"Proof of God" fallacies

[DeletedUser1121]

Please spider tell me why did you post those links?
All i asked for was proof. You posted links.
What did you expect i would think those links would direct me to?
Now you are telling me the links weren't the proof i asked for but just something to throw at Hellstromm?

Maybe i asked the wrong person. Can someone provide the evidence that spider says exists? Because according to him, there is evidence out there that proofs the existance of a god beyond reasonable doubt. I am willing to listen and give arguments about every valid link i get.

I guess most of you missed this post. But now we all know the definition of evidence and proof, please provide the evidence that can be found according to spider:

a simple google search you can find a crapload of papers and blogs and studdies that give SOME evidence of creation , or various religions

I am not here to bash anything. I hope the first post showed that. I have looked at the sites and tried to find the proof there to back up the evidence.

I am even willing to change my stand in this a bit. I will reform my question:

Please provide me with the evidence that convinced you that there actually is a God.

Maybe some facts that happened to you or something in the bible in combination with other factors.

Again, not trying to bash anything, i just can't figure out why people belief and i really would like to know. This would make me understand the fact that and why people believe.
Because i envy you in some cases. Believing in a divine power does make live easier in some cases.

 

[DeletedUser1121]

Sorry, but I dissagree. Your example is flawed. Lets use a calculus texbook or a biology report made by a scientist in place of the bible. Both will be discussed numerous times by teachers and scientists. Both will be studied tremedously by students and novice biologists for hour on ends. Both groups will discuss and debate the book/report in class and on the field.

The book and report cause so much discussions because the subjects are hard to understand and needs to be questioned and learned. Yet, both provide truths put forth by mathmeticians and scientists. We can compare this to the bible and how prophets put forth the bible and it was debated and discussed by many different people over thousands of years.

Just because something is discussed and disagreed upon many times does not mean that it is not true and should be rendered useless.

Good point, but there is one thing you are missing. Papers and books about scientific/biological/mathematic issues are written based on observations and calculations.
They can be backed up by facts. The discussion is the interpertation of the facts showen by experiments or calculations.

The problem with the bible is that it can't be discussed due to the lack of facts. None of us can recreate thing that happened in the bible. A biological experiment can be done multiple times with the same outcome. This simply isn't possible with things that happened in the bible (although it would be awesome to see someone split a ocean in two parts)
So what remains for the bible is to argue over stories that can never be backed up.
This way it is multi interpretable for everybody who reads it.

 

[DeletedUser]

oh and @ desi i never said it was proof beyond a shadow of a doubt only that it was evidence in support of



@ john me posting definitions and clarifing the details was at xcentrics request which he then edited out in waht i ca only assume was an attempt to try and make me look foolish but thats why at the start of the post it states as requested

You're on the track to becoming the next Blondie! Keep up with those wrong assumptions.

 

[DeletedUser]

Please provide me with the evidence that convinced you that there actually is a God.

That night so many years ago when I finally accepted the futility of my life and put a knife to my wrist. There was a bible on my nightstand and until I gave that a chance I couldn't honestly say that I had tried everything to change my life. So I spent the next 3 days reading it from cover to cover and when I was done I spoke aloud, "it didn't work, nothing has changed". I heard a voice, yes a voice. It said, "go back and re-read the book of John" and before I could get through the first 3 verses I broke down into tears and said, "if what this book says is true then I have to know that you are real".

That was a little over 20 years ago and I'm still here. My belief in His existence is without doubt. I can't even begin to imagine the possibility that He isn't real. There is far too much evidence in my life to think that. And that's the thing about evidence in faith, it's all on the inside. The most an outsider can see is the changes it brought about in my life or even the fact that there is no way I would be here if it hadn't been proven to me.

 

[DeletedUser]

I guess most of you missed this post. But now we all know the definition of evidence and proof, please provide the evidence that can be found according to spider:



I am not here to bash anything. I hope the first post showed that. I have looked at the sites and tried to find the proof there to back up the evidence.

I am even willing to change my stand in this a bit. I will reform my question:

Please provide me with the evidence that convinced you that there actually is a God.

Maybe some facts that happened to you or something in the bible in combination with other factors.

