Vigor & Weapon Damage vs Toughness !?!

[DeletedUser]

Well, dodging and aiming do not influence duels as you might think, 1 on 1. Because they influence the probability of getting hit / hitting. You can still hit 3 times against same dodging and do the same damage. So there's a difference from tough / relfex where all hits will decrease with 1 point.

Now, tough and reflex affect ALL duels, not half, we went into that pages above when some found out that 0.5 reflex adds up in melee attacks and 0.5 tough adds up in range attacks. While appearance and tactics only influence one type of duel (where you are attacker or attacked), tough and reflex affect all duels.
Have you ran experiments saying appearance/tactic didn't affect the other kind? I sure as hell didn't read any on any forum (.net and .de), no one bothers looking for these 2 and most top duelers have very low of them, they are mostly there as a add up for jobs.

Let me help you with another example.
Melee puts 1 point in strength. he gains 1 point in attacking power, 1 point in toughness and 0.5 points in reflex (check above if you want to verify) + extra 10 life which is good in duels too.
Range puts 1 point in dexte. he gains 1 point in attacking power and 1 point in aiming.
Who's got the biggest gain?

melee by 0,75 pts

Let's put it in a table

        power      |   attack type   |   shield A    |   shield B
melee:    +1       |        A        |      +1       |      +.5
range:    +1       |        B        |      0        |        0

Now, really, but pls, really, who you think has more points gained above? (sum the bonuses if you want)

It has already been said many times, strenght gets you a slight advantage in duels while dex one in jobs.

BTW: I just went through all worlds in wich I can access without making a new account and I found 3 thefbiman... all 3 were melee. Irony much?

 

[DeletedUser]

To compare, the Shooting dueler gets only 2 points from Dexterity: Aim and Shooting. That's your aguement, right?
Well then, you're the Shooting dueler, why aren't you pure Strength then? That would give you 1 Toughness, 1 Hit Points and half a point of Reflexes for a grand total of 2.5 points! So Strength is obviously better for shooters than Dexterity!

Another person who would rather exploit the problem rather than find a solution....

Let me put this in steps.

Aim works in a duel against a shooter (1 point!).
Aim works in a duel against a melee'er (1 point!).
Reflexes work 100% against a shooter (1 point!).
Reflexes work 50% against a melee'er (0.5 points!).
Toughness works 50% against a shooter (0.5 points!).
Toughness works 100% against a melee'er (1 point!).

So, let's assume that your opponents are split with the exact same amount of shooters and melee'ers [which I know isn't a word ]. Then the averaged 'points' of the three skills are:

Aim ~ 1 value-point per duel
Reflexes ~ 0.75 value-points per duel
Toughness ~ 0.75 value-points per duel

Er...you didn't get it. This conversation is in relation to Melee duelers that will put points towards STR vs. Shooters who will put points towards Dex.

So, on the Dex side we have:
Aim ~ 1 value-point per duel
Shooting ~ 1 value-point per duel

And on the STR side we have:
Vigor ~ 1 value-point per duel
Toughness ~ .75 value-point per duel
Hit Points ~ 1 value-point per duel

Now this is assuming your formula....dispite the fact that these are TWO SEPARATE SKILLS....

 

[DeletedUser]

Another person who would rather exploit the problem rather than find a solution....



Er...you didn't get it. This conversation is in relation to Melee duelers that will put points towards STR vs. Shooters who will put points towards Dex.

So, on the Dex side we have:
Aim ~ 1 value-point per duel
Shooting ~ 1 value-point per duel

And on the STR side we have:
Vigor ~ 1 value-point per duel
Toughness ~ .75 value-point per duel
Hit Points ~ 1 value-point per duel

Now this is assuming your formula....dispite the fact that these are TWO SEPARATE SKILLS....

exactly, 2 separate skills, wich means you got to spend 2 points to get it affecting equally all duels.

 

[DeletedUser]

It has already been said many times, strenght gets you a slight advantage in duels while dex one in jobs.

