"Proof of God" fallacies

[DeletedUser]

I'm interested that lspiderl thought that my comment might have included him/her.

He/she is right that the bible proscribes (male) homosexuality though. Both the Old Testament and St Paul display a good dose of homophobia. Jesus, on the contrary, never pronounces on it. In spite of excluding large sections of society from his promised kingdom (those who judge, the rich etc.) he does not make any pronouncement on sexuality. In view of his general tolerance towards such hate-figures as tax-collectors, prostitutes, gentiles (Samaritans) and others, it's reasonable to assume that his attitude towards them would have been one of acceptance.

Of course, if you take the OT literally, then practising homosexuals will not be admitted to heaven - in fact, only exteremely orthodox Jews may meet the entry criteria. I guess anyone who is reading this can consider thmselves definitely excluded then.

( i didnt think it so much included me i was simply responding to the context of you statement which my previous statement rendered somewhat moot )


theres a distinct differnce between being tolerant of and loving your fellow an and supporing his sin ( as outlined according to the bible) i.e. a man should love his neighbor even if that person is a prostitute , tax collector etc even though you dont condone there actions

theres an old christian adage love the sinner hate the sin


sadly theres been a lot of chrsitans historicaly that didnt always follow that first part but most modern christians understand the differnce

i say most because like ALL things theres always a few bad apples in every group

 

[DeletedUser]

No, he preached to them, he did not approve of them.

Did anyone say he did? Not me. "Acceptance" is different.

because you dont agree with one part of the Bible that you discredit it

Well, that is the essence of critical rejection.

when Jehovah would speak to Moses or another servant, it would be Jesus that would usually be speaking in the literal sense, but it would be Jehovah's words.

Never mind that Jesus had not even been born yet!

A far as the words of the Bible go, I do not accord them any more significance than those in The Book or Mormon, The Koran or The Mahabharata. Through culture and upbringing I happen to be more familiar with them and therefore I frequently notice errors, inconsistencies and distortions involving those words. That is all they are though - mere words - and although people may endlessly argue about them and play games with them, the only thing that really matters is what kind of a human being we make of ourselves, and whether we are wise and humble enough to know the extent of our own ignorance and to be kind to others.

 

[DeletedUser]

Dude, Jesus was the The FIRST creation, didn't you ever read where Jesus said to the pharisees, "before abraham was, i have been"? The Bible refers to him as the "firstborne of creation." You really shouldn't be argueing if you don't know about any of that. Jesus was God's first creation, he was existant before anything else, before the universe, the rest of the angels, the earth, anything.

alright, now about your other point, Jesus did not accept them either, he would only accept them if they "turned around", or, repented.

And lastly, The Bible is the only book that has the power to change lives, it has the only practical counsel on virtually every subject. the Koran, Book or Mormon, nor any other "holy book" can do that, neither do any of those books contain detailed prophecies that were fulfilled, nor were they scientifically accurate thousands of years before their time.

The Bible is.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well weird!

 

[DeletedUser]

lol, will respond in detail later, but I do find it interesting that you dismiss all else posed in the old testament (killing your wife, etc), and then grab lines (incorrectly translated btw) from the old testament and treat it as gospel.

Like I said, will rebut later.

 

[DeletedUser]

then you're not a real christian.

Then what is everyone? I can guarantee you that most people who call themselves Christians, don't even attend Church on a regular basis, and don't agree with a lot of the teachings.

There are a select few, true "Christians", who will actually believe everything the Bible says, and will defend it on end.

Looking at it this way, the true religious folk are almost all gone...

it would be like a christan saying its ok to murder or steal or commit adultry

Haha You can see where I'm going, can't you?

 

[DeletedUser]

You have nothing brought to the table, my friend, you know nothing about it, further, you provide no sound explanation of it. How can you say they were incorrectly translated? you speak greek? or perhaps hebrew? No, you have no knowledge on this subject, if we were discussing how evolutionists say we came from a lump of crap, then i would listen to you, but you have proven time and again you are completely unqualified in understanding to debate these matters. So until you are, i leave you be.

 

[DeletedUser]

Then what is everyone? I can guarantee you that most people who call themselves Christians, don't even attend Church on a regular basis, and don't agree with a lot of the teachings.

There are a select few, true "Christians", who will actually believe everything the Bible says, and will defend it on end.

Looking at it this way, the true religious folk are almost all gone...
Haha You can see where I'm going, can't you?

You're name truly defines you my friend.

Do you see how you prove the Bible correct with your statements?

2 Tim. 3:1-5

(Paraphrased) In the Last Days there will be those having a form of Godly devotion, but proving false to its power.

Yes, there have always been those like that, but like you said, there is now a larger number of such ones. Marking that we are indeed in the Last Days of this system of things.

 

[DeletedUser]

Then what is everyone? I can guarantee you that most people who call themselves Christians, don't even attend Church on a regular basis, and don't agree with a lot of the teachings.

There are a select few, true "Christians", who will actually believe everything the Bible says, and will defend it on end.

Looking at it this way, the true religious folk are almost all gone...
Haha You can see where I'm going, can't you?

the bible doeesnt ask that people never sin as man is imperfect and thats immpossible but it does clearly state that man must be repentant of there sin


so if the biblical god considers homosexuality a sin than choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle is a choice to live in sin therefore meaning that individual is unrepentant therfore unforgiven

so a christian should love tehm but should not condone ther life choice and most definatly shouldnt go out of there way to support said life choice
it would be the equivilant if forgiving a multiple murderer that is still killing all while helping them load there gun and sharpen there knives


theres a clear differnce

 

[DeletedUser]

Oh, and that reminds me, xcentric, if you don't think there are many people who believe everything the Bible says and will defend despite death, take a lot at a holocaust record.

over 200,000 Jehovah's Witnesses were brutally murdered in Nazi concentration camps.

