DeletedUser
They have no control over whom you recruit before the town is founded, which is why towns were recruiting before w8 and w9 opened.
It should clearly start with a D.
They have no control over whom you recruit before the town is founded, which is why towns were recruiting before w8 and w9 opened.
It should clearly start with a D.
DeletedUser
Or an F.
DeletedUser
Or just let players figure it out for themselves. There is no right way or wrong way to run a town. What one player considers a successful town another player may not. Leave the noobs alone.
Diggo11
Well-Known Member
I am a secondary Founder, but have never run a town myself. Honestly I think one of you with more experience should write it, possibly Violette 'cause I know she runs her town well, but dunno about the rest of you.
So while we are at it lets delete the Help files and let the noobs figure out how to play by themselves?
As I see it there is nothing wrong with a guide. After all its just to give you a "heads up";it doesn't force you to do anything.
DeletedUser
Now Diggo, first I'd like to say thank you for giving me an awesome quote for my sig. Here comes the part.
What was suggested was restrictions put in place for new players to overcome before they could start a town. First it was reaching a certain level, then it was 200 hours play time, then games or a quest. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask what are you going to teach them about running a town. No one has answered that question yet. You must agree there is more than one way to have a successful town.
First you must define successful. No one is ever going to agree on a definition for that. Then you must have a guide for being successful. Where to put it? It can go on the forums but not everyone reads the forums. It can go in the Help File but not everyone reads that as we have so painfully witnessed by the questions on this forum.
The only possible way to do any of that is to have a screen pop up when you are founding a town. There is no guarantee that anyone will pay attention to that. Even if they do we are still stuck with what to put in the guide. It's an impossible task and you can not teach common sense.
I ask again...what is the harm in letting anyone with $300 start a town.
part.What was suggested was restrictions put in place for new players to overcome before they could start a town. First it was reaching a certain level, then it was 200 hours play time, then games or a quest. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask what are you going to teach them about running a town. No one has answered that question yet. You must agree there is more than one way to have a successful town.
First you must define successful. No one is ever going to agree on a definition for that. Then you must have a guide for being successful. Where to put it? It can go on the forums but not everyone reads the forums. It can go in the Help File but not everyone reads that as we have so painfully witnessed by the questions on this forum.
The only possible way to do any of that is to have a screen pop up when you are founding a town. There is no guarantee that anyone will pay attention to that. Even if they do we are still stuck with what to put in the guide. It's an impossible task and you can not teach common sense.
I ask again...what is the harm in letting anyone with $300 start a town.
DeletedUser
This is my question exactly. Apart from maybe taking a spot that someone else might have used, what is the problem? From my brief trip to W7, which has been running for quite a while, there were still heaps of spots left, and in W5 there may not be as many untouched town sites, but ghost towns are popping up all the time.
Diggo11
Well-Known Member
Yes I had a sig space in mindNow Diggo, first I'd like to say thank you for giving me an awesome quote for my sig. Here comes the
What was suggested was restrictions put in place for new players to overcome before they could start a town. First it was reaching a certain level, then it was 200 hours play time, then games or a quest. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask what are you going to teach them about running a town. No one has answered that question yet. You must agree there is more than one way to have a successful town.
First you must define successful. No one is ever going to agree on a definition for that. Then you must have a guide for being successful. Where to put it? It can go on the forums but not everyone reads the forums. It can go in the Help File but not everyone reads that as we have so painfully witnessed by the questions on this forum.
The only possible way to do any of that is to have a screen pop up when you are founding a town. There is no guarantee that anyone will pay attention to that. Even if they do we are still stuck with what to put in the guide. It's an impossible task and you can not teach common sense.
I ask again...what is the harm in letting anyone with $300 start a town.
Anyway put it in the Help Files and add a link to it on the Found Town screen.
Successful town: a growing town filled with happy and active members. I think that pretty much everyones definition of a successful town.
DeletedUser
The best way to learn about running a town is to run one. The second best way is to join one run by someone with more experience than you have. My suggestion essentially steers people in the direction of the latter on their way to the former.