Again, not trying to bash anything, i just can't figure out why people belief and i really would like to know. This would make me understand the fact that and why people believe.
Because i envy you in some cases. Believing in a divine power does make live easier in some cases.

heres teh thing desi i dont beleive in GOD thtas a christian thing

im open to the idea of god ( little g i explained the differnce in another posting)
im a creationist not a christan or more accurately i beleive in intelligent design as all the scientific evidence ive seen and studdied only makes sence if someting far more advanced then ourselves guided our creation

weather that be instant creation or guided evolution i couldnt say as the only thing we can do is make an educated guess since we have no way to go back in time and accualy see what happened

im posted christan evidence that i found in a quick search im sure there are christan scholars that could inundate you with a ton of evidence but i am not one of them

jdut because im standing up for them while a large number of people bash them doesnt mean i am one of them it simply means as a fellow creationist i cant simply stand by while there trashed constantly without a defense

You're on the track to becoming the next Blondie! Keep up with those wrong assumptions.

rofl you change your post to remove that portion AFTER i respond to it and i get grief about it from all your biddies what else would a person think.


as far as blondie well blondie is a j/w his views are at odds even with other mormons let alone most christans so while they have a few shared beliefs he isnt a solid reprisentation of christianity either only of j/w

 

[DeletedUser3543]

Not sure if this is real or not, but I found it funny


Never quote the Holy Book!

In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox
Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot
be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to
Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's
funny, as well as informative:


Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have
learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as
many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle,
for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be
an abomination ... End of debate.


I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's
Laws and how to follow them.


1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female,
provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims
that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I
own Canadians?


2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.
In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period
of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I
have tried asking, but most women take offence.


4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing
odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour
is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?


5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly
states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or
should I ask the police to do it?


6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination,
Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can
you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?


7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision
have to be 20/20, or is there some wriggle-room here?


8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around
their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How
should they die?


9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops
in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different
kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme
a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the
whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to
death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their
in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable
expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.


Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.


Your adoring fan,

James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction,
and Special Education University of Virginia


(It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian

 

[DeletedUser]

rofl you change your post to remove that portion AFTER i respond to it and i get grief about it from all your biddies what else would a person think.


as far as blondie well blondie is a j/w his views are at odds even with other mormons let alone most christans so while they have a few shared beliefs he isnt a solid reprisentation of christianity either only of j/w

Isn't proof a collection, or reasoning based on/of evidence? It's your time spider, provide us with definitions!
So, you're still claiming this is proof, a collection of evidence? Thanks.

So does this mean I can tell you that you don't know anything that you're posting, like you do to everyone when you provide definitions?
Last edited by xcentric; Yesterday at 11:31 AM.

Yesterday, 07:15 PM - You're initial post with definitions.

So tell me, how is 11:31 AM, AFTER 7:15 PM?

---

I wasn't referring to what Blondie's beliefs are. I was referring to the fact that you both assume a lot. I was thinking of when JR and Blondie discussed how Blondie assumes a lot, and Blondie got half-near to admitting he was wrong at something..

im open to the idea of god ( little g i explained the differnce in another posting)
im a creationist not a christan or more accurately i beleive in intelligent design as all the scientific evidence ive seen and studdied only makes sence if someting far more advanced then ourselves guided our creation

Does this mean that you're open to the theory of ancient astronauts? I mean, that theory, includes an intelligent design, at least in the part of the origins/development of life on Earth, and that theory has more concrete evidence than religion has.

 

[DeletedUser]

So tell me, how is 11:31 AM, AFTER 7:15 PM?

---

I wasn't referring to what Blondie's beliefs are. I was referring to the fact that you both assume a lot. I was thinking of when JR and Blondie discussed how Blondie assumes a lot, and Blondie got half-near to admitting he was wrong at something..

Does this mean that you're open to the theory of ancient astronauts? I mean, that theory, includes an intelligent design, at least in the part of the origins/development of life on Earth, and that theory has more concrete evidence than religion has.

iive not studdied that theory in any detail but who knows its entirely possible

as discussed in another thread the science behind the spontantious generation of a single cell from the supposed primordial soup is scientificaly immpossible to have occured on earth particularly in its infancy

but the possiblity that life was seeded or even manufactured here by a super advanced race ? its possible ... who knows i wasnt there to see lol

but as per my god ( little g) disccussion in such a case that race would then be our creators and in essence be god/gods ( little g)


do i beleive any of this is what happened ? i dunno but do i beleive its possible ? sure its possible

 