BTW: I just went through all worlds in wich I can access without making a new account and I found 3 thefbiman... all 3 were melee. Irony much?

no, not really. It's exactly like saying that even if many people don't get my point, it's ironic that i'm also a human.

I took the melee path as i was a builder. Pretty much the same as you are. And as a builder i put more atts on strength. You see an irony here? :unsure:

 

[DeletedUser]

exactly, 2 separate skills, wich means you got to spend 2 points to get it affecting equally all duels.

Yes, the SHOOTER would...

Of course, the Melee gets one of those (and thereby half of the other) just by virtue of spending his attribute points towards his damage skill...

 

[DeletedUser]

BTW: I just went through all worlds in wich I can access without making a new account and I found 3 thefbiman... all 3 were melee. Irony much?

Irony or intellectual honesty?

 

[DeletedUser]

Just to add a bit to my last reply:

I do agree that a melee dueler will gain (slightly) more from a point of strength than a ranged dueler will gain from a point of dexterity. But your way of counting the points isn't correct - see my last post.

It was for exactly this reason that I picked a melee soldier for my World 9 Character. To get more bang for my attribute points.

However, a ranged dueler will be able to use a much higher value of shooting for jobs, and will get better (especially xp-wise) jobs. This is why my next character will be a ranged dueler.

EDIT: I forgot my main point!

I'm happy for this difference. Shooters do get more jobs, but less dueling power per attribute point. Melee'ers get more dueling power per attribute point but worse jobs from their vigor. You call this 2 different imbalances, but I agree very strongly on this point! If the game was balanced the way you want it to be (shooter and melee'ers getting acces to equally good jobs and getting equal benefit from their attributes) all characters would practically be the same...

Second Edit: This will be my last post here, there has been no progress in 4 pages of arguing, and I don't see any hope of progress in the next 4 either.

 

[DeletedUser]

Just to add a bit to my last reply:

I do agree that a melee dueler will gain (slightly) more from a point of strength than a ranged dueler will gain from a point of dexterity. But your way of counting the points isn't correct - see my last post.

It was for exactly this reason that I picked a melee soldier for my World 9 Character. To get more bang for my attribute points.

However, a ranged dueler will be able to use a much higher value of shooting for jobs, and will get better (especially xp-wise) jobs. This is why my next character will be a ranged dueler.

i suggest you think again, a ranged soldier would be much better

 

[DeletedUser]

I do agree that a melee dueler will gain (slightly) more from a point of strength than a ranged dueler will gain from a point of dexterity. But your way of counting the points isn't correct - see my last post.

Your last post was inaccurate.../shrug

It was for exactly this reason that I picked a melee soldier for my World 9 Character. To get more bang for my attribute points.

No doubt...

However, a ranged dueler will be able to use a much higher value of shooting for jobs, and will get better (especially xp-wise) jobs. This is why my next character will be a ranged dueler.

Again, a dueler that concentrates on DUELING and is a Shooter, won't get those XP jobs for a long, long time. And when they do get them, do you know how little XP those jobs give compared to the level requirements?

Also, you leave out comparisons of low level XP jobs, low level money jobs, and mid-ranged money jobs....

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm happy for this difference. Shooters do get more jobs, but less dueling power per attribute point. Melee'ers get more dueling power per attribute point but worse jobs from their vigor. You call this 2 different imbalances, but I agree very strongly on this point! If the game was balanced the way you want it to be (shooter and melee'ers getting acces to equally good jobs and getting equal benefit from their attributes) all characters would practically be the same...

Yes, I'm sure you are happy for this difference... Not only did you take this option, but you suggest that others do so as well rather than to try to fix the issue.

 

[DeletedUser]

Melee Player are better in fight then Firearm Player ONLY if they put point in toughness and/or reflex. If the player only use the "base" toughness given by the Strengh, the effect of the tougness in fight even against melee player is 0.

More to say, Life does so little about result of a duel, there is ways to not take or take only a few damage.