Answering that would require information not available, namely: how many people get frustrated with the game and quit simply because they begin playing and quickly start a town which fails to catch on? And then, how many of those might stay and become regulars if they had a different initial town experience?
This suggestion presumes that the quantities are significant enough to bother about. Without information, that's just a presumption.
A further presumption is that the devs would want to retain those players if a practical method of doing so can be devised. IMO that one, at least, is a safe bet.
DeletedUser
Luap I understand what you are trying to do. As you just said though, running a town is the best way to learn how to run a town. You can not teach people that. If you make that a requirement to start a town then everybody has to do it. Even folks that have run a town before. It just holds up progress.
Your reasoning that people quit the game because their towns fail is faulty. There are plenty of towns on each server that have room for new members. I have yet to see a town running with 50 full time members. Most have 40 members and below. It's not like players with failed towns have nowhere to go. I would bet $10 more people quit the game over dueling, boredom, or deciding it just isn't their kind of game than any other reason.
My initial questions weren't really answered.
1. What defines a successful town?
As Violette has shared earlier, some people are completely happy with having just a couple of members and are not worried about maxing out their town in a short period of time. Some define success as being maxed first, others through strength in their mortician record, many in having an active fun forum, and still many players have other definitions for success. Some towns are set up as outposts for dueling purposes only, some players set up a town as an experiment where they are the only member and they like it that way. Some players believe empire building is the only way to be successful. The list goes on and on.
2. What are you going to teach them about running a town?
Well first you have to cover all the different definitions of a successful town. How do you teach them recruitment or management. How do you teach them how to keep the forums active. How do you teach them a good ratio on the different character classes to have (that would be a highly debatable issue right there). How do you teach them military strategy and construction order (also highly debatable issues). You can not teach that sort of stuff because everyone has their own goals and ideas.
3. What does it hurt to let them start a town when they get $300?
It is not hurting you. It is not impeding your game play or making you change your strategy. When I say 'you' I mean that as in 'other players'. Players come and go for a variety of reasons. As you pointed out in another thread, look at all the inactive level 1's out there. Ulthor and the monkey quit. They certainly didn't give up on the game because of a failed town. I really don't think this is as big of a problem as some are making it out to be.
Placing restrictions on new players is not going to make them stay in the game. It may discourage many of them. It is not our place as players to suggest or impose such restrictions on them. We were all new players at some point and we learned.
Even if you get all of that sorted out you have no guarantee anyone will take the advice given to them. I think it is presumptuous for anyone to think that their way of running a town is the right way and then try to push it onto other people. I really think this idea should just die even though it has good intentions behind it.
Your reasoning that people quit the game because their towns fail is faulty. There are plenty of towns on each server that have room for new members. I have yet to see a town running with 50 full time members. Most have 40 members and below. It's not like players with failed towns have nowhere to go. I would bet $10 more people quit the game over dueling, boredom, or deciding it just isn't their kind of game than any other reason.
My initial questions weren't really answered.
1. What defines a successful town?
As Violette has shared earlier, some people are completely happy with having just a couple of members and are not worried about maxing out their town in a short period of time. Some define success as being maxed first, others through strength in their mortician record, many in having an active fun forum, and still many players have other definitions for success. Some towns are set up as outposts for dueling purposes only, some players set up a town as an experiment where they are the only member and they like it that way. Some players believe empire building is the only way to be successful. The list goes on and on.
2. What are you going to teach them about running a town?
Well first you have to cover all the different definitions of a successful town. How do you teach them recruitment or management. How do you teach them how to keep the forums active. How do you teach them a good ratio on the different character classes to have (that would be a highly debatable issue right there). How do you teach them military strategy and construction order (also highly debatable issues). You can not teach that sort of stuff because everyone has their own goals and ideas.