[DeletedUser1121]

heres teh thing desi i dont beleive in GOD thtas a christian thing

im open to the idea of god ( little g i explained the differnce in another posting)
im a creationist not a christan or more accurately i beleive in intelligent design as all the scientific evidence ive seen and studdied only makes sence if someting far more advanced then ourselves guided our creation

weather that be instant creation or guided evolution i couldnt say as the only thing we can do is make an educated guess since we have no way to go back in time and accualy see what happened

Thanks for your view on this matter.

im posted christan evidence that i found in a quick search im sure there are christan scholars that could inundate you with a ton of evidence but i am not one of them

Is there anyone on this forum who can or is willing to give me some evidence and is willing to listen to my questions on them?

jdut because im standing up for them while a large number of people bash them doesnt mean i am one of them it simply means as a fellow creationist i cant simply stand by while there trashed constantly without a defense

Hope you see that i am not trying to bash any religion or person here.
Simply trying to educate myself (and hopefully some others).
I enjoy reading other peoples opinion on this matter, simply because i can't even remotely see or agree on most of the things they provide me with. I always wonder what makes them think this way.

 

[DeletedUser]

jdut because im standing up for them while a large number of people bash them doesnt mean i am one of them it simply means as a fellow creationist i cant simply stand by while there trashed constantly without a defense

Speaking strictly for myself and my christianity, it would be greatly appreciated if you didn't stand up for me or my God (big G). He's perfectly capable of defending Himself and me without your help or mine. Defend your own beliefs if you must but never presume that you have the right to speak for another regardless of the labels. Your defense of christian beliefs all the while claiming they are not your own is an insult of the worst kind. If I am trashed for my beliefs, that's my business, not yours.

Thanks for your view on this matter.

Is there anyone on this forum who can or is willing to give me some evidence and is willing to listen to my questions on them?

Hope you see that i am not trying to bash any religion or person here.
Simply trying to educate myself (and hopefully some others).
I enjoy reading other peoples opinion on this matter, simply because i can't even remotely see or agree on most of the things they provide me with. I always wonder what makes them think this way.

Any evidence that is presented for your scrutiny will be based solely on religious opinion and interpretation. If that's what you're looking for, I'm sure you'll find plenty, there's no shortage of religious people with dreams of self glorification. Since you're hoping to educate others, your motives are certainly suspect that you're only looking for more argument, not answers. Even ignorant christianity can smell a trap. However, given how blind religion is, it would be unusual not to find them stuck in those traps and you'll get what you pay for.

Nonetheless, look to yourself for the answers you want, you can do a lot better job of answering them than anyone else can. All else is just stirring up the pot and seeing what floats to the top.

 

[DeletedUser]

Speaking strictly for myself and my christianity, it would be greatly appreciated if you didn't stand up for me or my God (big G). He's perfectly capable of defending Himself and me without your help or mine. Defend your own beliefs if you must but never presume that you have the right to speak for another regardless of the labels. Your defense of christian beliefs all the while claiming they are not your own is an insult of the worst kind. If I am trashed for my beliefs, that's my business, not yours.



Any evidence that is presented for your scrutiny will be based solely on religious opinion and interpretation. If that's what you're looking for, I'm sure you'll find plenty, there's no shortage of religious people with dreams of self glorification. Since you're hoping to educate others, your motives are certainly suspect that you're only looking for more argument, not answers. Even ignorant christianity can smell a trap. However, given how blind religion is, it would be unusual not to find them stuck in those traps and you'll get what you pay for.

Nonetheless, look to yourself for the answers you want, you can do a lot better job of answering them than anyone else can. All else is just stirring up the pot and seeing what floats to the top.

its that kind of shortsightedness that allows athiests to freely bash chrsitanity they way they do

one my entire family is christan i was raised chrsitan therefore i do have a vested intrest and a valid reason to defend it


secondly chrsitain scientists have shown much evidence as to the exsistance of god thats got nothiign to do with religous interpritation or beleif and is simply a differnt views of scientific evidence

the fact is that i may not share you exact views however i do share your right to beleive them as we do have some shared beleifs even if we dont share all of them my friend

so dont be disrespectfull of others views


and lastly its not YOUR christianity its just christianity

 

[DeletedUser]

its that kind of shortsightedness that allows athiests to freely bash chrsitanity they way they do

Actually, I have nothing but the utmost respect for Shea777 and his brand of Christianity.

From what I've read of him, he's more Christian than any of the other "Christians" that I've seen around this board...By a long shot.

