreed with the rest of my points.

As for adding "color" to the game, should any amount of imbalance be justified based on adding "color" to the game? How far are you willing to take this argument?

 

[DeletedUser]

Experiences vary. The hardest opponents are all Melee for me. By far.
Then be it, my hardest opponent are shooters.


It is a problem if it is imbalanced. And it clearly is. Making the suggestion that everyone who wants to duel be a Melee dueler is not a solution. It is an explotation of the problem.
I never told you to be a melee dueler, you can be a shooter with high defence, I know at least one doing it.


Again, that doesn't necessarily work... I hit them for 5 shots doing 20 points each (that is with over 100 shooting). I get hit ONCE and they win the duel. I have to be extremely lucky with my dodges or I am beaten.
So you lose against some type of duelers and complain? you want them all to be the average shooter with skills in all categories?

Obviously, because I pick my battles... I tend to try not to bully people -- attack people once an hour for 3 hours until they pass out, attack the same people over and over again to create a war between towns, etc. I tend to try to make friends with my enemies. I will strike up a friendly banter with people who beat me. Usually when I do that, they don't pick on me for XP every day, all day long.



This really doesn't address the issue.
(btw, you don't need high HP to survive a defensive player...

I do understand why those who are Melee duelers would want to defend spending 1 attribute point and getting 3 1/2 points towards dueling... Doesn't make it right, however.
Guess what, dexterity makes 3 points toward dueling, 1 aim for shooters, 1 aim for melee and 1 shooting. With your logic that's how it works, and since you said hp is useless against defence ones and they are the biggest threats in your opinion, well that makes 2½ dueling skills for a melee dueler.

See, I can use numbers to my advantage aswell.

Anyway, here's something for you to think of:

you're lvl 52 with 100 shooting and a ~70 dmg weapon so you spent all attributes in dex (normal for a ranged dueler) and 48 skills in shooting (well not really since you got gears but meh)
there is that lvl 52 melee dueler (well not really since he got real bad jobs so he's actually lvl 45 but who cares), he spend all attributes in strenght so got 26 reflex, he then decides to put 48 points into reflex to defend against you wich adds up to 74 protection.
There still seems to be a gap of 100 dmg or so...

What I mean there is that he putted his extra points into defence to be able to beat players like you, you didn't put extra points into shooting since you wanted to be able to beat another kind of players, wich needed an other kind of build.

 

[DeletedUser]

Guess what, dexterity makes 3 points toward dueling, 1 aim for shooters, 1 aim for melee and 1 shooting. With your logic that's how it works, and since you said hp is useless against defence ones and they are the biggest threats in your opinion, well that makes 2½ dueling skills for a melee dueler.

What a load of bull and you know it.

In that case, STR makes 1 point of Vigor towards Melee, 1 point of Vigor towards Ranged, 1 Hit Point towards towards Melee, 1 Hit Point towards Ranged, 1 Toughness against Melee and .5 Reflex against Shooters...

You completely disregard the fact that Reflex and Toughness are two separate skills. Aim is not a separate skill against Melee and Ranged duelers...

you're lvl 52 with 100 shooting and a ~70 dmg weapon so you spent all attributes in dex (normal for a ranged dueler) and 48 skills in shooting (well not really since you got gears but meh)

I said "over 100" shooting. I'm deliberately not giving my stats away...

there is that lvl 52 melee dueler (well not really since he got real bad jobs so he's actually lvl 45 but who cares)

I don't know where you're getting this crap from. My highest XP job at level 52 gives 45% XP... Every two hours, I get a whopping 75 XP or so. Considering the jobs that Melee get early, he probably has better equipment (more money) and from the early jobs, made more XP (as paltry as it is).

he spend all attributes in strenght so got 26 reflex, he then decides to put 48 points into reflex to defend against you wich adds up to 74 protection.
There still seems to be a gap of 100 dmg or so...

So with the 52 points in STR, he's got 52 Hit Points, Vigor and Toughness and a 26 Reflex. Let's put it all together.