3. What does it hurt to let them start a town when they get $300?
It is not hurting you. It is not impeding your game play or making you change your strategy. When I say 'you' I mean that as in 'other players'. Players come and go for a variety of reasons. As you pointed out in another thread, look at all the inactive level 1's out there. Ulthor and the monkey quit. They certainly didn't give up on the game because of a failed town. I really don't think this is as big of a problem as some are making it out to be.
Placing restrictions on new players is not going to make them stay in the game. It may discourage many of them. It is not our place as players to suggest or impose such restrictions on them. We were all new players at some point and we learned.
Even if you get all of that sorted out you have no guarantee anyone will take the advice given to them. I think it is presumptuous for anyone to think that their way of running a town is the right way and then try to push it onto other people. I really think this idea should just die even though it has good intentions behind it.
Last edited by a moderator:
DeletedUser
You write a lot but do not use logic correctly. The presence of other towns with space in them is totally irrelevant to the question of how many people quit over frustration from their own town failure. It's like saying nobody could be dropping out of the "love game" over frustration since there are still available singles of both sexes.
I didn't read much of the rest. The suggestion isn't catching on; no need to flog it further.
DeletedUser
By not reading the rest you have put yourself in the position of entirely misrepresenting her logic, thus creating a logical fallacy of your own. Getting the last word in is all very well and good, but when it is a straw man coupled with an insult, it might have been wiser to end the discussion with a little more grace.
Diggo11
Well-Known Member
1. What defines a successful town?
A successful town is a growing town filled with happy and active members. All size towns must be happy and active to be successful yeah? And every good town will grow, whether it is a building and member per day or per month.
2. What are you going to teach them about running a town?
Q. How do you teach them recruitment or management.
A. Tell them not to spam invites but to send polite telegrams to nearby people.
Q. How do you teach them how to keep the forums active.
A. Tell them to organise your forums well, be friendly and lead by example.
Q. How do you teach them a good ratio on the different character classes to have (that would be a highly debatable issue right there).
A. Tell them to not favour any class and be fair and equal. Start with a 1:1:1:1 ratio and vary as needed.
Q. How do you teach them military strategy and construction order (also highly debatable issues).
A. Go through the list of buildings and explain the importance; then let them use this information to decide for themselves.
S. You can not teach that sort of stuff because everyone has their own goals and ideas.
R. So you give them the basic knowledge in the form of a guide and let them develop their own style of running a town.
3. What does it hurt to let them start a town when they get $300?
First impressions can mean alot. Giving people the knowledge so they can run a successful town will make their experience just so much better. We don't know how many potential regulars quit because of bad first impressions, but wouldn't it be better if we could say 0! Yes Ulthor and Monkey quit, but that is irrelevant to the issue.
A successful town is a growing town filled with happy and active members. All size towns must be happy and active to be successful yeah? And every good town will grow, whether it is a building and member per day or per month.
2. What are you going to teach them about running a town?
Q. How do you teach them recruitment or management.
A. Tell them not to spam invites but to send polite telegrams to nearby people.
Q. How do you teach them how to keep the forums active.
A. Tell them to organise your forums well, be friendly and lead by example.
Q. How do you teach them a good ratio on the different character classes to have (that would be a highly debatable issue right there).
A. Tell them to not favour any class and be fair and equal. Start with a 1:1:1:1 ratio and vary as needed.
Q. How do you teach them military strategy and construction order (also highly debatable issues).
A. Go through the list of buildings and explain the importance; then let them use this information to decide for themselves.
S. You can not teach that sort of stuff because everyone has their own goals and ideas.
R. So you give them the basic knowledge in the form of a guide and let them develop their own style of running a town.
3. What does it hurt to let them start a town when they get $300?
First impressions can mean alot. Giving people the knowledge so they can run a successful town will make their experience just so much better. We don't know how many potential regulars quit because of bad first impressions, but wouldn't it be better if we could say 0! Yes Ulthor and Monkey quit, but that is irrelevant to the issue.
I agree placing restrictions is harsh. But not giving people any prior knowledge is also a bit unfair. What harm would a simple guide do?Denisero said:
Last edited:
DeletedUser
If any one is interested, I will try and write up a beginner's guide (with flexibility for the various goals) when I get a chance.