And the difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and the many jews that were in there was that the jews had no choice to be in there, they were there because of who their grandfather was. THe witnesses were in there because of who they chose to be.

Consider this account. A woman had the duty while in the concentration camps to clean the office of one of the officials. and on the table were a stack of papers that, if a witness were to sign, would state that the person would relienquish his/her faith. All they were to do was sign that paper, and leave.
She said, "in the years that i cleaned that office I never say that stack get shorter, i figured thaat they would surely try and save themselves a brutal death by just saying they weren't a Witness any more, but they didn't"

True Christians still exist, and (On Topic) unless they didn't have undeniable and unchangable faith there God, whether they died or not, the fact that their truly being a God of a resurection could have been the only thing keeping the Witnesses from giving up. I find this to be a proof of God, such immovable faith, cannot be without reason.

 

[DeletedUser1121]

that is no proof of God, those are people blinded beyond reason by a religion which will get them killed.

I would have thought: "Hey my God has given me a way to escape out of this hellhole"
Signed the paper and get out of there quicker than you can say jehowho? And i would say an extra prayer explain why i signed the paper to God. Everybody happy

 

[DeletedUser]

No, Satan gave you a way out of death, which God can save you from or give back to you. I never remember a Bible account in which a person was blessed for renouncing his faith in Jehovah.

I did not mean fully that if you were to look at that, God must exist, I was saying that nobody does it for no reason, it would take a strong one to endure such suffering if there was no sure reward for it. Each Witness in that camp knew the promise of the resurection, and them being faithful even to death, assures them of that hope. And they knew that.

 

[DeletedUser]

This is from a Jehovah's Witness site - http://jehovah.to/gen/holocaust/index.htm:

In the concentration camps, Jehovah's Witnesses were required to wear a purple triangle to distinguish them from other inmates. Many of them died from disease, hunger, exhaustion, brutal treatment, and exposure to the cold. About 10,000 Witnesses were imprisoned in concentration camps during the Nazi period. An estimated 2,500 to 5,000 died.

Without adherence to factual accuracy, no argument deserves to be taken seriously.

 

[DeletedUser]

My mistake, i was confused at the number, and added an exra zero, but still, to have endured for nothing seems a bit stupid.

 

[DeletedUser]

Interestingly, faith groups fared better in the concentration camps than others. They had less psychiatric dysfunction and post-traumatic stress, and coped better. Not just JWs, but orthodox jews, communist-party activists and others. Possibly the notion of being part of a larger whole, peer-group support or a superiority complex contributes to enhanced mental resilience to stress. This opens the door to an explanation as to why faith is a common emergent feature of all forms of society. Of course, this is what one would expect under strict Darwinian evolution - an adaptation (even in irrational one) that confers a survival advantage is preferentially favoured. The same argument has been made for homosexuality (same-sex relationships), which has been documented in nearly every extensively studied species.

 

[DeletedUser]

a very interesting discussion, it never goes anywhere when it is the subject of God, but I enjoyed it as always.


Bring on the close sign, Hell.

 

[DeletedUser]

Interestingly, faith groups fared better in the concentration camps than others. They had less psychiatric dysfunction and post-traumatic stress, and coped better. Not just JWs, but orthodox jews, communist-party activists and others. Possibly the notion of being part of a larger whole, peer-group support or a superiority complex contributes to enhanced mental resilience to stress. This opens the door to an explanation as to why faith is a common emergent feature of all forms of society. Of course, this is what one would expect under strict Darwinian evolution - an adaptation (even in irrational one) that confers a survival advantage is preferentially favoured. The same argument has been made for homosexuality (same-sex relationships), which has been documented in nearly every extensively studied species.

i REALY have to question you assertion on that last statement

as someone whos studdied animals in great detail and has delt a lot with animals the claim that animals ever express homosexualality is absurd
if your making he claim that animals humping is about sexuality you couldnt be more off base

for animals its strictly hormone driven and instinct driven males humping ther males and females humping other females is dominince assurtion and nothing to do with sexuality

i spent 10 years breeding rabbits for the pet industry and its a constant to see tehm hump one another but agian its not a case of homosexuality its all about assurting who is the dominant animal in the given space

 

[DeletedUser]

My mistake, i was confused at the number, and added an exra zero, but still, to have endured for nothing seems a bit stupid.

That would put you out by a factor of 10, but you were actually out by a factor of between 40 and 80 according to your own organisation's figures. In apologising for one mistake, you have made another.

 

[DeletedUser]

i spent 10 years breeding rabbits for the pet industry and its a constant to see tehm hump one another but agian its not a case of homosexuality its all about assurting who is the dominant animal in the given space

Well I guess as long as 2 guys go at it ONLY to 'assurt' dominance, that's not homosexuality.
I suppose something like that goes on in prisons.
I read a great article on same-sex relationships in the natural world - pair-bonded male birds raiding nests for eggs so that they could 'raise their own family', for instance. It really challenged a lot of assumptions and prejudices. If I can find it, I'll post.
[Trading in animals - that's real bad karma though]

 

[DeletedUser]

God does exist- there can be NO disproving the fact- how did the Ark get on mount Ararat- would a man just randomly build a huge boat- and remnants of the ark are STILL there- they were seen during the 2nd world war by pilots- large wooden structure- which would not decay because of the cold.
There is all the miracles that have ever happened- and you STILL dont believe-
'blessed are they which HAVE NOT SEEN and yet have believed'

Do you always need proof to find something true?

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