Actually, it's YOUR shortsightedness, lspiderl, not his, that has all people, not just atheists, bashing Christianity.

You might want to think long and hard about that.

 

[DeletedUser]

someone thinking someone else has no right to defend there beleif jsut because they dont share the same personal views exactly opens the door to jerks further attacking there beleifs which is by definition shortsighted or ( lacking foresight)

 

[DeletedUser]

Wow! Thank you dcgincc, that's very high praise and I am very touched, I think there is no higher compliment and I really do mean that sincerely

I should mention that when I was trying to think of a character name I had the tv on in the background and either heard the word she or shea and just typed it out. It didn't occur to me at the time that it might be a masculine name but I am a woman

Again, thank you for your words, it made my day!

 

[DeletedUser]

Alright, quit with the hugs already, sheesh.

Just because something is discussed and disagreed upon many times does not mean that it is not true and should be rendered useless.

This is a flawed example ttr. Discussing something does not make it valid or invalid. There is no supporting evidence for religion, whilst there is supporting evidence for science. So while students/teachers may discuss and debate about both, does not make evidentiary equality.

No, it is not possible to prove the existence of God to any who don't seek Him out for themselves, and I'm glad for that. Were it possible then He wouldn't be worth the risk.

What risk? Exactly, no risk. In fact, religious organizations try to make life easier for people accept their faith by providing support groups to those of similar faith, whilst denying those of other faiths (Boy Scouts anyone? How about prison?). People in desperate straights, or in need of some form of physical support are the most vulnerable, and they are quite readily the easiest to convert. You mentioned earlier a time in your life where you were suicidal. The options were deat

the realy funny thing is that yes there is no way ( short of god revealing himself to everyone) to prove the exsitance of god

Then why the hell do you keep saying there's evidence?!?

in the same vien theres no way to PROVE the theory of evolution they can make a strong case fo rit but theres no way short of inventing a time machine and going back to watch it all happen to prove for a fact that it did so its a stalemate either way

Once again, you're wrong spider. We examine evidence held for hundreds, thousands, and millions of years. We're able to examine that, our time machine of sorts, and we see the changes in comparison to today. As well, we're able to, right now, witness evolution in laboratories with lifeforms that have very short lifespans. There is clear evidence of evolution, and yes -- proof.

Does this mean that you're open to the theory of ancient astronauts? I mean, that theory, includes an intelligent design, at least in the part of the origins/development of life on Earth, and that theory has more concrete evidence than religion has.

How about a different thread for that?

(( btw, there is no evidence for the ancient astronaut postulation --- and thus not a theory ))

secondly chrsitain scientists have shown much evidence as to the exsistance of god thats got nothiign to do with religous interpritation or beleif and is simply a differnt views of scientific evidence

Christian Science is fake. It is non-evidentiary and relies instead on posing fallacies to attempt to "usurp the throne" that they believe is held by evolution, big bang, and other scientific facts/theories. Christian science has no scientific base of its own. Instead it takes advantage of people's ignorance on science and scientific evidence. Instead it tries to discredit "real" scientific research and use fallacious reasoning to claim, "they are wrong, so we must be right."

so dont be disrespectfull of others views

Hmm... so you don't disrespect atheist's views? You don't disrespect Islamic views? Am I once again on Bizarro World?

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually, I have nothing but the utmost respect for Shea777 and his brand of Christianity.

From what I've read of him, he's more Christian than any of the other "Christians" that I've seen around this board...By a long shot.

Actually, it's YOUR shortsightedness, lspiderl, not his, that has all people, not just atheists, bashing Christianity.

You might want to think long and hard about that.

Well said dcgincc! I fuly agree.
Especially about the spider part.

Whilst I may disagree with Shea when it comes to how she views the world, I respect it.

Hmm... so you don't disrespect atheist's views? You don't disrespect Islamic views? Am I once again on Bizarro World?

Did you ever leave?