Diggo11
Well-Known Member
Did you read Version 1.8 in The Western Star carefully?
DeletedUser
Apparently not, if you think there is something in there which is going to cover all the basics of running a town.
DeletedUser10480
Worst idea yet. Ordinarily this person has decent things to say but I can't think of a worse idea than this.
His idea is: Noobs can't make an account.
What's funny is that he calls it a 'free-market solution'. Like most self professed Ron Paul supporters they don't actually understand what the freedom in 'freedom' is that they believe in.
People in these communities should be able to seek their OWN values whether they make a small town based on dueling, croquet, baseball, or whatever.
Don't misrepresent freedom by claiming to demand that the way to achieve it is by clamping down on freedom. Leave folks alone. Things evolve on their own. There are plenty of towns that strike up peace deals based upon their specific ethics. Let them be..
edit: and the other rest of people assume he is right without examining the contradictions involved in the logic. Amazing to us who actually believe in free ideas.
His idea is: Noobs can't make an account.
What's funny is that he calls it a 'free-market solution'. Like most self professed Ron Paul supporters they don't actually understand what the freedom in 'freedom' is that they believe in.
People in these communities should be able to seek their OWN values whether they make a small town based on dueling, croquet, baseball, or whatever.
Don't misrepresent freedom by claiming to demand that the way to achieve it is by clamping down on freedom. Leave folks alone. Things evolve on their own. There are plenty of towns that strike up peace deals based upon their specific ethics. Let them be..
edit: and the other rest of people assume he is right without examining the contradictions involved in the logic. Amazing to us who actually believe in free ideas.
Last edited by a moderator:
Diggo11
Well-Known Member
Well may as well wait 'til Wednesday, if its not in there then you should write it. If Innogames had half a brain they would include such information.Apparently not, if you think there is something in there which is going to cover all the basics of running a town.
DeletedUser
Alright Vi, just for you I went back and read the whole thing. Lots of it isn't even responsive to my suggestion here, and I stand by my assessment.
That said, this suggestion obviously isn't catching on, and I don't see the point in just arguing over arguing. Can we agree to just move on?
Oh c'mon, you didn't even try!
Uh, not quite. That definitely would be the worst idea ever. :laugh:
*yawn*
Who are you, again?
Agreed, except that when designing a game system, the nature of the beast is that the developers create rules. Those rules are "by nature artificial" (oxymoron??). Take the level 10 restriction on choosing a class, for example. Why is that any less odious from a free market standpoint than a proposed restriction on town founding ability based on playing time? They are equally artificial and equally arbitrary -- and (more or less) equally easy to achieve. Both are intended not to stop anyone from doing something altogether, but to steer them in the direction of acquiring what is expected to be a reasonable degree of understanding of pertinent aspects of the game before making a serious (for a game, anyway) decision. They are both examples of a (hopefully) benevolent form of dictatorship.
Games have rules. Games are artificial. Game rules are thus artificial. None of it is purely free market; any game's rules are shaped and influenced by the people (dictators) who create them.
I'd like to point out here, FWIW, that my suggestion does not force anyone to do anything. It's a temporary restriction, IOW a "negative law" rather than one which compels action against the player's will. For example, we could propose forcing people to join towns or complete quests before they are allowed to create towns. Those would be compulsive rules, which are IMO categorically more objectionable from a freedom perspective (although perhaps still sometimes desirable within games for other reasons).
Are we even in the same thread? Hardly anyone here is agreeing with me. :laugh:
Diggo11
Well-Known Member
Denisero this is where you counter my arguments or at least say you answered all my questions.
DeletedUser
I stated my case, it still stands. You can't teach common sense. If the devs want to put a guide about founding a town in the game let them. It is not up to us to write such a guide for their game. They get paid the big bucks we get paid nothing. Suggestions and ideas are fine to submit but when we are writing content for them I think that is where the line needs to be drawn.