So the 75% melee player that don't put point in toughness or reflex are not using their point and are finaly not as good as firearm player are.

This is just directly coming from the damage formula.

 

[DeletedUser]

Melee Player are better in fight then Firearm Player ONLY if they put point in toughness and/or reflex. If the player only use the "base" toughness given by the Strengh, the effect of the tougness in fight even against melee player is 0.

More to say, Life does so little about result of a duel, there is ways to not take or take only a few damage.

So the 75% melee player that don't put point in toughness or reflex are not using their point and are finaly not as good as firearm player are.

This is just directly coming from the damage formula.

yes, and also from the formula you "missed" to take into account the fact that if they focus on vigor they'll to far more damage on the shooter if that one doesn't put points in tough and/or reflex. You're just seeing 1 side of the fight

 

[DeletedUser]

It's false, i 'am now making a post with the EXACT formula, you will understand.

 

[DeletedUser]

It's false, i 'am now making a post with the EXACT formula, you will understand.

ok, i just wait for it. i want to see how reflex isn't as good as toughness is and how 1 shoot is way better than 1 vigor

 

[DeletedUser]

You can read it now here :

http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?p=207249#post207249

So what you told is true as i said in the topic ONLY if the Melee character put extra point in toughness/reflex and is not only using the "base strength"

 

[DeletedUser]

You can read it now here :

http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?p=207249#post207249

So what you told is true as i said in the topic ONLY if the Melee character put extra point in toughness/reflex and is not only using the "base strength"

Sorry, you're going to have to prove it by more than just your say-so. Please read this thread: http://translate.google.com/transla...rum.the-west.de/showthread.php?t=19201&page=4

Note the post by eiswiesel, the MAYOR (aka, developer).

 

[DeletedUser]

even so, your formulas prove my and others' point.

For melee :
Vigor / (Toughness+Reflex/2)

For Firearms :
Shooting /(Toughness/2 + Reflex)

This give a multiplier between 0 to 2 (2 is the MAX)

Putting 1 at point towards strength, you gain one vigor and one tough, thus increasing both your damage on opponent as you get higher Vigor / (Toughness+Reflex/2) report on the target and also decreasing the damage you take since both fractions are invert proportional with toughness.

Putting 1 at point towards dexterity, you gain one shooting, thus increasing only your damage on opponent as you get higher Shooting / (Toughness+Reflex/2) report on the target.

the others are just probabilities.
For example, the probability to hit with aiming A one guy with defense D is:
P1 = 1 - (D+1)/2A
for example, if you aim is the same as the enemy's dodge, then P=1-(D+1)/2D= 1/2 - 1/2D, a little under 50% as it's normal since on tie you still miss.
Having +1 at aiming is nice, with the formula will get to:
P2 = 1 - (D+1)/2(A+1)
the % gain of probabilities is
dP = P2/P1 - 1 = (4A - D + 1) / A(2A-D-1)
Now think on this, a dueler with 50 points in duel, and he now gains an extra point. he'll have 51 points.
If he fights a guy with let's say 10 dodge (low compared to his aim), he will gain:
dP = 4.3%, can this be considered a big gain?
In this case, the chance was 80.4% and now is 83.4%.
And as his aiming will increase, the effect will diminish. For example at aiming 70 against the same dodge, the gain will only be:
dP = 3%, chance going from 85.9% to 88.3%

As you might see, the impact of good aiming diminishes as the aim improves, giving you a little increase in probability to hit.
In the same time, effect of increasing the constant and also is giving you a constant increase in inflicted damage.

 

[DeletedUser]

Exact, but most Melee put one extra point / level in vigor.... and so against them the toughness alone is almost useless.

 

[DeletedUser]

Exact, but most Melee put one extra point / level in vigor.... and so against them the toughness alone is almost useless.

But your formula is wrong, anyway....so....

 

[DeletedUser]

Oh no it's right, does'nt matter you tell what ever you want. The formula is totaly and exactly right. The only thing that i doubt, is your math level.