Note: This person has no dodging or aim at this point.

Whereas I, if I spent all of my points in Dex, have 52 Aim and Shooting.

Note: I have no hit points or dodging at this point.

Now you want to assign points to other skills.

The shooter puts 48 points into Shooting to make 100 shooting.

The Melee puts 48 points into Reflex to make 74 Reflex (and also gets an additional 24 points for Toughness).

So, Shooter has:
100 Shooting
52 Aim

Melee has:
52 Vigor
76 Toughness (with the bonus from the reflex)
52 Hit Points
74 Reflex (with bonus from toughness)

You were saying?

What I mean there is that he putted his extra points into defence to be able to beat players like you, you didn't put extra points into shooting since you wanted to be able to beat another kind of players, wich needed an other kind of build.

You still didn't get it.

 

[DeletedUser]

What a load of bull and you know it.

In that case, STR makes 1 point of Vigor towards Melee, 1 point of Vigor towards Ranged, 1 Hit Point towards towards Melee, 1 Hit Point towards Ranged, 1 Toughness against Melee and .5 Reflex against Shooters...

You completely disregard the fact that Reflex and Toughness are two separate skills. Aim is not a separate skill against Melee and Ranged duelers...

reflex/toughness are both used in half the duels, aim, shooting, vigor, dodge are in all duels you will do, to make it fairer they added an extra defence from the other defence so you don't have to spend double the skills to be able to defend properly. Dodge makes you defend against everyone but isn't a job skill so instead you can spend 1.5x the points to more or less have the same results (get hit less) while having some pretty bad jobs in exchange.
1 point in toughness isn't 1,5 as you said, it's more like 0,75 since it affects half the duels with 1 point and half the duels with 0,5 point.


So, Shooter has:
100 Shooting
52 Aim

Melee has:
52 Vigor
76 Toughness (with the bonus from the reflex)
52 Hit Points
74 Reflex (with bonus from toughness)

You were saying?

He doesn't have any aim and you can still hit 100s on him, wich is the same as he can hit, if he manages to.

You still didn't get it.

I do, I made my characters for some kind of dueling you made yours for other, we both beat some players and get beaten

toughness and reflex both affects only half the duels, they can't both be used in the same one, juts like appearance and tactic (wich barely anyone knows how they really work), so since you got to use 1,5x the points for a total effect, I don't see where the problem is.

 

[DeletedUser]

reflex/toughness are both used in half the duels, aim, shooting, vigor, dodge are in all duels you will do, to make it fairer they added an extra defence from the other defence so you don't have to spend double the skills to be able to defend properly. Dodge makes you defend against everyone but isn't a job skill so instead you can spend 1.5x the points to more or less have the same results (get hit less) while having some pretty bad jobs in exchange.
1 point in toughness isn't 1,5 as you said, it's more like 0,75 since it affects half the duels with 1 point and half the duels with 0,5 point.

Again, if you are going to break it up that way, then Hit Points are used in BOTH kinds of Duels.... Same with Vigor. You're trying to compare apples and bicycle tires...

He doesn't have any aim and you can still hit 100s on him, wich is the same as he can hit, if he manages to.

Oh, come on...again, we are not talking about one-dimensional characters. Our examples were extremely simplistic. If you really think that a dueler could be successful with 100 shooting and 52 aim at level 52 (no points in Hit Points, Dodge, Tactics or Appearance)...then it's useless to even try to have this discussion with you...

I do, I made my characters for some kind of dueling you made yours for other, we both beat some players and get beaten

No, you really didn't...

toughness and reflex both affects only half the duels, they can't both be used in the same one, juts like appearance and tactic (wich barely anyone knows how they really work), so since you got to use 1,5x the points for a total effect, I don't see where the problem is.

Actually, the way the formula currently works, they do affect all duels. Toughness is 100 percent affective against Melee and 50% affective vs Shooters and vise-versa.