 

[DeletedUser]

ok point out ONE time i INSULTED athiestic beleifs ?






and agian when i insulted ot attacked islamic BELEIFS i disagreed with there claim to being peaceful but never once claimed there beleifs on creation or anthing else were invlaid i simply chalanged there actions theres a distinct differnce


i never attacked athiests beleifs only there closed minded attacking of religion and christianity


so agian you fail utterly in your rather lame attempts to attack me but given your proven inability to distinguish between the simply differnces in definitions of basic words like say proof and evidence which i CLEARLY defined for you im not supprised that you yet agian come at me with false logic

 

[DeletedUser1121]

Any evidence that is presented for your scrutiny will be based solely on religious opinion and interpretation. If that's what you're looking for, I'm sure you'll find plenty, there's no shortage of religious people with dreams of self glorification. Since you're hoping to educate others, your motives are certainly suspect that you're only looking for more argument, not answers. Even ignorant christianity can smell a trap. However, given how blind religion is, it would be unusual not to find them stuck in those traps and you'll get what you pay for.

Nonetheless, look to yourself for the answers you want, you can do a lot better job of answering them than anyone else can. All else is just stirring up the pot and seeing what floats to the top.

Hmm i really hope you aren't that blinded by all the "bashing" that you would think i am trapping anyone into a discussion. I even changed my question because i realised i wasn't going to get the answers i was looking for anyway.

There are no answers on this question, we have concluded that.

What i am curious about (interest in fellow forum users) is why they feel like there is a God. Since i can't see a single reason that would convert me to any religion i have a genuine interest in what would have convinsed others.

So don't feel trapped.

 

[DeletedUser]

Alright, quit with the hugs already, sheesh.

What risk? Exactly, no risk. In fact, religious organizations try to make life easier for people accept their faith by providing support groups to those of similar faith, whilst denying those of other faiths (Boy Scouts anyone? How about prison?). People in desperate straights, or in need of some form of physical support are the most vulnerable, and they are quite readily the easiest to convert. You mentioned earlier a time in your life where you were suicidal. The options were deat

While I don't consider myself a board troll I'm no stranger to them and I always enjoy conversing with people with enough intelligence to discuss a subject openly instead of working to shut out everyone who doesn't agree with them. You are one of those people who discusses and doesn't shut out so I always look forward to hearing from you (that's a hug for you! )

You're absolutely right, religion does prey upon the weak and vulnerable. Have I made it clear it yet how I feel about religion? Being on this side of the fence and therefore having greater exposure, my hatred for it is more than you can know. But here's what religion does as opposed to what I do, religion wants people to worship it and all it does is to that end. Therefore it has to go after the weak and vulnerable. And it's methods are to remove all risk of an accidental one on one confrontation with God. I refuse to look to any religion or person but rather seek only that one on one with God.

Religion is indeed the opiate of the masses because it does remove all risk but if I have understanding then I know that putting myself directly before God is the most dangerous thing I can do.

Believe it or not, you and I are in agreement in regards to religion. I'm in a very difficult position because there is no separate label that I can apply to myself that shows that I do not support religion but that I do believe in God. And I realize that it's difficult for people to accept that this is even possible. I've consistently found myself a woman between 2 worlds. But the point is, I don't have to claim man's religion to be a believer.

In regards to there being no risk in doubt, I stand by that statement. Risk only exists in belief because in belief there is movement, doubt is just a stalemate.

Well said dcgincc! I fuly agree.
Especially about the spider part.

Whilst I may disagree with Shea when it comes to how she views the world, I respect it.


Did you ever leave?

Respect does mean a lot to me, thank you John and the feeling is mutual.

Hmm i really hope you aren't that blinded by all the "bashing" that you would think i am trapping anyone into a discussion. I even changed my question because i realised i wasn't going to get the answers i was looking for anyway.

There are no answers on this question, we have concluded that.

What i am curious about (interest in fellow forum users) is why they feel like there is a God. Since i can't see a single reason that would convert me to any religion i have a genuine interest in what would have convinsed others.

So don't feel trapped.

Religion is wise enough to recognize the desires within a person and strives to offer fulfillment of those desires. First it'll tell you what you want then it'll tell you it can give it to you. It's no surprise that many are taken in by it. I can't see a single reason to convert to it either, not if I care about truth.

 

[DeletedUser3543]

Ironically in the whole science vs religion debate, it will be science that triumphs.

Take all those soldiers that have had amputations. How many of them have spent hour upon hour praying to their God that they will have the limbs replaced? I imagine there has been a lot of time wasted in this fruitless pursuit.

In the meantime, science has been beavering away, and before long - through stem cell research - it will be possible to grow a new limb, maybe not today, tomorrow or the next 50 years, but I'm sure it will happen sooner rather than later.

I guess religion is gonna have to come up with something pretty spectacular to even up that score....