But, the point is that they are SEPARATE skills. Aim is not a separate skill vs. Shooters and Melee. Nor are Hit Points, Vigor, Shooting or Dodging. So trying to claim that Aim should count for double is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[DeletedUser]

First, this is from a few posts back:

2. Resistance / Toughness is arraigned to benefit Melee based duelers much more than Ranged duelers. For every 1 point of Strength, the Melee dueler gets 3 and 1/2 points towards dueling (Vigor, Toughness, Hit Points and half a point of Reflexes).

To compare, the Shooting dueler gets only 2 points from Dexterity: Aim and Shooting. That's your aguement, right?
Well then, you're the Shooting dueler, why aren't you pure Strength then? That would give you 1 Toughness, 1 Hit Points and half a point of Reflexes for a grand total of 2.5 points! So Strength is obviously better for shooters than Dexterity!

Actually, the way the formula currently works, they do affect all duels. Toughness is 100 percent affective against Melee and 50% affective vs Shooters and vise-versa.

But, the point is that they are SEPARATE skills. Aim is not a separate skill vs. Shooters and Melee. Nor are Hit Points, Vigor, Shooting or Dodging. So trying to claim that Aim should count for double is absolutely ridiculous.

Let me put this in steps.

Aim works in a duel against a shooter (1 point!).
Aim works in a duel against a melee'er (1 point!).
Reflexes work 100% against a shooter (1 point!).
Reflexes work 50% against a melee'er (0.5 points!).
Toughness works 50% against a shooter (0.5 points!).
Toughness works 100% against a melee'er (1 point!).

So, let's assume that your opponents are split with the exact same amount of shooters and melee'ers [which I know isn't a word ]. Then the averaged 'points' of the three skills are:

Aim ~ 1 value-point per duel
Reflexes ~ 0.75 value-points per duel
Toughness ~ 0.75 value-points per duel

 

[DeletedUser]

But, the point is that they are SEPARATE skills. Aim is not a separate skill vs. Shooters and Melee. Nor are Hit Points, Vigor, Shooting or Dodging. So trying to claim that Aim should count for double is absolutely ridiculous.

Aim is used for both shooter and melee opponents, aswell as vigor hp shooting dodging.
Toughness and reflex are both used for one kind of duel and half it's value for the other kind.
you can either say aim counts double and tough/reflex counts 1,5 or aim counts once and reflex/tough 0,75.

No, you really didn't...

How do you know how I made my character? I made it to beat the most dueler there were at the time, now alot have started to reskill to beat me so I got to reskill to get back on top.
They increase their dmg I increase my def, they increase their def I increase my dmg.

 

[DeletedUser]

toughness and reflex both affects only half the duels, they can't both be used in the same one, juts like appearance and tactic (wich barely anyone knows how they really work), so since you got to use 1,5x the points for a total effect, I don't see where the problem is.

Well, dodging and aiming do not influence duels as you might think, 1 on 1. Because they influence the probability of getting hit / hitting. You can still hit 3 times against same dodging and do the same damage. So there's a difference from tough / relfex where all hits will decrease with 1 point.

Now, tough and reflex affect ALL duels, not half, we went into that pages above when some found out that 0.5 reflex adds up in melee attacks and 0.5 tough adds up in range attacks. While appearance and tactics only influence one type of duel (where you are attacker or attacked), tough and reflex affect all duels.

Let me help you with another example.
Melee puts 1 point in strength. he gains 1 point in attacking power, 1 point in toughness and 0.5 points in reflex (check above if you want to verify) + extra 10 life which is good in duels too.
Range puts 1 point in dexte. he gains 1 point in attacking power and 1 point in aiming.
Who's got the biggest gain?
Let's put it in a table

        power      |   attack type   |   shield A    |   shield B
melee:    +1       |        A        |      +1       |      +.5
range:    +1       |        B        |      0        |        0

Now, really, but pls, really, who you think has more points gained above? (sum the bonuses if you want)